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Forum LockedWhy does Turkey & Pakistan have great friendship?

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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why does Turkey & Pakistan have great friendship?
    Posted: 22-Apr-2008 at 10:11
I thought I had replied to this, oops
Originally posted by Aussiedude

I don't see what makes North India paticulalry special for the average Pakistani, who would much rather peace and stability, am I right?

800 years of common history perhaps? I already said above I think there would be a significant number of people who wouldn't mind North India.
Originally posted by Pekau

Question about 3), doesn't it make sense that Pakistan won't have any negative view on Turks because they are not close, whether in good or bad? It's like saying that the Koreans generally see Holland as good guys... they aren't really related or close enough to point out any negative comments.... which only justified your 4th point.

In point (3) I was refering to Turkish invasions into the Pakistan & India region. Ghaznavids, Ghurids, Mughals. So there is certainly room for negative view, which is held by many people, and probably most Indians (or at least Rajputs).
"Indians and Chinese cannot do business together because Indians cannot live without a bargain and Chinese will never offer you a bargain."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2008 at 01:48
Why not? Once a Pakistani student exchange stayed in our house for quite some time. Fine guy. We used to drink together fine. He seemed secular enough to me. We fooled my friends that he was an Indian and came to teach me yoga. Girls died to meet him :)

Turkey considers Pakistan as sister (or brother... damn the word in Turkish for it is neutralis) nation. And yes I think one of the reasons maybe that two countries are so far from each other to cause any harm and any help is so appreciated (again for the distance)

Ah and I don't think any Pakistanis blame Modern Turkey for Medieval Turkic invasions :) I am pretty sure no one ever thinks about it. Just us, History Nerds. :)

BTW the ground of the close relations may be based also on the horrific friendship of two ex-military junta leaders. Kenan Evren and Ziya ul-Hak.

Well I also remember when Kenan Evren received Chinese Ducks from China as a precious gift :)) Offsprings of those ducks still quack in Ankara's zoos and parks in memory of Chinese-Turkish friendship. No one has made a big deal out of Turkic invasions or the great wall etc.  :)

(BTW I always thought it as a universal insult even seen from space. Chinese said to Turkic or Altaic people that "Rest of the world can be yours, I just don't want to see your face again." and built a wall can be seen from space... unnhhhh... Then Turks migrated west and started to bother others...)

So I humbly suggest not to take these matters seriously or try to give meaning to them scientifically. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2008 at 12:52
Efraz
He seemed secular enough to me.
 
Why is this point important? how can a person be secular.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2008 at 14:20
I was referring to the secularism discussion going on in these pages suggesting that this can be a problem between a Turk and a Pakistani.

A person being secular means that he/she have digested and embraced the concept of secularism.(at least) A member of secular society may not embrace the idea. May even be openly against it. Or should I have used  the word "secularist"? Or like Coles "secular minded"? :) I am sure you know what I mean.

And yes that point obviously is important to many people... especially in Turkey. Don't you think? Not that I would treat my friends worse if they don't embrace secularism whetever that means. But there is a good possibility we couldn't have gotten drunk together.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 08:51
I was referring to the secularism discussion going on in these pages suggesting that this can be a problem between a Turk and a Pakistani.
 
Only one of them has a distorted mind who think He is always right and other people(include friends.) should follow his ideas and become a distorted mind like him.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 12:37
Originally posted by Efraz

Not that I would treat my friends worse if they don't embrace secularism whetever that means. But there is a good possibility we couldn't have gotten drunk together.

Your confusing secularism with impiety or atheism.
Republic of Turkey is not a secular state without badly distorting the meaning of the word secular. Secular states don't interfere in religion, and indeed, ignore its existence. Turkey very much interferes in religious affairs of multiple religions, and is therefore a long way from being secular.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 12:48
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Efraz

Not that I would treat my friends worse if they don't embrace secularism whetever that means. But there is a good possibility we couldn't have gotten drunk together.

Your confusing secularism with impiety or atheism.
Republic of Turkey is not a secular state without badly distorting the meaning of the word secular. Secular states don't interfere in religion, and indeed, ignore its existence. Turkey very much interferes in religious affairs of multiple religions, and is therefore a long way from being secular.


That was a deliberate irony. In Islam if you are an anti-secularist there is no way we will get drunk together.

Rest assured I know the difference but it's too narrow in Turkey. A person being very religious and at the same time being a proper secular minded person? Rare. Also the vice versa is nearly impossible.

Anyway it has nothing to do with a Turk's and Pakistani's friendship.


Edited by Efraz - 28-Apr-2008 at 12:51
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 13:26
Efraz
A person being very religious and at the same time being a proper secular minded person?
 
You can be very religous but not have a problem with a "laicist" system, remember Turkey isn't "secular", she has a department of religous affairs. As long as the system doesn't interrupt a persons religous practices and protects them the two can co-exist.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 16:12
Efraz a person can be very religious and secular at the same time, there are many people like this. Someone who says you can't be religious and secular at the time is either fanatically religious or fanatically atheist (both are 2 sides of the same coin anyway). Secularism only refers to a type of government, it doesn't make any sense when applied to an individual.

And yes, Turkey is not a secular country it's a laicist country. Even when we talk about secularism in Turkish we say "laiklik". Secularism is the separation of church and state where as laicism is the domination of the state over the church.

Personally I believe laicism is the best route for Turkey, I don't want foreign Arab or Iranian money trying to corrupt the way people learn religion there. Pakistan should take up a similar system and not allow anymore private mosques to function without state-trained imams.




Edited by kafkas - 28-Apr-2008 at 16:13
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 17:56
Originally posted by kafkas

Efraz a person can be very religious and secular at the same time, there are many people like this. Someone who says you can't be religious and secular at the time is either fanatically religious or fanatically atheist (both are 2 sides of the same coin anyway). Secularism only refers to a type of government, it doesn't make any sense when applied to an individual.

And yes, Turkey is not a secular country it's a laicist country. Even when we talk about secularism in Turkish we say "laiklik". Secularism is the separation of church and state where as laicism is the domination of the state over the church.



Hello Kafkas

I don't quite understand. Do you think a person can be secular or not?

Well lets start from the "secular and religious may co-exist" argument.

Yes, in theory may co-exist but I think it's a rare state of mind. To me the problem isn't about system interrupting religious practices. Islam is problematic with laicist system. Islam is prescribing the Islamic system with it's main dogma.

Lay or Greek word "laikos"  means the civil people but refers to the people outside the church.

On the other hand Islamic religion tends to rule not only spiritual life but also dominates the very worldly, carnal and economic lives.(therefore "secular" lives) This is a power over the state. It has some pre-determined laws which goes for the "lay" also. In fact especially for the lay :)

Ah by the time we get here I must say your explanation of "secular" isn't acurate too. It's not a type of goverment. How can it be? People first embrace it and determine what is a secular mind before they set it in their goverment. That's the process Turkey is lacking. And laicism is the concept when secularism is adopted to a government. Which means separating governmental and religious... nothing else.

Secular means "worldly"... Secularism is separating all things worldly and all things spiritual when thinking and deciding for yourself and for others. In a rough way of saying. So the two can hardly co-exist while your religion is dominating the all things worldly.

And I do not deny the fact that Turkey isn't secular enough in the mind. And laicism exists only on the book. If you look at that perspective even U.S.A isn't secular enough while prohibiting Darwinist teachings(sorry if I am misinformed).

And you people really believe a very religious person in Islam will make secular decisions when given a governmental position. For example when determining the educational system. What will he decide on the Darwinism teachings? Will he be okay if scientist advise this lessons? Then he has a real secular mind and religious at the same time.

In theory may exist. Let's say that person has no secret agenda and purely idealist.  But that person at least will have to compromise his beliefs.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 20:54
Secular means "worldly".
 
Bla, bla, bla..  Yeah, Other people than secular people does not live in world and They did not believe science. They do not use electiricty. They use their prayers for light.
 
And you people really believe a very religious person in Islam will make secular decisions when given a governmental position. For example when determining the educational system. What will he decide on the Darwinism teachings?
 
It was a theory. So It is not a holy fact so who is more fanatic? Fanatism has no relation with religion but with mind.(As we see, You are not religious but fanatic.)
 
By the way, what did your secular Turkey accomplished at univercities? Except Darwinism teaching? Ermm Oh and producing people like you who believe only atheist people have connection with reality.
 
I heard such things before. Oh I heard it from our nicely secular professors and I laughed their comments with my ass. But repeating this comments is no more funny. 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 22:09
Efraz
Yes, in theory may co-exist but I think it's a rare state of mind. To me the problem isn't about system interrupting religious practices. Islam is problematic with laicist system. Islam is prescribing the Islamic system with it's main dogma.
 
There is no dogma, Islam is a religion, the religion is suited to humanity, if a system is based upon justice, equality, respects human rights and tries to create a fairer society and so forth (and if it doesn't restrict religion) then this wouldn't be an anti-Islamic or an uncompatible system.
 
Efraz
On the other hand Islamic religion tends to rule not only spiritual life but also dominates the very worldly, carnal and economic lives.(therefore "secular" lives) This is a power over the state. It has some pre-determined laws which goes for the "lay" also. In fact especially for the lay :)
 
The state cannot dictate how people live their individual lives.
The purpose of most religions is to help people in their daily lives and make sense of the bigger picture.
Today in Turkey most people celebrate religous festivals, have been to mosque or prayed at some stage, been circumcised, don't eat pork, have had a lamb sacrificed to feed those less well off, might have paid Zekat and so forth.
 
Are all these people a threat to the system? ofcourse not, however, these practices which either religous or influenced by religion are a part of peoples everyday lives and don't conflict with the state.
Efraz
And laicism is the concept when secularism is adopted to a government. Which means separating governmental and religious... nothing else.
 
Where is the seperation? there is a department of religous affairs which one could argue is similar to the Ottoman 'Şeyhülislam'.
 
If Turkey could tone down the extremist secularism some of the elite have it would be a sucess of creating a balance between religion and a non-religous state.
 
Personally I don't support any state claiming to be "religous", as they generally do more harm to religion than good and have a narcissist belief that their rule is unquestionable as they claim to be ruling as their interpretation of religion sees fit.
 
However, I don't have a problem with a religous body free of pollitics which provides religous services for the public.
 
 
Efraz
And you people really believe a very religious person in Islam will make secular decisions when given a governmental position. For example when determining the educational system. What will he decide on the Darwinism teachings? Will he be okay if scientist advise this lessons? Then he has a real secular mind and religious at the same time.
 
Darwinism is not a religion, its a "theory", an old one. Darwins teachings are not the building blocks of a state, to accept or reject Darwins views is a right in a free society.
Science constantly advances, it hasn't stopped with Darwin. This is a "theory" not absolute truth.
 
However, religion is religion, unlike Darwinism it is a belief.
 
Islam doesn't prohibit learning it encourages it, I can learn about Darwinism, it doesn't mean I must agree with it and doesn't make somebody any less religous.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 22:44
Well this discussion is nearly over for me. But I think I couldn't make myself clear... Probably my bad.

I have never defended Turkey or delighted on the fact how secular is Turkey. And never defended Darwinism too. Turkey's secularism and Darwinism's problematics were mere examples. Many more can be found. Darwinism is the closest. But Bulldog gave me an answer instead of playing around. Thank you Bulldog. I saw your point.

Never said Darwinism is a religion and never said anti-secular people are ignorant or so.  IF you have known me you'd know that'll be the last thing I would think of.

And yet Darwinism is not a theory it's a scientific school, a philosophy. Not mentioned but referred: Evolution is not only a theory either. It has laws, it has facts. It has abandoned theories and sets of theories that are being worked on too. It is a vast zone of researching. Can not be cast aside like "hey evolution is only a theory no need to mention it!"

Hmm what else is commented? ah, never defended department of religion in Turkey.(Imagine me doing so) I never defended laicist university education in Turkey. I may only criticize it. But not now not here.

And secular still means worldly. :) And anti-secularists have worldly lives too. I didn't say otherwise. And I still believe the two can hardly go together in Islam. I haven't read a comment from you to make me think otherwise. But opinions can be refreshed. Thanks anyway.

And also I never said "never" There was no need to get upset Mourty.  These were my opinions. And they were not severe. Open to debate. And I am not produced by Darwinist teachings of Turkey. And Never said only truth can be seen by atheist people. You are too hasty. I am not even an atheist :)

And to "my secular Turkey".. I would love to see one in the future :)

I believe I made my point.

PS: secular turkeys can not be eaten in Christmas I suppose, therefore not so brilliant

sorry I could not help :)


Edited by Efraz - 28-Apr-2008 at 22:46
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2008 at 08:05
And yet Darwinism is not a theory it's a scientific school, a philosophy. Not mentioned but referred: Evolution is not only a theory either. It has laws, it has facts. It has abandoned theories and sets of theories that are being worked on too. It is a vast zone of researching. Can not be cast aside like "hey evolution is only a theory no need to mention it!"
 
Sure we can mention every theory in schools who is not proved. what about theories about Adam and Havva? It is also unproved like Darwin theory and It is older.
 
By the way, Evolution is totally different than what darwin said and Religious people accept it. Evolution of species are acceptable and It happen all members of species. But some monkeys(not all like evolution.) turning human is not proven so If We teach every unproven theory we should teach a lot different theories too.
 
And secular still means worldly. :) And anti-secularists have worldly lives too. I didn't say otherwise. And I still believe the two can hardly go together in Islam. I haven't read a comment from you to make me think otherwise. But opinions can be refreshed. Thanks anyway.
 
Nonsense. Secular mean division between religion and state. Nothing more. No need to create funny building over nothing.
 
Religious people are using worldy tool as much as secular ones.(Look Turkey.) Also, Law(So Secular-Seriat difference) has no relation with science.
 
 A religious society may create difficulties at producing science but It is not a must. An a secular or laisist country may produce science but It is not a must too.(As we see in Turkey.)
 
Important thing is approach to science not becoming religious or secular.
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2008 at 09:50

Originally posted by Mortaza

Secular mean division between religion and state. Nothing more. No need to create funny building over nothing.


Argh. I have nothing more to say. There is a problem that I can not solve.  But I am a fanatic and you are not, right?
Originally posted by Mortaza

Important thing is approach to science not becoming religious or secular.

Interesting phrase. Would have been brilliant(or disastrous) only if you have known what secular means. :)

Well at least you are transparent, you don't want secular science. Fair. I have nothing more to add. Good day.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2008 at 12:05
Interesting phrase. Would have been brilliant(or disastrous) only if you have known what secular means. :)
 
So tell me what secular means, becoming worldly?
 
If you give enough importance to science, You will take benefit from it. If you dont, You will take nothing. It has absolutely zero relation with secularism.
 
As we see, Turkey is more than secular but we produce zero about science because our scientist interest secularism much more than science. If secularism helped their science, I am sure that We would have a  lot einstain.
 
It is like producing a commedity. Give enough importance and source, Than you will get what you want.
 
Not related with becoming religious or unreligious or political system of country.
 
 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2008 at 15:13
Mortaza

Turkey produces a lot of science, I don't know where you get the thought that it doesn't. Not just on a national level but Turkish university students have come with new post-modern inventions that Western countries haven't taken advantage of yet.



Efraz

I don't think any of us understand your point. What are you trying to say exactly?

1) If religious people couldn't live secular lives the world would be in absolute CHAOS right now. That alone disproves any notion that an individual can't be religious and secular at the same time

2) What do you mean by "secular means worldly"? Hitler was secular, so was Stalin, do you think they were "worldly"???

For the record if it helps you answer my question I'm a Muslim secularist. I like the current system of laicism in Turkey, I don't think it has to be changed. The people who want to live under Arab Law are the minority and if they don't like it they can move to Iran or an Arab country. Same goes for the communists, if they don't like the idea of private property they should move to North Korea or China.


Edited by kafkas - 29-Apr-2008 at 15:18
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2008 at 15:53
Hello kafkas
 
What makes you think Arab countries are religious? some regimes are even more secular than Turkey and in some, like Tunisia, even the most secularist Turk wouldn't dare implement the family laws over there.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2008 at 16:43
Hello Kafkas.

I am only replying after I said "good bye" because I don't want to be rudely ignoring your question.

I was not trying to say anything on secularism under this topic. I gave common definitions on secularism on a question and on other questions I have given my personal opinions.

Originally posted by Efraz


Secular means "worldly"... Secularism is separating all things worldly and all things spiritual when thinking and deciding for yourself and for others. In a rough way of saying.

Which part is hard to understand?

Originally posted by Efraz


Well lets start from the "secular and religious may co-exist" argument.
Yes, in theory may co-exist but I think it's a rare state of mind.

Or this? Read the underlines. And I was speaking for "Islam".

Originally posted by Efraz


A person being very religious and at the same time being a proper secular minded person? Rare.

And this? Maybe I think you are "rare"?

I repeated the same thing all over very clearly. This last two are my subjective opinions. I see you oppose it. Fair but I believe the answers to your questions were already in the post I have written to reply you. If not, then there is an epistemology problem between us. Any more definition from me will be needless repetition because I feel my comments weren't read carefully by you. Sorry if I am mistaken.

Ah, on Hitler and Stalin. I think it's irrelevant with the definition of the concept.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2008 at 17:50
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/04/wo...html?ref=world


Turkish Schools Offer Pakistan a Gentler Islam

By SABRINA TAVERNISE
Published: May 4, 2008
KARACHI, Pakistan — Praying in Pakistan has not been easy for Mesut Kacmaz, a Muslim teacher from Turkey. Mesut Kacmaz, principal of a PakTurk school in a poor neighborhood of Karachi, and his wife, Meral, in their home.

He tried the mosque near his house, but it had Israeli and Danish flags painted on the floor for people to step on. The mosque near where he works warned him never to return wearing a tie. Pakistanis everywhere assume he is not Muslim because he has no beard.
“Kill, fight, shoot,” Mr. Kacmaz said. “This is a misinterpretation of Islam.”
But that view is common in Pakistan, a frontier land for the future of Islam, where schools, nourished by Saudi and American money dating back to the 1980s, have spread Islamic radicalism through the poorest parts of society. With a literacy rate of just 50 percent and a public school system near collapse, the country is particularly vulnerable.

Mr. Kacmaz (pronounced KATCH-maz) is part of a group of Turkish educators who have come to this battleground with an entirely different vision of Islam. Theirs is moderate and flexible, comfortably coexisting with the West while remaining distinct from it. Like Muslim Peace Corps volunteers, they promote this approach in schools, which are now established in more than 80 countries, Muslim and Christian.


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