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Forum LockedWomen and Revolution in Iran

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morticia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 13:51
Master Blaster says: “...I am ASTONISHED and deeply troubled that you would take into account the views expressed on a website such as that.....”

While I agree with you regarding the credibility of the website, I also know that an oppressed woman with a tale to tell would speak to anyone who is willing to hear her. I am sure that had she made such statements and remained in Iran, she would probably be executed by now. It was after she fled Iran that she made those statements. Some years ago, here, in the US, a tabloid magazine (The Enquirer), which IMO is totally lacking in credibility, published an article about Frank Gifford (a famous ball player) and his scandalous infidelities towards wife, Kathy Lee Gifford, which were totally true and admitted by both Frank and Kathy Lee. My point is that although the tabloid paper was not credible, the story told was totally true, and, as such, the fact that a website is not credible does not mean that Roya Tolouee’s statements are untrue. Of course, as usually occurs in similar type rape of women cases, it's her word against her offender (a government official)...which translates to: she doesn't stand a chance of an appropriate defense.

Master Blaster says: “If the rapes of Iranian female prisoners inside the Islamic Republic by Iranian government agents do in fact take place (and for the sake of argument, let us assume they do), then these rapes are not condoned by the ruling establishment - the Shia Islamic clergy. The rapes of female prisoners take place because MEN are placed in position of authority over these women without the fear of repercussions for their actions.”

Well, then I ask you: These MEN, which are placed in positions of authority over these women, are they Muslims or non-Muslims? Are these MEN reprimanded or punished in any way for raping women prisoners? Would these raped female prisoners even attempt to report a rape? Has there ever been a complaint filed by a woman prisoner in Iran that she was raped by an official?   As you stated, these MEN have “no fear of any condemnation for consequences for their actions” (btw - if that's not condoning their actions, then I don't know what else to call it), but even you have to admit that sort of behavior should not be tolerated and that at the very least, the women should have the right to report said rapes and have the right to confront her offenders and have them punished in some way for their actions.

Master Blaster says: “Also bear in mind that devout Muslim men who view themselves as fighters in the name of Islam would not dare harm a Muslim woman - even if she were only nominally Muslim.”

And you speak for ALL Muslim men when you state this? Also, bear in mind that Catholics have “priests” who, although considered holy men who have taken a vow of celibacy, have admittedly raped young boys to satisfy their sexual urges. My point is that not all men have the same discipline and control of their instinctive sexual desires. I am sure that some men (no matter what faith, ethnicity, etc.) may go “astray” at one point or another, especially those knowing that these women have no rights and, therefore, can do nothing in their defense.

Master Blaster says: “...it has historically been proven that some men will in fact take advantage of their position and engage in activities that they otherwise would not take part in.”

And how is this the woman’s fault? Why should she be subjected to cruel and inhuman punishment because the MEN had no control of their “needs and desires”? If history has shown that sort of behavior, then all the more reason to make sure it doesn’t happen again.


Master Blaster..... I think you are brilliant, and, although I recognize that any article can be embellished to benefit an affiliated political view, you have to agree that raping women (for any reason) is cruel and unacceptable behavior and something has to be done about it. Oppressed women suffer greatly, not only physically but mentally as well. I have no doubt that most men are gentlemen and protect and honor their female counterparts, but there is always going to be a certain percentage (in any religion) that have some sort of mental disabilities, anger management issues or other impediments which would lead them to contrary behavior. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR RAPING A WOMAN, PERIOD! And when a government does nothing about it, it is surely condoning such behavior. Let me clarify that this is not a "religion" issue for me, it's a "woman's rights" issue. It does not matter if the perpetrator is Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or whatever religious background....the fact is that women are being raped and have no right to accuse and punish her offender. That is unjust, unfair and harsh treatment of women. Rapes will continue as long as the government does nothing to stop them or punish those who rape, and the government will keep doing nothing until women uprise and protest until they turn blue in the face...and then some!      I also realize that if some of these women uprise and protest, they will be KILLED! Not a very comforting thought!

Another question I ask you: If good, honest, Muslim men, know that some women are being unfairly and unjustly raped, why are they not doing anything for those women? Why are they allowing such behavior? Can they not report it to the appropriate government agency (if the female is unable to)? Can they not insist that the government do something about women's right? I find the men just as responsible for the treatment of these women for not supporting them!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 14:51
This is the original article about Roya Toloee, written in Sunday Telegraph , by Philip Sherwell in Washington.
Perhaps is Philip Sherwell a Pro-Shahi traitor, who fled to west after the glory Islamic revolution LOL
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Behzad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 16:13
I'd like to point out that just because someone is anti-IRI, it does not mean he/she is a Shah 'doost'.

Like it has already been said, there is no doubt that the lives of Iranian woman could be a lot better than they are now.

I agree that some of the things going on currently in Iran also occured before the revolution, but that doesn't make it right and they must be changed.

Women should really be able to get any position they want occupation-wise. Today however, Iranian women cannot become judges. Why? Because it is for some reason believed that women are naturally more emotionally sympathetic and thus will be too easy on criminals. I think this is false in most cases because there are women that could effectively take up the duties of a judge.

I however do not take many sources seriously because many are out to make the conditions in Iran look worse than they actually are. Could it be that possibly these women are not totally innocent and have commited crimes?

Not to mention the many false claims the Western press makes up, Iranian Jews having to wear badges anyone?

Equality-wise, it is simple, Men and Women are not equal in the sense that if we were, there would be no distinctions between the two genders. Each gender shows different traits, thus ruling out total equality. Think of it this way: What does equality mean? It means one side must be = to the other side, which I've already mentioned is not true for Men and Women.

This however doesn't mean that the two genders should not be equal in respect to the rights and freedoms they enjoy.

Islam teaches complete respect for women of course. After all, Muhammad himself said that Mothers (who are women) are one's path to heaven and should be totally respected. Yet the IRI does not accomplish this Islamic requirement because Women are in some cases deprived of rights and freedoms.

Khomeini did not like the fact that women had the right to vote, but he could not do much after taking power because they already had been given the right for several years. Does Islam not teach that women should partake in the community and be involved? Without the right to vote, how is this possible?

I'm personally not pro- IRI nor pro-Shah or anything. I'd just prefer a country that treats all its citizens fairly and justly. Though I would not want us to be a mirror of the Western world because because even here women do not enjoy total equality as they are abused, harassed, beaten, and even used as objects. I do not want Iranian Women walking like sluts in the streets of Tehran.

What does everyone think of a Constitutional Monarchy in Iran? And I am not talking about the kind we apparently had under Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, which was totally an absolute monarchy/dictatorship, but the kind in which the King (or Shah in this case) only holds ceremonial powers.

Iran has had 2500+ years of Monarchy. I think it might be in our culture right now and just totally getting rid of it might not be the best.

Either way, a democratic Constituational Monarchy or a Republic would be great as long as they work in the interests of Iranians and only Iranians.

Note: A constitutional monarchy with Reza Pahlavi II as the Shah would be a joke lol.

Long live Mossadegh's memory. Truly a great man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Master_Blaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 22:14

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:


While I agree with you regarding the credibility of the website,

 

The credibility of the website is only in question because the administrators of that site have a specific agenda. The publishers, contributors, and viewers of that website have a vested interest in promoting their agenda, in propagating against the current Iranian state because it is ruled by theocratic Islamists opposed to American and Zionist influence in the Middle East and in Islamic nations.

 

Note: The terms Zionists and Jewish are not interchangeable. A Jew is a person adhering to the Judaic faith or having Hebrew heritage. I am sure you already are aware of this but I would like to reiterate, that Judaism is a faith, a religion thousands of years old, which is akin to Islam, and the Jewish people are of a Semitic background as are the Arabs.

 

Zionism is not Judaism, and Zionists are not Jews. Zionism is a political movement that was started in the late 1880s with the specific purpose of creating a homeland for the Jewish people. Zionists are simply put, Jewish extremists in the same fashion in which Islamists are Muslim radicals.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I did not want to be accused of being anti-Semitic for having attacked the credibility of a pro-Zionist, anti-Islamic website.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

I also know that an oppressed woman with a tale to tell would speak to anyone who is willing to hear her.

 

This is the story of ONE woman. I do not know the specifics of her case, and neither do you, and neither does Mazier. I do not want to side with her or against her based on allegations which were made on an obviously biased website.

 

Iran is not some Fourth World radically fundamentalist nation like Afghanistan, it has a rich history of education and learning, and is one of the most advanced countries of the Islamic world and the Middle East – it is on par with other developing nations, and as such, there are legal precedents in place to deal with such crimes.

 

Also, if her story had been credible, then it would have been picked up by a more credible news agency, would it have not?

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

I am sure that had she made such statements and remained in Iran, she would probably be executed by now.

 

Your assumption is incorrect. As I said just moments ago, there are legal precedents in place, and legal avenues in which this woman can go through to voice her concern. Prior to the election of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (the current president), the previous president, Mohammed Khatami and his reformist following were making progress within the country.

 

I am not trying to paint a rosy picture of Iran or Islam for you. The mullahs who rule over Iran today are not evil, they are trying to do for their land, and their people, what they think is right – unfortunately, they are doing so by force, and one cannot be forced to love God, or love a religion. It is the same with any other political party, the political party in power tries in earnest to enforce their views on the population. Prior to the Islamic Revolution, the Shah of Iran – who was nothing more than a puppet installed, paid, and protected by the CIA after the US government and Great Britain removed the democratically elected president of Iran from power in 1953 due to their own oil interests – also enforced his views upon the population.

 

Mazier is complaining because the political views he shares, and the politicians that his family supported – the Shah- were deposed and driven from power.  These Shahis do not care about the national welfare of Iranian women – they are using it in their propaganda to win back power!

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

It was after she fled Iran that she made those statements.

 

I am going to refrain from passing judgment about her or her accusations until I am completely aware of the issues at hand. I do not know the specifics of the case and I refuse to let myself be influenced by one individual who I do not know, and who may or may not have a political agenda.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Some years ago, here, in the US, a tabloid magazine (The Enquirer), which IMO is totally lacking in credibility, published an article about Frank Gifford (a famous ball player) and his scandalous infidelities towards wife, Kathy Lee Gifford, which were totally true and admitted by both Frank and Kathy Lee.

 

If I recall correctly, the The Enquirer also paid the flight attendant to lure and film Frank Gifford cheating on his wife. It was a set up – and that speaks volumes for the credibility of The National Enquirer and other tabloids.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

My point is that although the tabloid paper was not credible, the story told was totally true, and, as such, the fact that a website is not credible does not mean that Roya Tolouee’s statements are untrue.

 

And my point is that the stories found on a national tabloid and a political blog should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Of course, as usually occurs in similar type rape of women cases, it's her word against her offender (a government official)...which translates to: she doesn't stand a chance of an appropriate defense.


She would not stand a chance if she were a Muslim woman in Chechnya getting raped by drunken Russian soldiers, she would not stand a chance if she were a Muslim woman in Bosnia getting raped by Serbian soldiers, she would not stand a chance if she were a Muslim in Iraq getting raped by American soldiers.


Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Well, then I ask you: These MEN, which are placed in positions of authority over these women, are they Muslims or non-Muslims?

 

These are MEN. They cannot be true Muslims because if they were, then they would not have dared rape a Muslim woman.

 

They may be nominally Muslim – and by that I mean that they may have been born into Muslim families but certainly did not practice the religion.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Are these MEN reprimanded or punished in any way for raping women prisoners?

 

Yes. There are laws in place in both Islam and in Iranian society which punish criminals and wrongdoers – and Islam punishes rapists extremely severly.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Would these raped female prisoners even attempt to report a rape?

 

I cannot answer that. I am going to assume that they would considering Iran is a nation of laws and women would be afforded the right to defend their honor and also bring those who would violate them to justice but rape is greatly underreported in Western societies so I fear that since Islamic cultures place great emphasis on honor, virtue, and purity – it is underreported far more in Muslim societies.

 

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Has there ever been a complaint filed by a woman prisoner in Iran that she was raped by an official? 

 

I am sorry, but I do not know. I am assuming that there obviously would be because Islam and the Islamic clergy view rape as a very serious crime and if a woman was violated, then her family would also seek not only justice but reparations from the family of the rapist.

 

The thing you fail to understand of Islam and rape is that if someone commits a rape or sexual assault –it is not only the woman that is being dishonored, the rapist is endangering himself and the lives of his family members by engaging in such a heinous crime.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

As you stated, these MEN have “no fear of any condemnation for consequences for their actions” (btw - if that's not condoning their actions, then I don't know what else to call it),

 

I was generalizing. I said that when MEN are placed in positions of power where there is little fear of them being condemned and/or having to bear repercussions for their actions – then they will become like wild animals and loot, and rape, and murder – and this has happened throughout the history of mankind and every race is guilty of it.

 

Do not be so quick to pass judgment on Iran. Mr. Taguba, in his findings of atrocities committed by US troops in Abu Ghraib noted that in one incident, he had seen pictures of naked Iraqi female prisoners and there was proof of an American soldier having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner. He did not say that she was being raped.

 

Tell me something mortician, if a female Iraqi is being held in an American-run prison and she is a Muslim barred from engaging in premarital or extramarital sexual relations – do you think then that she willingly had sex with that American soldier? It was rape was it not? Then why did the US not investigate or punish that soldier or other soldiers who were involved? Does that mean that the US military condones rape of Iraqi women?

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

but even you have to admit that sort of behavior should not be tolerated and that at the very least, the women should have the right to report said rapes and have the right to confront her offenders and have them punished in some way for their actions.

 

 

Even I have to admit? Am I misinterpreting this? Why would even I have to admit this? I am not on the side of the culprits. Of course I will say that rape and sexual violence against women and children should never be tolerated and punished with death or castration.

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

And you speak for ALL Muslim men when you state this?

 

I speak from experience. I am sure that any lowlife regardless of religion would rape a woman if there were fear of retribution but I am saying that a devout Muslim, God-fearing Muslim would not because they perceive all Muslim women as being their sisters and even refer to them as such.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Also, bear in mind that Catholics have “priests” who, although considered holy men who have taken a vow of celibacy, have admittedly raped young boys to satisfy their sexual urges.

 

The Roman Catholic faith does not bind men and women of different economic, ethnic, and racial backgrounds as the Islamic faith does. The comparison is invalid.

 

If you look at the history of the Roman Catholic faith, you will notice that those individuals with homosexual tendencies were often sent to monasteries to commit themselves to God – and instead of committing themselves to the values of Christ – they instead engaged in homosexual behavior and often took advantage of younger children –this was common practice in the medieval monasteries of Europe, and even the Popes of Rome raped women and violated children. This type of behavior is not found amongst Muslim clerics or devout Muslims.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

My point is that not all men have the same discipline and control of their instinctive sexual desires.

And my point is that devout Muslim men would have this discipline because their faith instructs them to defend the honor of Muslim women – not to violate it.

 

Why is it that the Islamic fighters in Chechnya have never once raped a Muslim Chechen woman or even a Russian woman residing in Chechnya (about 50% of population of Chechnya is composed of Orthodox Christian or atheist Russians) but the Russian soldiers indulge themselves in the mass rapes of Chechen women? Why is it that the Islamic fighters do not rape Russian or Chechen women? It is because their Islamic faith forbids it.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

I am sure that some men (no matter what faith, ethnicity, etc.) may go “astray” at one point or another, especially those knowing that these women have no rights and, therefore, can do nothing in their defense.

 

I keep repeating myself here but I am telling you that women do have rights under Islam and in Iranian society. They are just not as liberated as Western women but that goes for 75% of the known world.

 

Is the situation for women in Iran bad? Yes. Is it as bad as Mazier makes it out to be? Hell no. Have the rights of women taken a backseat to the Islamist policies of Iran? Yes. Is reform being made? Yes, and that will take time.


Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

And how is this the woman’s fault? Why should she be subjected to cruel and inhuman punishment because the MEN had no control of their “needs and desires”?

 

Of course it is not the fault of the female victim. I never said it was. I am fully in support of executing or castrating any rapist or pedophile – even on their first offense.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

If history has shown that sort of behavior, then all the more reason to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

 

Unfortunately, it is all too common. Did Americans not rape Native American women? Did Americans in the then Texas Republic not rape Mexican women? Did Americans not rape Vietnamese women? Are the Americans not raping Iraqi women? There have been at least 13 documented cases of American soldiers raping Iraqi females since the beginning of the war – why did the Pentagon not take this seriously? Why was it not front-page news in America? Was it because the Pentagon, and the American press, and the American military condone such behavior or is it because the national media outlets feared a backlash from the conservative right, they did not want to appear anti-American.

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Master Blaster..... I think you are brilliant,

 

Thank you, but I think you give me too much undeserved credit.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

and, although I recognize that any article can be embellished to benefit an affiliated political view, you have to agree that raping women (for any reason) is cruel and unacceptable behavior and something has to be done about it.

 

Of course I agree.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Oppressed women suffer greatly, not only physically but mentally as well.

 

I am not trying to glorify Islam; it has its faults, as does any other man-made invention. And I too want Iranian, Muslim, Asian, Eastern European, Latina, etc. women and girls to be able to have access to the same equality and the same freedoms as women in America and the West do – but I realize that vilifying an entire religion or an entire government is not going to accomplish that. What Mazier is trying to do is vilify the Islamic faith, and the Islamist-minded government of Iran – and all I am doing is telling him that rape and sexual crimes do not go hand in hand with any particular religion or race of people. The problems with men taking advantage of women are found in every society and they existed before the Islamic Revolution in Iran and they will exist even after until men learn to respect women in all societies.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

I have no doubt that most men are gentlemen and protect and honor their female counterparts,

 

You have more faith than men that I do. Men are inherently evil. For the sake of humanity, I hope that you are right.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

but there is always going to be a certain percentage (in any religion) that have some sort of mental disabilities, anger management issues or other impediments which would lead them to contrary behavior.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR RAPING A WOMAN, PERIOD!

 

I agree 100% There is never an excuse for raping a woman, or sexually molesting a child, and I am appalled that sex predators in the United States and other countries are not dealt with as harshly as they are in Islamic societies where rapists are typically hung to death or executed for violating a woman.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

And when a government does nothing about it, it is surely condoning such behavior.

 

The government is not idle. As I said before, there exist, legal precedents in Islam, and in Iranian society to deal with criminality and criminal behavior at all levels.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Let me clarify that this is not a "religion" issue for me, it's a "woman's rights" issue.

 

This was only made a religion issue because of the way Mazier chooses to present it. If the Martians (hypothetically speaking) ruled Iran, then he would have vilified the Martian race instead of arguing for the civil rights of women. He is using this merely as a pawn. He and his kind do not care for the well being of women – they only care to see his own political types in power again. If his kind cares so much about the rights of women –then why is he not protesting against the atrocities committed by Russian soldiers in Chechnya? Or the rapes of African women in Sub-Saharan Africa or any other place in the world where women suffer? You should now know the answer to that.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

It does not matter if the perpetrator is Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or whatever religious background....the fact is that women are being raped and have no right to accuse and punish her offender.

 

I agree wholeheartly.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

That is unjust, unfair and harsh treatment of women. Rapes will continue as long as the government does nothing to stop them or punish those who rape, and the government will keep doing nothing until women uprise and protest until they turn blue in the face...and then some!     

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

I also realize that if some of these women uprise and protest, they will be KILLED! Not a very comforting thought!

 

No, they will not. Women can protest in a dignified and peaceful manner for their rights in Iran, it is when they attack the virtues of Islam that their protests will be put down. Women are allowed to receive an education, obtain divorce, and gain employment in Iran, they are also allowed to walk out of their houses without being accompanied by a male relative, they are allowed to wear makeup, purchase lingerie, go to malls, etc. They are not allowed to drink or have premarital sexual relations or engage in prostitution and other vices.

 

Of course the IRI does force all Muslim Iranian women to wear the chador or veil but many women wore the veil before the Islamic Revolution and would do so willingly even in a secular and democratic Iran.

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Another question I ask you: If good, honest, Muslim men, know that some women are being unfairly and unjustly raped, why are they not doing anything for those women?

 

 

First of all, every single rape against a woman or child is unfair and unjust.

 

American troops know that Iraqi women are being unfairly, unjustly raped by other American troops – why are they not doing anything about it?

 

And also, bear in mind, that there is only so much one person can do. Iran has a 40% unemployment rate, and as is human nature, people will first worry about their own well being before they seek to aid the well being of others.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Why are they allowing such behavior? Can they not report it to the appropriate government agency (if the female is unable to)?

 

I really do not know the answer to that. Why do 80% of rapes in the United States go unreported?

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Can they not insist that the government do something about women's right? I find the men just as responsible for the treatment of these women for not supporting them!  

 

You are expecting far too much in far too short a period of time. Recall that it was not until the 1920s that women received the right to vote in America, and that until the Renaissance and even during it, Christian European women were considered property of their husbands, brothers, and fathers, and hence, their marriages were arranged?

 

The point is that you are expecting that an Islamic people like the Iranians install Western style norms, values, and systems of governance in a matter of decades whereas it took Europe at least 2000 years to develop this style of democracy and equal rights which we take for granted today. Iran, India, China, and Iraq will develop in accordance to their own histories and in their own time – you should not judge non-Westerners, non-Americans in the same fashion as you do other Westerners, this would be an unfair comparison. Do Iranians come up to you and ask you why Americans do not live with their parents or put their parents in nursing homes instead of looking after them in their old age? Do Iranians judge you for having premarital sexual relations or wearing mini skirts or bikinis? No, of course they do not, for you and I as Westerners, have a different upbringing, and a different history and culture than them.

 

Behzad, I commend you. That was a very good post.Clap

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 23:39
Originally posted by master_blaster master_blaster wrote:

Mazier is complaining because the political views he shares, and the politicians that his family supported – the Shah- were deposed and driven from power.  These Shahis do not care about the national welfare of Iranian women – they are using it in their propaganda to win back power!

Again, i am not pro shahi, as behzad said to be anti IRI doesn't mean he/she is pro shahi.

So you assume i want to win back my power? which power? i have never had power in Iran. Do you think i will go back to Iran and will ascend to the Throne as Shah Maziar the first?
Women suffer in Iran accept it or not, and for sure Iranian will rise again Mullahs some day and they will vote for a liberal democracy in Iran.
I will add more crimes which Mullahs do everyday to Iranian women.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 15:24
Behzad - Welcome to the Women’s History forum and thank you for your enlightening post regarding this topic. Hopefully, some day the people of Iran (men and women) will find some common ground in which to co-exist harmoniously.

Maziar - Thank you for behaving! Always remember that there is no need to offend others’ religion, ethnicity, etcetera to get your point across. The whole idea behind this thread is to bring awareness to all regarding the struggles that women face in Iran (not only in Iran but all around the world, however, this thread is on Iranian women). Let’s show these women that they are not alone, that others are aware and feel their pain and restrictions, and that there is hope for them to someday feel the same freedom and equality that men experience.

Master Blaster - whom I thoroughly enjoy reading and who has a way of putting things in perspectives. Although I agree that the treatment of these women has been traditional and cultural for centuries, it does not mean that those same conditions should remain the same for all eternity. I have already stated that such changes take time....but some steps (no matter how small) must be taken. You seem to defend the system that is keeping these women from advancing, even though you indicate they are “doing what they feel is the right thing to do” but “unfortunately by force”.

Master Blaster says: “This is the story of ONE woman."

Yes, ONE BRAVE woman who had the courage to speak out and tell of her experience. Hopefully, maybe others will now follow suit!

Master Blaster says: “I said that when MEN are placed in positions of power where there is little fear of them being condemned and/or having to bear repercussions for their actions – then they will become like wild animals and loot, and rape, and murder – and this has happened throughout the history of mankind and every race is guilty of it.”

And so that makes said behavior OK? As I said before, the mere fact that it’s been occurring throughout history does not make it right...and efforts should be made to gradually change that mentality and learn how to exercise control accordingly.

Master Blaster says the following:
“... naked Iraqi female prisoners and there was proof of an American soldier having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner”

“...if a female Iraqi is being held in an American-run prison and she is a Muslim barred from engaging in premarital or extramarital sexual relations...”

“Then why did the US not investigate or punish that soldier or other soldiers who were involved? Does that mean that the US military condones rape of Iraqi women?”

“Did Americans not rape Native American women? Did Americans in the then Texas Republic not rape Mexican women? Did Americans not rape Vietnamese women? Are the Americans not raping Iraqi women? There have been at least 13 documented cases of American soldiers raping Iraqi females since the beginning of the war – why did the Pentagon not take this seriously? Why was it not front-page news in America? Was it because the Pentagon, and the American press, and the American military condone such behavior or is it because the national media outlets feared a backlash from the conservative right, they did not want to appear anti-American."

Plus various other anti-America/American/Americanism comments

May I ask what all this ranting and raving is really about? I have great respect for you, Master Blaster, but I have to be honest and express that I resent your numerous anti-American comments on this topic. Why are you doing this? Is it because I am a American? It seems to me that you are now doing the same thing you accused Maziar of doing. Let me clarify that I am not HERE as an American, but as a WOMAN, whose main interest is in bringing awareness regarding women’s poor treatment and struggle worldwide (this particular thread is on Iranian women). Your anti-American comments are not well taken and I ask that you cease and desist. If you are not comfortable with an American woman discussing an Iranian woman, then merely stating so should suffice and I will merely back off.

Master Blaster says:   
“The point is that you are expecting that an Islamic people like the Iranians install Western style norms, values, and systems of governance in a matter of decades whereas it took Europe at least 2000 years to develop this style of democracy and equal rights which we take for granted today. Iran, India, China, and Iraq will develop in accordance to their own histories and in their own time – you should not judge non-Westerners, non-Americans in the same fashion as you do other Westerners, this would be an unfair comparison. Do Iranians come up to you and ask you why Americans do not live with their parents or put their parents in nursing homes instead of looking after them in their old age? Do Iranians judge you for having premarital sexual relations or wearing mini skirts or bikinis? No, of course they do not, for you and I as Westerners, have a different upbringing, and a different history and culture than them."

It was not my intention to, nor do I feel that I have judged anything or anyone. If bringing forth stories of women who have been poorly treated is judging a culture and offends others, then how are these women ever going to be heard? How are these women ever going to advance and see any progress if men turn their backs on their struggle (or minimize the impact of their struggle) and defend the very system that is keeping them trapped? Women’s rights should be an openly discussed topic no matter what cultural or religious background applies. The words and phrases written here certainly won’t change anything , but don’t tell me I’m being judgmental when all I am doing is bringing awareness of the progress (and/or lack thereof) of women’s woes. The bottom line is that WOMEN are human beings and should have the same rights and freedom that MEN human beings experience, irrespective of cultural or religious beliefs.


    

Edited by morticia - 08-Jun-2006 at 15:57
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Originally posted by Maziar Maziar wrote:

Again, i am not pro shahi, as behzad said to be anti IRI doesn't mean he/she is pro shahi.

I had assumed as much based on the content of your posts.

Originally posted by Maziar Maziar wrote:

So you assume i want to win back my power? which power? i have never had power in Iran. Do you think i will go back to Iran and will ascend to the Throne as Shah Maziar the first?

 

I was speaking metaphorically.

 

Originally posted by Maziar Maziar wrote:

Women suffer in Iran accept it or not, and for sure Iranian will rise again Mullahs some day and they will vote for a liberal democracy in Iran.

 

Women suffer throughout the world. Why are you not then concerned of the plight of the entire female gender instead of focusing specifically on Iranian women? I will tell you why. It is because you seek to use the plight of Iranian women to further your own agenda and the agenda of the anti-IRI dissident groups –be they pro-Shahi or Mossadeghists.

 

This may surprise you Mazier, but I too hope for a secular, and democratic Iran one day – but I want democratization for Iran to be a peaceful process and I want her to be proud of her Islamic heritage – I do not want to see a democratic Iran founded on anti-Islamic hate which is what the articles you post tend to propogate.

 

Originally posted by Maziar Maziar wrote:

I will add more crimes which Mullahs do everyday to Iranian women.

 

You are free to do as you wish.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:


Master Blaster - whom I thoroughly enjoy reading and who has a way of putting things in perspectives.

 

Muchas gracias senorita.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Although I agree that the treatment of these women has been traditional and cultural for centuries, it does not mean that those same conditions should remain the same for all eternity.

 

Your assertion is correct in that just because these are the traditions of other cultures – it do

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

  You seem to defend the system that is keeping these women from advancing, even though you indicate they are “doing what they feel is the right thing to do” but “unfortunately by force”.


I am not defending the system. I am questioning the validity of the accusations, and the credibility of the accusers.


Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Master Blaster says: “This is the story of ONE woman."

Yes, ONE BRAVE woman who had the courage to speak out and tell of her experience. Hopefully, maybe others will now follow suit!


Her story has not been collaborated and has been twisted by opportunists who seek to use it for their own advantage.

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Master Blaster says: “I said that when MEN are placed in positions of power where there is little fear of them being condemned and/or having to bear repercussions for their actions – then they will become like wild animals and loot, and rape, and murder – and this has happened throughout the history of mankind and every race is guilty of it.”

And so that makes said behavior OK?

 

Of course not – it is unacceptable!

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

As I said before, the mere fact that it’s been occurring throughout history does not make it right...and efforts should be made to gradually change that mentality and learn how to exercise control accordingly.


I never claimed that the rape of women in wartime was ever justified. I merely pointed out that it has always taken place and it is taking place now even as we speak and that it is not only found inside of Iran but in all elements of every society, and every culture.

 

It is not right that it took place en masse in the past but that is all the more reason for us to be vigorous in our efforts to bring it to the forefront so that it may be prevented in the present and completely eradicated in the future.
 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Plus various other anti-America/American/Americanism comments


You are misinterpreting my statements. I am not anti-America, anti-American, nor am I opposed to Americanism.

 

If I were anti-American, then I would have stated half truths and lies similar to the ones posted on the blogs you and Mazier have posted as sources.

 

If I were anti-American, then I would blame America for the crimes committed by some American soldiers, but I did not.

 

I do not blame America. I blame the men who committed these crimes.

 

You are misconstruing my argument for anti-Americanism.

 

If I said to you that Americans enslaved the Black race, then would you also accuse me of anti-Americanism?

 

Of course not, since it is simple historical fact that the Americans enslaved the Blacks of West Africa.

 

I AM TRYING TO POINT OUT TO YOU THAT THE SAME WRONGS YOU SEE IN OTHER SOCIETIES ARE ALSO PRESENT IN YOUR OWN SOCIETY – AND THAT IS NOT ANTI-AMERICANISM ON MY PART.

 
Why are you so defensive? Are you implying that an American soldier or American male would never commit rape?

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

May I ask what all this ranting and raving is really about? I have great respect for you, Master Blaster, but I have to be honest and express that I resent your numerous anti-American comments on this topic. Why are you doing this?

 

I pointed out crimes that occurred in American history and crimes that continue to occur in Iraq and the perpetrators are American and Coalition troops – I fail to see how that makes me appear anti-American. Fact is fact. If I say that atrocities and sexual violence against Iraqi women occurred at Abu Ghraib and American soldiers committed these crimes – then I say so because it is fact, and not because I am anti-American. I did not say that America or Americans condone these crimes or that every single member of the American forces is guilty of taking part, I only said what every news organization in the world reported it.

 

I pointed it out in order to try to convince you that the problem of rape, and the subjugation of women does not take place because of Islam or Muslims or Iranians, or because of Christianity or Americans – women are oppressed and preyed upon by men and man is the only one to blame – not America, not Iran, not Islam, and not Christianity.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

  Is it because I am a American?

 

No. I am only pointing out to you the flaws found in all men, and as you are an American, I focus on American society.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

  It seems to me that you are now doing the same thing you accused Maziar of doing. Let me clarify that I am not HERE as an American, but as a WOMAN, whose main interest is in bringing awareness regarding women’s poor treatment and struggle worldwide (this particular thread is on Iranian women).

 

I am not guilty of generating the same type of misinformation Mazier because all I have done is give you the most basic facts of events that have occurred in American history. I have not altered it in anyway, and if you wish to do so, you are more than free to browse the Internet or speak with a historian and you will come across the same information as I have posted in regards to rape in wars in which the United States has partaken.

 

The difference between Mazier and my posts are that whereas Mazier blames Islam, and the Islamic interpretation of Iranian Muslims for the crimes that SOME men perpetrate against women.

 

I, on the other hand am not blaming America, or American values, or the Christian faith, or Americanism (I believe the correct term in Americana) for the actions of SOME men who took sexually assaulted women in wartime.

 

Do you see the discrepancy?  He is blaming Islam for crimes committed by some Iranian agents. I am not blaming America or Christianity for the crimes committed by some American agents.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

  Your anti-American comments are not well taken and I ask that you cease and desist.

 

My comments are not anti-American. You have misinterpreted them. I only brought up issues that are commonplace in all societies.

 

If I say that 100,000 German women in East Berlin were raped and gang raped by Russian troops following the Soviet capture of that city, does that make me anti-Russian?

 

If I say that 1 million German women throughout Germany were raped and gang raped by Russian troops following the Soviet occupation of the eastern parts of that country, does that make me anti-Russian?

 

I am not anti-Russian, and I am certainly not anti-American for all I have done is pointed out historical facts.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

If you are not comfortable with an American woman discussing an Iranian woman, then merely stating so should suffice and I will merely back off.


I am absolutely comfortable with a woman of any background discussing the rights of women who may be of a different background than her own.


Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

It was not my intention to, nor do I feel that I have judged anything or anyone.

 

You are free to possess your own personal opinion, all I ask is that you refrain from forming such opinions until you are fully informed of the situation at hand.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

If bringing forth stories of women who have been poorly treated is judging a culture and offends others, then how are these women ever going to be heard?

 

Their stories can be told without being twisted in such a fashion to make it appear that it is Islam and not the actions of some deranged men which is responsible for the mistreatment of Iranian women.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

How are these women ever going to advance and see any progress if men turn their backs on their struggle (or minimize the impact of their struggle) and defend the very system that is keeping them trapped?

 

Education.

 

Bear in mind that these struggles are not as rampant as you may believe them to be and they can also be found in Western societies.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Women’s rights should be an openly discussed topic no matter what cultural or religious background applies.

 

The rights of all persons, men, women, and children (especially the latter two) ought to be discussed openly.

 

Did you not accuse me of being anti-American when all I did was openly discuss the suffering inflicted upon non-American women by American men?

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

The words and phrases written here certainly won’t change anything , but don’t tell me I’m being judgmental when all I am doing is bringing awareness of the progress (and/or lack thereof) of women’s woes.

 

Do not be so unsure. Civil discussion is always a positive. And if nothing else, at least the two of us and anyone else who may come across this will be more informed about the issue.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

The bottom line is that WOMEN are human beings and should have the same rights and freedom that MEN human beings experience, irrespective of cultural or religious beliefs.

 

Of course women should have the same rights and freedoms as their male counterparts, I hope that all societies and cultures of the world will one day be at the same level as America, and other Western nations in obtaining these rights for women in their own societies, but keep in mind, that although women in the West have certain rights in regards to earning wages, education, voting, etc. – it does not mean that non-Western women do not have any rights at all. I want to emphasize that women are in fact respected in Islam and in Islamic societies; the victimization of women in Muslim lands that you see on television is not due to the fact that they are Muslim but rather that these peoples are poor, uneducated, and underdeveloped. Education, and modernization (and not necessarily Westernization), is the key to the social advancement of women in every society – berating Islam will not achieve anything.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 00:30
Originally posted by Morticia Morticia wrote:

Maziar - Thank you for behaving! Always remember that there is no need to offend others’ religion, ethnicity, etcetera to get your point across.
 
Have you ever seen any post from me which offends religion or ethnicity of other people? Confused I have been even attacked by my own people becouse i have asked Iranian forumers to not offened Arabs and respect them as humans, in one of my posts. But so is the life, no matter what you say there is always someone who don't like it and attack you.Dead
 
Quote The whole idea behind this thread is to bring awareness to all regarding the struggles that women face in Iran (not only in Iran but all around the world, however, this thread is on Iranian women). Let’s show these women that they are not alone, that others are aware and feel their pain and restrictions, and that there is hope for them to someday feel the same freedom and equality that men experience.
 
i aimed at doing this from the beginn on. That's why i have opened this topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 01:28
Originally posted by Master Blaster Master Blaster wrote:

I had assumed as much based on the content of your posts.

I don't know which one of my posts has made you think like that, but anyway i hope you know now you were wrong.

Quote I was speaking metaphorically.

and you have let me to appear in a bad light.
 
Quote Women suffer throughout the world. Why are you not then concerned of the plight of the entire female gender instead of focusing specifically on Iranian women?
 
I don't understand why do you ask me that? I am awar that women suffer throughout the world, but i didn't want to talk about women of the world, i wanted to talk about Iranian women. So all your posts and disscussions are only becouse you don't like me to talk about Iranian women???
 
Quote I will tell you why. It is because you seek to use the plight of Iranian women to further your own agenda and the agenda of the anti-IRI dissident groups
 
Wrong, i don't use their plight, the plight was brought by Mullahs, women suffer under Mullahs regime and i try to talk about it. Btw, could you tell me why are you so fervently deffending the IRI?
 
Quote

This may surprise you Mazier, but I too hope for a secular, and democratic Iran one day

 
I want to believe that, but i can't. How could you deffend a theocracy system which believes politic and religion are inseparable and to be secular in the same time? How could you deffend a system which don't allow the people to be free, and like democracy?
 
Quote but I want democratization for Iran to be a peaceful process and I want her to be proud of her Islamic heritage
 
Couldn't you imagine perhaps there are people in Iran who don't want to be proud of islamic heritage? If you believe in democracy, so you have to respect this people too, in the same manner they have to respect Muslim people.
 
Quote I do not want to see a democratic Iran founded on anti-Islamic hate.
 
a democracy which spread hate against Islam or any other ideology is not a democracy at all. No one who believes in democracy will want this.
 
Although i said befor i will in no way disscusse here about Islam, but in this case i have to say criticism is not the words of hate, and this is not offend and insult against Islam. Against, if you believe in democracy you should be tolerant. In a democratic system no one should fear to criticize and to have doubt on Islam. A person who believes in democracy should not dismiss another people's ideas and critics and claim they are offending Islam.


Edited by Maziar - 09-Jun-2006 at 01:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 09:18
Master Blaster says: “Why are you so defensive? Are you implying that an American soldier or American male would never commit rape?”

No, not being defensive as I was not offended by your comments, but just overwhelmed by all the “anti-American” inferences you made (which btw were unnecessary – simply mentioning one or two examples would have surely given me the point). However, I never implied that “American males would never commit rape” (where do you get that from?)as I usually refer to "males" in general. This is a thread about Iranian women and how we got from there to Americans this and Americans that, I don’t know. In any event, I appreciate and thank you for the clarification.

Master Blaster says: “Did you not accuse me of being anti-American when all I did was openly discuss the suffering inflicted upon non-American women by American men?”

That's find and dandy, but, again, you’re off topic. I simply asked you to please cease and desist with the anti-American comments. Save them for when I open the “American Woman” topic. This particular thread is about Iranian women and their struggle for basic human rights, which, although improved, is far from the equality women truly seek and desire– not only in Iran, but all over the world.

Master Blaster says: “Civil discussion is always a positive. And if nothing else, at least the two of us and anyone else who may come across this will be more informed about the issue.”

I totally agree. Communication is vital for humans to relate to and to learn from one another. I have learned that although the Iranian woman’s progress has been slow, it has had some reforms. I recently read that more Iranian women are attending schools now. But women everywhere still have a ways to go, and they must keep fighting and peacefully protesting so that their causes will remain up front and center and not forgotten or ignored.

Maziar says: “…if you believe in democracy you should be tolerant. In a democratic system no one should fear to criticize and to have doubt on Islam. A person who believes in democracy should not dismiss another people's ideas and critics and claim they are offending Islam. “

I agree with Maziar in that history has shown us that everything is debatable, and, as has been demonstrated in many topics here at AE, there are many sides to one story and different views on any particular subject. Every issue has pros and cons and I find it refreshing to be able to openly discuss a topic without the fear of inadvertently offending anyone’s personal preferences – it is hard to do and there are limitations. History has also shown us that PERFECTION does not exist…nothing is perfect (modifications for the betterment of mankind (and womankind) should always be an option). One of the benefits of a free society is to allow each person the option of choices. However, in order to make a well informed decision, all views (pros and cons) must be thoroughly analyzed to come to the right conclusion of what is best for each individual and their respective families.

Question: Do men feel threatened by women's movements? or are most men supportive of women's advancements? Are men fearful that they will not be able to control the women's actions once they've establish some independence? One forumer here posted that he was in favor of women having "some" rights, but that he feared some would become "sluts". Is that a general consensus of the Iranian man's thoughts towards women's rights?

I note that most of the men who participated here are supportive of women's advancement(to a certain extent). However, having contact with the "western world" was probably influential in some way. But what about the Iranian men who have had little or no western contact, what are their true feelings about the advancement of women. Do they condone or condemn basic human rights for women?



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Originally posted by Morticia Morticia wrote:

Question: Do men feel threatened by women's movements? or are most men supportive of women's advancements? Are men fearful that they will not be able to control the women's actions once they've establish some independence? One forumer here posted that he was in favor of women having "some" rights, but that he feared some would become "sluts". Is that a general consensus of the Iranian man's thoughts towards women's rights?

 
Yes Morty, In a patriarchal muslim society like Iran the men fear to lose control above women. For sure there are iranian men who don't think like that, but they are a minority and they are mostly educated and secular people.
 
Quote I note that most of the men who participated here are supportive of women's advancement(to a certain extent). However, having contact with the "western world" was probably influential in some way. But what about the Iranian men who have had little or no western contact, what are their true feelings about the advancement of women. Do they condone or condemn basic human rights for women?
 
You are right, the contact with west influences people as well. Judging about people in Iran who never had contact to west is not easy. There are in all Iran some tribes and people where women live in equality with men. Like mazandaran and gilan in north, or Zoroastrian people in central Iran. Generally i think you are right in this point, people who never had contact with west think they have to control their wives, or they are not even awar, that there is something you call it "women right"



Edited by Maziar - 10-Jun-2006 at 11:12
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In my quest to find unbiased views regarding the women's struggles in Iran, I came across a few articles which I wanted to share with all here. I urge both Maziar and Master Blaster (and of course all others who wish to participate) to comment on their accuracies and/or inaccuracies. I found these articles informative and enlightening in both the cultural and political aspects of the Iranian people.

This one, for example,although an old article from 2000 was written by Mehrangiz Kar (a woman) who clearly defines the pros and cons facing Iranian women and their struggles under the system. She discusses what Iranian women have lost on the orders of revolutionary and religious zealots, she writes about what women have succeeded in achieving over the past two decades through their own efforts, and actually makes positive predictions (prognosis) of what the future holds for Iranian women.

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2000/April/Women/



I learned quite a bit about the women's movement in Iran from this article which chronologically (1850-2000) states the progression of same. It also enlightened me about the cultural and political aspects of the Iranians. Again, I urge Maziar and Master Blaster to comment on its credibility.

http://www.iranian.com/History/2000/March/Women/index3.html



Another, more recent article (2004) written by Donna M. Hughes, who is a Professor & Carlson Endowed Chair in Women’s Studies of the University of Rhode Island for the Committee in Support of Referendum in Iran
Washington, D.C. (July 7, 2004) and for the Canadian Committee for Democracy in Iran, Toronto, Canada      (July 8, 2004). This also brings forth an in depth analysis of the women's crisis in Iran. I particularly embraced her statement, “Those of us with freedom of speech and freedom of association, which are denied to activists in Iran, must use them to support the freedom fighters in Iran." "... there are millions of people who want to be free.”

http://www.wfafi.org/only-democracy.htm



On the other side of the coin, this article, although a bit alarming, still captures another side of the women's struggles, and I feel it's views should be presented and discussed as well. It's about the women who have been executed and those still on "death row".

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1088

    
    
    
    

Edited by morticia - 11-Jun-2006 at 10:16
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I just wanted to congratulate you all for an excellent thread. Your debate is being carried out respectfully and intelligently - it's very, very nice to see. :)
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Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

No, not being defensive as I was not offended by your comments, but just overwhelmed by all the “anti-American” inferences you made (which btw were unnecessary – simply mentioning one or two examples would have surely given me the point). However, I never implied that “American males would never commit rape” (where do you get that from?)as I usually refer to "males" in general.

 

Rest assured that I am not anti-American, and the comments I made were not in reference to anti-American sentiment.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

This is a thread about Iranian women and how we got from there to Americans this and Americans that, I don’t know. In any event, I appreciate and thank you for the clarification.

 

I wanted to convey to you that this type of unacceptable behavior – the molestation and suppression of women – is found in every cultural. I just used your own culture as an example as you would be able to relate to it.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

That's find and dandy, but, again, you’re off topic. I simply asked you to please cease and desist with the anti-American comments. Save them for when I open the “American Woman” topic.

 

And I, myself, must request that you cease from referring to me as anti-American or labeling my comments as being anti-American. You are misinterpreting the message  - and that is that women suffer mental abuse from sexual or physical assault in all societies.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

This particular thread is about Iranian women and their struggle for basic human rights, which, although improved, is far from the equality women truly seek and desire– not only in Iran, but all over the world.

 

True. Unfortunately, progressive takes time and education. I fear that it will not be in our lifetimes that the female gender will achieve equality on the world stage as cultures and traditions based on male chauvinism are reluctant to accept change but I do feel that there is immense hope for Iranian women. Iran has one of the more educated societies in the Middle East and especially in the Islamic World. The current ruling regime in Iran, the IRI, if composed of religious conservatives – not wholly of Islamic fundamentalists as the Taliban were. There are moderate mullahs within Iran and inside the government (former President Mohammed Khatami is just one example) who realize the importance of education for women. As far as I am aware, it is also the only Islamic country that gives women the right to initiate divorce. This may not appear as much, but it is a victory for Iranian women – and shows the flexibility of the Islamist regime.

 

 

What you must understand is that the women of Iran are not suppressed in the same manner as the women of Taliban Afghanistan were. Iranian women have access to education, they can shop for make-up and lingerie in malls, go out for coffee, etc. The oppression that Iranian women suffer is comparable than the oppression suffered by their male counterparts in that all Muslim Iranians are forced to adhere to Islamic codes of conduct, the rights of free speech, free press, etc. are suppressed.

 


Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Question: Do men feel threatened by women's movements? or are most men supportive of women's advancements?


I believe Mazier has already answered this, and I tend to agree with him. Men who are threatened by women's movements tend to be close-minded, undereducated, male chauvinists whereas the men who support women's movements tend to be open-minded, and come from liberal or moderate, educated backgrounds.

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

Are men fearful that they will not be able to control the women's actions once they've establish some independence?


That is a concern amongst many men. They fear that modernization will bring with it other Western vices such as the sexual liberation of women, and promiscuity. These concerns may be unfounded but they are present amongst Iranian men.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

One forumer here posted that he was in favor of women having "some" rights, but that he feared some would become "sluts". Is that a general consensus of the Iranian man's thoughts towards women's rights?


I don't think it is a general consensus amongst Iranian women but it definitely is a concern for some but again, this is nothing new to Iran, this type of thinking is typical for male chauvinists.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2000/April/Women/


 

This is an OPINION piece. The editors have chosen to publish it in the opinion section, this should give you a clue as to how much credibility it deserves.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

http://www.iranian.com/History/2000/March/Women/index3.html


This also comes from Iranian.com, I am only vaguely familiar with the site and it appears credible to me.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

http://www.wfafi.org/only-democracy.htm


 

This article is totally unbelievable. Donna Hughes states that Islamic fundamentalism and the growing sex trade are the biggest threats to women's rights today. By using the terms Islamic fundamentalism and growing sex trade in the same sentence, she is intelligently trying to correlate the two. This is completely false and misleading on her part.

 

1. Islam and especially Muslim conservatives bar prostitution, premarital sex, and sexual slavery of women in Islamic societies. I would like to ask Ms. Hughes how she came to believe that the Islamists are responsible for the sex trade when they are religiously, ethically, and morally opposed to the sexual exploitation of women.  This paper, and Mr. Hughes are full of crap and hatemongering.

 

2. The sex trade is not growing; it has always been a mainstay of every culture and every society known to man. If there has been an upsurge in the trafficking of women, then it is because Eastern European women are being enslaved, transported, and sold into sexual slavery by Eastern European pimps.

 

Also, 90% of trafficked women trafficked from Eastern Europe and Latin America to the West, are fully aware that they will work as prostitutes. They travel to Western countries in order to sell themselves – they aren't forced into sexual slavery. Ms. Hughes needs to conduct more research.

 

Originally posted by morticia morticia wrote:

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1088

 

Completely biased site.

 

 

Originally posted by Mila Mila wrote:

I just wanted to congratulate you all for an excellent thread. Your debate is being carried out respectfully and intelligently - it's very, very nice to see. :)

 

I totally have a crush on Mila. Embarrassed

 

 



Edited by Master_Blaster - 11-Jun-2006 at 18:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 16:48
Maziar wrote:   “Yes Morty, In a patriarchal muslim society like Iran the men fear to lose control above women. For sure there are iranian men who don't think like that, but they are a minority and they are mostly educated and secular people.”

It’s the same mentality throughout the world towards women, Maziar. Even in the US, there are male chauvanists who still find pleasure in controlling and abusing women and who think that women belong, as the saying goes, “ at home, barefoot and pregnant.” These men are products of their surroundings and were probably raised in that sort of environment. Again, education is lacking with most of those men.   

Master Blaster (MB) wrote: “Rest assured that I am not anti-American, and the comments I made were not in reference to anti-American sentiment.”
“ And I, myself, must request that you cease from referring to me as anti-American or labeling my comments as being anti-American. You are misinterpreting the message.”

My apologies to you for any misunderstanding on my part. I shall refrain accordingly!

MB wrote: “ I fear that it will not be in our lifetimes that the female gender will achieve equality on the world stage as cultures and traditions based on male chauvinism are reluctant to accept change but I do feel that there is immense hope for Iranian women.”

I fear the same - total equality for women will not be achieved in my lifetime. It’s taken many women to get us where we are today, but they were successful and were so instrumental in   opening up a whole new world for women since the 1800s. The women’s cause will be around for a very long time. Again, education is KEY.

MB wrote: “What you must understand is that the women of Iran are not suppressed in the same manner as the women of Taliban Afghanistan were. Iranian women have access to education, they can shop for make-up and lingerie in malls, go out for coffee, etc. The oppression that Iranian women suffer is comparable than the oppression suffered by their male counterparts in that all Muslim Iranians are forced to adhere to Islamic codes of conduct, the rights of free speech, free press, etc. are suppressed.”

All the more reason why the Iranian men and women should unite to jointly obtain the freedom they so much desire.

MB wrote: “ I believe Mazier has already answered this, and I tend to agree with him. Men who are threatened by women's movements tend to be close-minded, undereducated, male chauvinists whereas the men who support women's movements tend to be open-minded, and come from liberal or moderate, educated backgrounds.”

Well, something we all unanimously agree on! Bravo!!!

MB wrote: “That is a concern amongst many men. They fear that modernization will bring with it other Western vices such as the sexual liberation of women, and promiscuity. These concerns may be unfounded but they are present amongst Iranian men."

I totally understand those concerns. Freedom comes with a price and choices, but, I am a firm believer that just like the men have those choices, the women should them as well. As far as sexual liberation, some men seem to think that they are the only ones with sexual desires and in need of sexual gratification. Well, that’s totally untrue! Women have much the same sexual needs and wants as men! Why is it that men can have many sexual partners and be considered STRONG VIRILE MEN, while women with many sexual partners are considered SLUTS ,PROMISCUOUS, and BAD GIRLS, etc?

MB wrote: http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2000/April/Women/
“This is an OPINION piece. The editors have chosen to publish it in the opinion section, this should give you a clue as to how much credibility it deserves.”

I posted the opinions of Mehrangiz Kar because she is a human rights lawyer and one of the few outspoken women of Iran (other outspoken women are Shirin Ebadi and Shahla Lahiji), who has published, among others, Children of Addiction: Social and Legal Position of the Children of Addicted Parents in Iran (1990); Quest for Identity: the Image of Iranian Women in Prehistory and History Vol.1 and 11; Women in the Iranian Labor Market (1994); and Legal Structure of the Family System in Iran.   She also co-edited, together with Shahla Lahji (the first Iranian woman publisher) Angel of Justice and Patches of Hell, which are essays observing the status and position of Iranian women pre and post revolution. However, her activism for women’s rights has often put her in conflict with the Iranian authorities. Both she and Lahiji (together with 19 other Iranian writers) were arrested in 2000 and tried for publicly debating political and social reforms in Iran in an academic and cultural conference held in Berlin. Having been convicted and sentenced to four years’ imprisonment on charges of “acting against national security and disseminating propaganda against the Islamic regime”, she appealed her sentence and, ultimately, same was reduced to 6 months imprisonment (calculated as time served) plus 500,000 rial fine. I felt her opinion was very favorable for the future of Iranian women, despite her confrontations with the authorities, and, having experienced oppression herself, she has openly expressed the hardships that Iranian women endure and possible reforms for women’s rights. I admire Kar, Lahiji and Shirin Ebadi for being human rights defenders and for continuing on with their efforts on behalf of the Iranian women.
   

Mehrangiz Kar


Shirin Ebadi

Mila wrote: “I just wanted to congratulate you all for an excellent thread. Your debate is being carried out respectfully and intelligently - it's very, very nice to see.”

Thank you Mila. I am certainly learning quite a bit about the Iranian woman and the Iranian ways and am very hopeful for their future.




    

Edited by morticia - 12-Jun-2006 at 16:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 08:51
Originally posted by Morticia Morticia wrote:

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2000/April/Women/
 
A good article by a very good activist. Mehrangiz Kar is a well known women and democracy activist in Iranian community.
Something i have to say about this article, this article was written in the time as Khatami tried to reform the IRI, it was a time of hope and euphoria, we thought we will join democracy by reforms Khatami wanted to do. The hope Kar mentioned in this article for the futur of iranian women is due to this euphoria.
 
Quote http://www.iranian.com/History/2000/March/Women/index3.html
Not bad, many history facts. unbiased.
 
Quote http://www.wfafi.org/only-democracy.htm
 
A very good article, seems Donna Hughes has competence knowledg about muslim women. I can only agree with her.
 
Quote http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1088
 
All persons mentioned in this article are real. We have heared or read about these women befor. And i know the sad story of these poor women.
In this thread i have posted about Atefe Rajabi the 16 years old girl who was hunged in Neka, north Iran. Afsane noroozi had a different story, a man wanted to rape her and she defense hereslf and kills the man. The islamic court sentences her to death by stoning, but under international pressure the court changes the sentence to perisoning.
 
 
 


Edited by Maziar - 13-Jun-2006 at 08:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 09:00
Originally posted by Morticia Morticia wrote:

It’s the same mentality throughout the world towards women, Maziar. Even in the US, there are male chauvanists who still find pleasure in controlling and abusing women and who think that women belong, as the saying goes, “ at home, barefoot and pregnant.” These men are products of their surroundings and were probably raised in that sort of environment. Again, education is lacking with most of those men.
I know, and i agree with you, but you will agree with me too if you compare the US society and iran's. The US could be a paradise for Iranian women in comparisation. In a islamic society, where the women are anyway guilty to be women, life is like hell for them. Look at the story of Afsane Noroozi i have told in my last post, if she hasen't deffence herself and let the man raoe her she was guilty to do adultry. But she deffence herself and she still is guilty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 10:50
Originally posted by Master Blaster Master Blaster wrote:

What you must understand is that the women of Iran are not suppressed in the same manner as the women of Taliban Afghanistan were.
yes true, not as bad as Taliban, but still very bad.
 
Quote Iranian women have access to education, they can shop for make-up and lingerie in malls, go out for coffee, etc. The oppression that Iranian women suffer is comparable than the oppression suffered by their male counterparts in that all Muslim Iranians are forced to adhere to Islamic codes of conduct, the rights of free speech, free press, etc. are suppressed
 
No, not only, women are more oppressed than men, men have more right than women in Iran and you know it too.
 
I was last year in Iran, in the front of the university of Tehran i have seen a group of young girl with simple make up less than a european woman. Than i saw 4 or 5 bearded men with motocycle (members of the revolution guard, something like Germany's Hitlers youngs)coming to them, disturbing them by insulting them. They used insulting words worse than i have ever heared, becouse of their make up. The police forces were near, but they did nothing. A groupe of young men came to help the girls, and in this moment police intervented. First i thought police wants to divide the groups, but the police finded the young men who wanted to help the girls.
this was something i have seen myself, i have asked my relatives about this and they said such scenses are not rare in Iran.


Edited by Maziar - 13-Jun-2006 at 13:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 23:06

Look what they do with our women, i wanted to cryCry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2006 at 11:20
   Great photos, Maziar! I couldn't help but chuckle at the guy using his cellphone in the middle of the melee! The old ways and the modern ways combined!    I guess the cellphone is a welcomed amenity everywhere! btw - are Iranian women permitted to use cellphones?
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