History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedWhy Europeans failed to settle Tropical Africa

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why Europeans failed to settle Tropical Africa
    Posted: 27-May-2009 at 21:43

In tropical Africa and the Americas there were tribal nomads societies, tribal sedentary societies and also large communities and cities.

I believe it is very infantile to compare the Sioux bands (that rode horses) with the mass attacks of Zulues (that had iron spears), or the armies of the Incas (on foot with bronze axes) with a heavy armored cavalry from Ethiopia.
 
Please, let's compare apples with apples and peas with pears.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
AksumVanguard View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 01-Feb-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 125
Post Options Post Options   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 00:42
Originally posted by pinguin

Are you describing Tupi-Guaranies?

In the case of the Mapuches of my country, they simply crashed with Spaniards, copied the military techniques, robbed horses and striked back. They killed more Spaniards in my country than in all the other Spanish colonies together.
 


You are acting like they weren't eventually defeated,they are even Mapuches siding with Royalist.North American tribes such as Iroquois sided with the British in the French and Inidian Wars,and they are some that sided with the  British and Americans in the American Revolution.Not to mention ,Cherokee tribes alligned with American Patriots during the Indian Removal Act of 1830 and did engage in other conflicts with other Indians. They were many Amerindian  tribes in South America who sided with the Spanish during revolts.

Originally posted by pinguin


Wishful thinking. North Africans, of course. West Africans didn't even knew writing or the wheel.

According to most historians. Andean civilizations did not possess the wheel or writing either

Originally posted by Ikki

...
"More the exception than the rule", pure ignorance or biassed comment. Mali-Songhai armies, Fulbe and Mande armies in the western coast, Benin warriors, Kongo warriors, Zimbabwe armies, Masai, Zulú, Kanem Bornu armies... all they and many more were very strong and fierce. Portuguese tried to dominate several kingdoms there, as Zimbabwe, but they couldn't; look the affairs in Kongo and you will see your "destroyed in months" states.

Originally posted by pinguin



How many Portuguese went there? I bet not many


But the fact is that they weren't able to conquer these african regions. As opposed to  the Spanish Conquistdor of Pizzaro brought 80 men later of which would recruit a vast amount of Indian tribes to conquer the Peruvian Region and other parts of South America.

Originally posted by pinguin


False. The problem is that Europeans didn't want Africa; they wanted the Americas because its land was better suited for Europeans. That's the hard truth


Your joking rightShocked
Originally posted by pinguin


You admiration for black Africans prevent you from viewing this objectively. The fact is blacks were easily dominated and enslaved by the Moors, and then by Europeans.


Actually theres a part of Sierre Lione now Liberia that were able to remain unconquered, that is a very good feat,especially considering all other parts of the world were occupied.

Originally posted by pinguin


Amerindian civilization had a higher level of civilization and organization than subsaharan Africans by far. There was plenty of resistence, and in several places Europeans couldn't conquist.


You do know that Hidalgos integrated with Indians creating the High Noble society in South America.
I think even Chileans Argentenians etc have more of a Spanish Ancestry than Amerindian.So they obviously were integrated and did not fully resist Spanish occupation.

Originally posted by pinguin


It is simply ridiculous to compare situations and army efforts without knowing the political realities of the Aztec and Inca empires.


You do know that Cortez did conquer Tenochititlan with other tribes so why are you saying its any difference.

Samoure Toure and Mahdist gave the Turks and British a hard time conqurering Africa



Edited by AksumVanguard - 28-May-2009 at 00:49
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 00:58
Originally posted by AksumVanguard

...
You are acting like they weren't eventually defeated,they are even Mapuches siding with Royalist.North American tribes such as Iroquois sided with the British in the French and Inidian Wars,and they some sided with British and Americans in the American Revolution.not to mention Cherokee tribes alligned with American Patriots during the Indian Removal Act of 1830. They were many AMerindian  tribes in South America who sided with the Spanish during revolts.


Of course. Nobody denies there were colaborators. There were plenty of them, or most of them.

Originally posted by pinguin


But the fact is that they weren't able to conquer these african regions. As opposed to  the Spanish Conquistdor of Pizzaro brought 80 men later of which would recruit a vast amount of Indian tribes to conquer the Peruvian Region and other parts of South America.


Less Boers killed 2.000 zulues in the second encounter with them, and ensured South Africa.
Now, the difference between Portuguese and Boers is evident. The first just wanted to have outpots in Africa while the Boers came to settle.

Originally posted by pinguin


Your joking rightShocked


Nope. They wanted to dominate tropical Africa and extract theirs richeness, but they didn't attempt to settled in large scale, except South Africa.

Originally posted by pinguin


Actually theres a part of Sierre Lione now Liberia that were able to remain unconquered, that is a very good feat,especially considering all other parts of the world were occupied.


That's interesting

Originally posted by pinguin


You do know that Hidalgos integrated with Indians creating the High Noble society in South America.
I think even Chileans Argentenians etc have more of a Spanish Ancestry than Amerindian.So they obviously were integrated and did not fully resist Spanish occupation.


The conquistadors weren't hidalgos (nobles upper class people) but poor guys. Pizarro took care of pigs when young and didn't read LOL

Originally posted by pinguin


You do know that Cortez did conquer Tenochititlan with other tribes so why are you saying its any difference.


They conquered Tenochtitlan when people couldn't resist more. Read the accounts; most warriors were sick or dead already when Cortes finally won.

Originally posted by pinguin


Samoure Toure and Mahdist gave the Turks and British a hard time conqurering Africa


I bet.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 01:04
Originally posted by AksumVanguard


According to most historians. Andean civilizations did not possess the wheel or writing either


Andes civilizations didn't have writing, indeed, but they had quipus, (knotted accounting strings) that were enough to manage the administration of an empire like the Inca; which was half the size of the Roman Empire.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 01:29
Look at Mauritaria today. The Moors invaded West Africa and started that evil trade.

That was in the 11th century! And the Almoravids didn't start slavery at all.
The Morrocans invaded Songhai in 1592 as well, and couldn't hold it. The Arma dynasty became independent of Morroco in only a few years.
Originally posted by Penguin

Wishful thinking. North Africans, of course. West Africans didn't even knew writing or the wheel. They were tribal peoples, no more advanced that more Native Americans, at least that you believe in movies of Eddie Morphy

Really? Songhai used formations of iron-clad heavy cavalry, Bornu had Ottoman officers training their Musketeers in the best tactics of the time. Arma means musketeer.
Where were the mass ranks of Musketeers supported by Knights in the armies of the americas? Only in European armies.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
AksumVanguard View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 01-Feb-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 125
Post Options Post Options   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 01:38
Originally posted by pinguin

Of course. Nobody denies there were colaborators. There were plenty of them, or most of them.


Well thats my point ,during colonialization you had some native nhabitants resist invaders while others ceded and fought alongside the enemy.

Originally posted by pinguin


Less Boers killed 2.000 zulues in the second encounter with them, and ensured South Africa.
Now, the difference between Portuguese and Boers is evident. The first just wanted to have outpots in Africa while the Boers came to settle.

I am not really using the Zulu as an example because of course it wasn't really that technologically advanced, it was a tribal society. But yes for some reasone the Afrikaners and Boers settled towards the South of Africa.They also intermarried with some of SoUTH Africans,as a matter of fact some them today are called Coloreds having European ancestry. While the other groups of Coloreds are descended from Khosian roots. They both look the same have the same and are yellow skinned and are facing the new Aparteid.


Originally posted by pinguin


Nope. They wanted to dominate tropical Africa and extract theirs richeness, but they didn't attempt to settled in large scale, except South Africa.


Alright you have a point,but in South Africa the Boers and AfriKkans did settle down and even today consider themselves Native Africkan



Originally posted by pinguin



The conquistadors weren't hidalgos (nobles upper class people) but poor guys.



Originally posted by pinguin

Pizarro took care of pigs when young and didn't read LOL

If your saying he wasn't of Upper Class borne I'm curious to know how he ended up leading the expedition into South America. Being self made is envious quality in the rise of ranks especially in a time during nepotism.


Right but mestizo citizens of the Americas now did have dual connections with both backgrounds of Indian & Spanish,so the tension between both culture kind of faded away.Example Simon Bolivar getting his eduction in   Europe.



Originally posted by pinguin


They conquered Tenochtitlan when people couldn't resist more. Read the accounts; most warriors were sick or dead already when Cortes finally won.


Point taken but what about the other Aztec Cities to counter attack the conquistadors,why didn't they intervene.

Originally posted by pinguin


Andes civilizations didn't have writing, indeed, but they had quipus, (knotted accounting strings) that were enough to manage the administration of an empire like the Inca; which was half the size of the Roman Empire.

 
The interesting thing about this is that goes back to Paleolithic times and are found in some parts f Asia as well,meaning this a tradition long passed down.



Edited by AksumVanguard - 28-May-2009 at 01:43
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 02:09
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

...
Really? Songhai used formations of iron-clad heavy cavalry, Bornu had Ottoman officers training their Musketeers in the best tactics of the time. Arma means musketeer.
Where were the mass ranks of Musketeers supported by Knights in the armies of the americas? Only in European armies.


Yes, you got a point in there, and it is very interesting. Songhai was "modern" in terms of military tactics, and I agree.

The Amerindian resistance got modernized after the first disasters, but they copied European tactics when they did so. Don't forget that when Custer was crashed, natives had rifles.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 02:21
Originally posted by AksumVanguard

...
Well thats my point ,during colonialization you had some native nhabitants resist invaders while others ceded and fought alongside the enemy.


Very much, indeed. Iberians allied with certain natives and crashed others. That's the way the conquest was done. Without the help of natives the Europeans had never conquest the Americas, and did so because people lived in tyranic regimes in both Inca and Aztec empires. In the first there was a civil war in course and an ilegitimate Inca; In the second the Aztecs dominated theirs subject by terror alone. Spaniards were smart enough to use those centrifugal forces in theirs favor.

Originally posted by AksumVanguard

...
I am not really using the Zulu as an example because of course it wasn't really that technologically advanced, it was a tribal society. But yes for some reasone the Afrikaners and Boers settled towards the South of Africa.They also intermarried with some of SoUTH Africans,as a matter of fact some them today are called Coloreds having European ancestry. While the other groups of Coloreds are descended from Khosian roots. They both look the same have the same and are yellow skinned and are facing the new Aparteid.


Yes, that's true. It is interesting the parallel of the Boer adventure in South Africa and the conquest of the Americas, intermarriage included.

Originally posted by AksumVanguard

...
Alright you have a point,but in South Africa the Boers and AfriKkans did settle down and even today consider themselves Native Africkan


Absolutely

Originally posted by AksumVanguard

...
If your saying he wasn't of Upper Class borne I'm curious to know how he ended up leading the expedition into South America. Being self made is envious quality in the rise of ranks especially in a time during nepotism.


Because the Spanish conquestors were soldiers and adventurers who wanted to become noble upperclass people, or form theirs own kingdoms. They were "enterpreneurs" usually of humble origins. Rich people didn't want to risk theirs lives the way these adventurer did, because they didn't have a reason to do so. Conquestadors didn't have anything to lose.

Originally posted by AksumVanguard

...
Right but mestizo citizens of the Americas now did have dual connections with both backgrounds of Indian & Spanish,so the tension between both culture kind of faded away.Example Simon Bolivar getting his eduction in   Europe.


That's true. But we accept the fact we have both origins simultaneously. As citizens of our countries we love our lands and our ancient history as much as pure natives. As descendents of Iberians we feel a special love for the "motherland". It may seem contradictory, but it isn't. We aren't guilty of a bloody past we didn't choose.


Originally posted by AksumVanguard

...
Point taken but what about the other Aztec Cities to counter attack the conquistadors,why didn't they intervene.


As I said. The Aztecs dominated theirs subjects by terror. Many other groups didn't care with what happened with theirs former masters.

Originally posted by AksumVanguard

...
The interesting thing about this is that goes back to Paleolithic times and are found in some parts f Asia as well,meaning this a tradition long passed down.


It may be so. The first quipus found comes from 3.000 years BC in Caral. So it wasn't a new invention at all when Incas started to use them.



Edited by pinguin - 28-May-2009 at 02:30
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
Ikki View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Guanarteme

Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1358
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 22:51
Originally posted by pinguin

 
I know them well.
 
 
Isn't evident for us pinguin.
 
 
 
Don't you see, you aren't informed? It is true my country lacked easy cash. But it is FALSE (with uppercases) the Spaniards weren't interested on it, or lacked armies. The fact is the largest military posts of the Spaniards in the Americas, outside the Caribbean, were here down south, stopping pirates and brits for entering the Pacific.
The War of Arauco wasn't a piece of cake at all.
 
 
In comparation with european and mediterranean wars, it was a minor war.
 
 
  
Originally posted by Ikki

...
 
They weren't interested. Immediately after the discovery of gold in the Americas, Zimbabwe and the Guinea Gulf societies were eclipsed.
Those places were plenty of populations, indeed, but the richess your imagine are more in your imagination than in the resources the area displayed.
 
My imagination? There were plenty regions very well populated, at least equally or better than the best amerindian regions (Niger valley for example). Until 1530 the african gold was the main source of precious metals for Europe and never lost importance because the southern gold from Zimbabwe was crucial for the trade with asiatic countries.
 
 
Originally posted by Ikki

...
 
 
Portuguese controlled Angola and Mozambique. So, what you are talking about.
 
 
You are very badly informated pinguin, in the 16-17th century portuguese dominion over this region was restricted to a few coastal feitorías, sometimes they could expand their influence like the example of Angola-Kongo, other times in Zimbabwe they were only annoying neighbours expelled from their areas when the african king wanted.
 
 
 
 
It is exactly the same comment you made about N.A.
 ...
 
Look at Mauritaria today. The Moors invaded West Africa and started that evil trade.
 
 
What did i say about N.A??
 
In the saharan frontier moors could take slaves in raids, but the usual way as in the eastern coast was a colaboration with native blacks. This trade didn't begin with they, but at least since roman times nubian slaves were present in Egypt.
 
 
All in all, is a racist comment. You say "blacks" were... no, no, some blacks acted in a way, others in different way. To say something general about the black race, and in a negative sense it's clearly a racist comment.
 
 
How many Portuguese went there? I bet not many.
 
 
Wacko Two examples
 
 
In 1572 an expedition of 1000 men under the leadership of Francisco Barreto tried to conquer the kingdom of Zimbabwe. 650 of these were european portuguese organized in four companies one with 200 arquebusiers, plus 6 artillery pieces and we must add black auxiliaries.
 
When they knew that the mines of gold was in hands of rebels, they changed the plans and tried to conquer that region. As usual, they recognize very few casualties, but after two battles against 10000 native warriors, which portuguese fought in square covering the fire weapons in the centre, they couldn't break the native resistence and changed the route. Decimated to 450 men by illnes, lack of resources and native harrasment, they musted retreat to the starting point.
 
--------
 
In a more advanced stage, portuguese fought in the middle of a civil war in the Kongo Kingdom. The Battle of Kitombo is very well known, finished in the crushing defeat of the 500 portuguese basically musketers and their allieds, and halted the portuguese expansion in Angola for more than a century
 
 
 
---
 
Only two examples in a long relation.
 
Originally posted by Ikki

...
 
 
Wishful thinking. North Africans, of course. West Africans didn't even knew writing or the wheel. They were tribal peoples, no more advanced that more Native Americans, at least that you believe in movies of Eddie Morphy
 
 
A sentence typical from eurocentric people you hate when they talk about America.
 
First Niger empires wasn't so primitive like you say for example. And secondly the military abilities of less developed people as Fulbe was very dangerous for europeans. They hadn't cavalry, but used to fight in a very advanced way: they placed first a line of spearmen, secondly a line of archers which were capable of fire very quickly high quantities of poisoned arrows, and in a third line the men of the main chiefs with swords and maces or axes. All these weaponry of iron. In the water, they used to fight with great and fast boats very goods in the the shallow waters of the west coast, and were capable of repulse the europeans attacks because their great movility and concentrated numbers. Hardly you will see this in America in the first stage of contact.
 
  
A single carivan of Boers with old fashionated muskets killed a thousand of Zulues in hours.
 
You talk about the Battle of Blood River, this is 1838, you know? By this time the european advantage had grown very much and zulúes, opposite to other african peoples, hadn't been in contact with europeans. And you know how dangerous they were after a time of mutual knowledge.
 
 
Ethiopia is another matter, as I said before.
 
No it isn't. They have similar problems in enviroment than other subsharan regions, they were exposed to northern influence but this tratidion was changed under native influences. Ethiopia and Niger valley civilizations were in a similar historical development situation, in the middle of mediterranean-middle eastern traditions and native traditions, but this was common in Africa and only a fraction of the continent was free of this situation so if we restrict so much the "subsaharan África" this thread is a no sense.
 
 
False. The Americas had a lot more gold and silver than Ghana or Zimbabwe. That's for sure. The only thing that Europeans bought from Africa were slaves, as shows the commerce triangle between the Caribbean, Europe and Africa.
 
They didn't go to tropical Africa simply because disease and inhuman weather. That's all.
 
No, No and NO. The first reason why europeans went donw along the african coast was the searching of gold. Until 1530 the gold from Elmina was very important for europeans and then as i have explained the gold of Zimbabwe was crucial for the asian trade. The quantities were smaller than the american ones after the conquest of the great amerindian empires, but the gold mines attracted they laterly as the expedition of Barroso show. The triangle commerce is only a generalization for the late stage of atlantic economy dominated by europeans. Slavery was the main african "richness" but wasn't the only one, other goods as gold, ivory, precious woods and many more were traded.
 
In the 16th century, illness didn't prevent a full development of sugar in the island of Sao Tomé in the Guinean Gulf. Until the increase of Brazilian production after 1600 this island was the main sugar source for europeans, why do you think portuguese couldn't stablish their plantations in the continent? Probably the reason was the unsafe position of europeans there. In 1589, the Ndongo kingdom totally crushed the portuguese in the Battle of Lukala and pushed they in the limits of their fortified positions in the coast. Under this pressure was impossible to do anything.
 
Once and for all, military-polytical resistance was as important as illness for a very late european conquest of the continent.


Edited by Ikki - 28-May-2009 at 23:05
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 05:44
 
 
First: Mapuches were highly organized. And nobody helped them to defend themselves. They simply did.
 
Second: At the first of your battles, the Dutch helped the Kongo with guns and canons! With that kind of help, anyone could defeat Europeans.
 
Third: In the invasion of Zimbabwe the Portuguese were defeated by germs; not steel.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 29-May-2009 at 05:49
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 10:19
I'm no expert in the historic detailes of the conquest of America and Africa, but my verdict is the following:

The conquest of America was made easy by the diseases. The Spaniards would certainly not have defeated the Aztecs if there wasn't a Small-pox outbreak during the seige of Tetnochitlan. In most of the rest of the continent the epidemics travelled faster than the colonists; in that native populations were already being decimated by diseases when the Europeans met them. The Inca Empire was the prime example.
Europeans also had interests in settling in America as much of it was a vast extension of sparsely-populated, fertile land with mild climate.
Basically, the economic gains in occupying America were far greater than their costs.

Africa was a different story. North Africa, after all, should be classified as part of the Eurasian world rather than the "African world"; and sub-saharan Africa had contact with Eurasians dating back to at least 2500 years; when Berber tribes penetrated as far south as Mali. The Romans also organized an expedition that located the source of the Nile in Lake Victoria. Therefore directly or indirectly, Africans had developed resistance to most Eurasian diseases and many were up-to-date with Eurasian advancements.
Few Eurasian empires had any interest in settling in or even occupying Africa because of the diseases and the hostile climate; the costs would probably far outweigh the gains. Therefore, most activity was limited to the coast line and a few trade routes.



Back to Top
Ikki View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Guanarteme

Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1358
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 12:32
Originally posted by pinguin

 
First: Mapuches were highly organized. And nobody helped them to defend themselves. They simply did.

Who have said the opposite? The key point is that africans did too.

 
Second: At the first of your battles, the Dutch helped the Kongo with guns and canons! With that kind of help, anyone could defeat Europeans.

This happened because similar reasons of the resistance of Mapuches in comparation with aztecs for example. In the case of Mapuches, and long exposition to european traditions become an advantage in military terms. As i have said, this battle happened in a more advanced stage of contact between these two peoples, as mapuches Kongo warriors could adapt to european warfare.

But, opposite to this example, in most of Africa the first contact wasn't succesful for the europeans and they musted to stay in the coast in front or under the power of the powerful natives, what allowed to natives to adapt to military innovations of europeans. I'll expand this point with Calvo, but take as examples of this the opposition to portuguese advance in the western coast, in the Battle of Lusaka or in several Zimbabwe campaigns.
 
Third: In the invasion of Zimbabwe the Portuguese were defeated by germs; not steel.

Was defeated by both, germs and native opposition. When portuguese advanced into the country they musted to change the route because indigenous attacks, at all, they couldn't achieve nothing and natives never hand downs to portuguese. If you think this is the only example, you are wrong

 
[/QUOTE]




--------


Calvo

Originally posted by calvo


Europeans also had interests in settling in America as much of it was a vast extension of sparsely-populated, fertile land with mild climate. 
Basically, the economic gains in occupying America were far greater than their costs.

Exactly the opposite in the first sentence, specially in the spanish example. More populated was the area, more attractive was for europeans. Central México and the northern-central Andean region was the most populated regions of the continents and was the most prized conquest of the spanish, this is because they were attracted by the idea of dominion over great population of serfs in feuds and cheap labour forces in mines, a very medieval way of thinking. Several african regions offered exactly that, but as you said, the story was different.


Africa was a different story. North Africa, after all, should be classified as part of the Eurasian world rather than the "African world"; and sub-saharan Africa had contact with Eurasians dating back to at least 2500 years; when Berber tribes penetrated as far south as Mali. The Romans also organized an expedition that located the source of the Nile in Lake Victoria. Therefore directly or indirectly, Africans had developed resistance to most Eurasian diseases and many were up-to-date with Eurasian advancements.
Few Eurasian empires had any interest in settling in or even occupying Africa because of the diseases and the hostile climate; the costs would probably far outweigh the gains. Therefore, most activity was limited to the coast line and a few trade routes. 

Agree in most of this paragraph but not in the end. Disease, and political-military opposition, but not exaclty by climate. The tropical climate of África was very good for some very profitable products, as sugar, take the example i commented of Sao Tomé.

The activity, with this i answer to the previous pinguin argument, was limited to coastal regions with some exceptions (Zimbabwe, Kongo). But basically because native opposition, have you thinking guys that coastal regions was the most unhealthy regions??; higher territories wasn't so bad for the illness. The problem was that the first echelon in the european expansion was blocked by human opposition: portuguese suffered this in most of the territories, but not only they. In the 18th century, the French began their expansion in Senegal. The tried to go up by the Senegal river, building fortresss which could protect their advance. But, when they faced the opposition of inner peoples, which were very dangerous in military terms they hade a problem (cavalry, fireweapons, steel), their allieds didn't agree to following supporting their advance. So the French musted to leave the fortress they had built and come back 


As you see this is a very complex problem, if the equation wasn't good for europeans, it wasn't only because limited products, illness and climate. You must put natives in the balance.



Edited by Ikki - 29-May-2009 at 12:37
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 14:09
I must agree with a factor we aren't taking into account: density of population. Africa it was more populated than the Americas by far, particularly in tropical regions. To put an army of 10.000 in Africa seemed to be easy. To do the same in the Americas happened only in some particular cases. I bet that even Mexico and Peru were less densily populated than the tropical regions of Africa. In the case of North America, Amazons and particularly Patagonia, people were very few.
 
The argument about the iron spears Africans used doesn't convince me. A more convincing argument is that tropical Africans were agriculturalists that also have cattle and goats, and lived a tribal but sedentary life, so they had larger populations. In most of the Americas, except Peru and Mexico, population densities were low and agriculture was complemented with hunting: no cattle existed in the Americas before Europeans arrived.
 
Now, why falled the Aztec and Inca empire? Simply because they were new societies with a few centuries old, that were still too multicultural to have a sense of identity. Most people lived there under a tyrany of "foreigners". Aztec and Incas were just dominant tribes appart from the large majority of people that had other etnicities and were forced into theirs dominium. For many of them, the change from Aztec or Incas to Spaniards was a non-issue and don't care. Even so, the Aztec empire surrender only after disease and casualities had reduced the aztec warriors ranks to almost zero.
 
Another interesting point is that, perhaps, Mapuches resisted the Spanish invasion because they had already stopped the Incas a century earlier! When the Spanish and theirs Inca allied invaded Chile, they were already tranned to resist.
 
Curious, I never though of that before.
 


Edited by pinguin - 29-May-2009 at 14:19
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 15:09
Originally posted by calvo

...Europeans also had interests in settling in America as much of it was a vast extension of sparsely-populated, fertile land with mild climate.
Basically, the economic gains in occupying America were far greater than their costs.
...
Few Eurasian empires had any interest in settling in or even occupying Africa because of the diseases and the hostile climate; the costs would probably far outweigh the gains. Therefore, most activity was limited to the coast line and a few trade routes.
 
Absolutely. There was a matter of cost/benefit. And nobody wanted to invade territories with armies and settlers dying of contaguious deseases. Had the Boers survived better in tropical Africa, perhaps the things would had been different.
 
However, Australia, the Pacific and specially the Americas represent the 40% of the lands of the planet. Just settling those were more than enough to capture all the excess of population of the West, and all the effort that that enterprise demanded.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 848
Post Options Post Options   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 16:06
Ikki,
 
You're right that the Spanish conquered Mesoamerica due to its large population and the large number of potential serfs that could work for the crown; but something unexpected happened: the decimation of the population due to diseases.
By the year 1600, a census in New Spain yielded a population of 2 million, and the population of the Iberian Peninsula at the time was 8 million!
Considering how much bigger New Spain was compared to the Iberian peninsula, with a population a quarter of its size; many of the dispossesed peasants of the Iberian peninsula saw a great opportunity to emigrate to the new colonies and establish a new life.
 
I don't have any statistics as to the number of Spaniards who emigrated over the centuries, but if the numbers peaked in the 1600s-1700s, it could well be because of the emtpy land.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 16:25
Originally posted by pinguin

Had the Boers survived better in tropical Africa, perhaps the things would had been different.
Things might have been wildly different had the Boers even tried to settle in tropical Africa.
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 19:25
Originally posted by calvo

Ikki,
 
You're right that the Spanish conquered Mesoamerica due to its large population and the large number of potential serfs that could work for the crown; but something unexpected happened: the decimation of the population due to diseases.
By the year 1600, a census in New Spain yielded a population of 2 million, and the population of the Iberian Peninsula at the time was 8 million!
Considering how much bigger New Spain was compared to the Iberian peninsula, with a population a quarter of its size; many of the dispossesed peasants of the Iberian peninsula saw a great opportunity to emigrate to the new colonies and establish a new life.
 
I don't have any statistics as to the number of Spaniards who emigrated over the centuries, but if the numbers peaked in the 1600s-1700s, it could well be because of the emtpy land.
 
That's a fallacy, I am afraid. There is a huge myth about the impressive decline of the population in the Americas according to disease. So much so that the people that calculate populations before contact are usually called "number crunchers"... sort of magicians that take out figures and rabbits out of the hat. 
 
If the census sad 2 millions in 1600 that was around the same population living there at contact.
 
The fact that Europe is smaller than the Americas in size doesn't mean the last should have the same continent than the first at all. If that were the case, and the Americas had the same density than Europe, it should have circa 20 billion people today to match the 700 millions of Europe.
 
Never forget that Mexico circa 1900 had no more than 20 million people! and probably no more  than 10 millions at Independence in 1810.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
Mayra View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jan-2007
Location: brasil
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Post Options Post Options   Quote Mayra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 19:48
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
" I have no particular talent. I am merely inquisitive". Albert Einstein
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Chile
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7508
Post Options Post Options   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 22:55
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471)
Back to Top
Ikki View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Guanarteme

Joined: 31-Dec-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1358
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 12:44
Originally posted by pinguin

Another interesting point is that, perhaps, Mapuches resisted the Spanish invasion because they had already stopped the Incas a century earlier! When the Spanish and theirs Inca allied invaded Chile, they were already tranned to resist.
 
Curious, I never though of that before.
 
 
This is another interesting matter. We must watch several points:
 
1. Native factors: great territory, sparcely populated, without a centralized authority, without urban net, warlike peoples.
 
2. Spanish: few forces, few resources, generally little interest in the land, uncapability to deal with the problem according with previous experiences.
 
 
This mean, when spaniards arrived to Chile they found an interesting land to settle, but not so much like other regions of the continent. In the richest and better organized states the task was simple: to take or destroy the central authority=the emperor, to take or destroy the urban centers. Without that authority and without those cities, the task in Chile for a small spanish army was impossible. It can be said that the "undeveloped" stage of mapuche people played in favour of they, and Mapuche was a warlike people with experience fighting "regular" armies, not the the mass of peaceful peasants ruled by a small cast of warriors-religious people like other civilizations, so here play what you have said.
 
Because the quick conquest was impossible and the territory of natives was disrupted, the war followed for many time because non of the enemies was good in their position. And this allowed mapuches to adapt to european warfare. In several moments spanish showed great interest in finish the war, but the most decissive victories over the indigenous didn't mean anything than deffensive position and consolidation of territory.
 
Originally posted by calvo

 
You're right that the Spanish conquered Mesoamerica due to its large population and the large number of potential serfs that could work for the crown; but something unexpected happened: the decimation of the population due to diseases.
By the year 1600, a census in New Spain yielded a population of 2 million, and the population of the Iberian Peninsula at the time was 8 million!
Considering how much bigger New Spain was compared to the Iberian peninsula, with a population a quarter of its size; many of the dispossesed peasants of the Iberian peninsula saw a great opportunity to emigrate to the new colonies and establish a new life.
 
I don't have any statistics as to the number of Spaniards who emigrated over the centuries, but if the numbers peaked in the 1600s-1700s, it could well be because of the emtpy land.
 
 
It's a good hypothesis, but surelly uncorrect. The migration of spaniards to América in 16-17th centuries were mainly people of middle-high jobs, they were basically urban migrants who went there to work in urban centers, althought many of they worked in the country, they were always the upper side of the worker system; althought the migration of the 17th is not as well kown as the 16th century. The migration of low rank workers and with a pure rural objective with a purpose of stablish in unpopulated lands didn't begin until 1700. The greatest stimations for this migration are around 400.000 in those two centuries and probably that date is excessive.
 
I can't provide you with a net source but you can look this info in any general book about history of Hispanoamérica.
 
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.