History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedWould you say half of France was English under the Plantagenet?

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Exarchus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Would you say half of France was English under the Plantagenet?
    Posted: 06-May-2005 at 04:54
Everything is in the title.

Would you consider the Plantagenet area (sometimes refered as Angevin Empire) in France was English?

Summary, France was a feudal Kingdom, with the King being loosely the biggest leader and with tons of substates (acting independantly) known as duchies and counties.

The Duchy of Normandy invaded England, and then the County of Anjou  (hence the name Angevin) invaded Normandy and so got England with.
Vae victis!
Back to Top
Frederick Roger View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Jan-2005
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 661
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 11:38

I would more probably consider England ruled by french than the Angevine posessions to be English. Do not forget that most kings of England were more influenced in culture, laguage, etc, by the norman french than the saxon English.

For instance, Lionheart was a rather unknown word at the time his bearer lived. Coeur-de-Lion was the correct form.  

Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Status: Offline
Points: 966
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 15:10
Originally posted by Frederick Roger Frederick Roger wrote:

I would more probably consider England ruled by french than the Angevine posessions to be English. Do not forget that most kings of England were more influenced in culture, laguage, etc, by the norman french than the saxon English.

But the Norman era preceded the Plantagenet one.

Plantagenet kings definately held sway over France at times, Henry II, Edward III and Henry VI but for the most part no.

With the exception of Henry II and Edward I no Plantagenet king could be considered absolute monarch of England.

The English system of government was very different to the rest of Europe. The king was head of a ruling council not an autocrat. Early Plantagenet kings had a problem with this and fought it.

Strong kings like Henry and Edward won but most like Edward II, Henry III, John ect were left humiliated and powerless. By the time of the later Plantagenets and Edward III they just accepted the power share.

Only 3 monarchs were to challege this, Charles I, James II and Richard II. One murdered, one executed and one exiled.

 

Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Status: Offline
Points: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 15:31
short answer: no. long answer: see Frederick Rogers post above.
Back to Top
Exarchus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 15:51
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

But the Norman era preceded the Plantagenet one.

Plantagenet kings definately held sway over France at times, Henry II, Edward III and Henry VI but for the most part no.

With the exception of Henry II and Edward I no Plantagenet king could be considered absolute monarch of England.

The English system of government was very different to the rest of Europe. The king was head of a ruling council not an autocrat. Early Plantagenet kings had a problem with this and fought it.

Strong kings like Henry and Edward won but most like Edward II, Henry III, John ect were left humiliated and powerless. By the time of the later Plantagenets and Edward III they just accepted the power share.

Only 3 monarchs were to challege this, Charles I, James II and Richard II. One murdered, one executed and one exiled.

 



Yeah the Norman era (William I, William II, Henry I, Stephen I) was before the Plantagenet one (Henry II, Richard I, John I, Henry III, Edward I, II, III, Richard II). After Richard II, it's the house of Lancaster that replaced the House of Anjou.

But it's not really the question asked, the question would be rather, would you consider England had really a power over the Plantagenent lands in France?

My answer would be clearly no, first England had a completly different politic system and they ruled with completly different titles and laws in France as mentioned by Paul. Being Dukes and Counts of the Kings of France they had to deal with them about their lands. Some of them tried to fight it, like William I (wounded in battle and died), Henry I (poisoned), Henry II (defeated and died), Richard I (killed in battle), John I (defeated at Bouvines) and Henry III (defeated at Saintes).

Then the turmoil of the hundred years' war started under Edward III, but then it's no longer the Platagenent lands that is in question.

The Platagenet kings themselves moved a lot, sometimes living in Angers (there home city), or Chinon (their residential castle). Though, when John I lost both they were clearly cut off their homeland and started be assimilated in England. Yet then, they didn't rule much on French territories (Aquitaine only) and then Henry III couldn't defeated Louis IX to put the title of Duke of Aquitaine bound to the one of King of England (and not France).

If you talk in cultural influence, I think there is no point in arguing France had a bigger cultural influence over England than the opposite at those times.
 
Vae victis!
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2005 at 13:50

Originally posted by Exarchus Exarchus wrote:

Everything is in the title.

Would you consider the Plantagenet area (sometimes refered as Angevin Empire) in France was English?

No more than I would consider the West Indies or India to be English. Or, for that matter, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Or, at one time, Hanover.

Subject to the same monarch as England is correct.

Quote .

The Duchy of Normandy invaded England, and then the County of Anjou  (hence the name Angevin) invaded Normandy and so got England with.

In his view, William inherited the crown of England from Edward the Confessor. So he invaded England as - self-proclaimed - King of England, not as Duke of Normandy.

 

Back to Top
Exarchus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2005 at 16:26
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

No more than I would consider the West Indies or India to be English. Or, for that matter, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Or, at one time, Hanover.

Subject to the same monarch as England is correct.

.

But Wales was a principality right? And then was subject to the Kings of England directly, right?

Quote
In his view, William inherited the crown of England from Edward the Confessor. So he invaded England as - self-proclaimed - King of England, not as Duke of Normandy.

But his view was usurpating. He based his claim over the English crown on the French law, not the English one. In England, kings had to deal with elections, a system that he destroyed for a time. But I agree he ruled England as King of England and not as Duke of Normandy, but it is the opposite question that's asked here. If you think he ruled Normandy as King of England, or if the Angevin ruled Anjou, Normandy and Aquitaine as King of England (I did that because I'm often facing a prick in another forum who claims half of France was English under their rule and that I might link him this thread once day in a future argument).



Edited by Exarchus
Vae victis!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.