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Forum LockedWhy does Turkey & Pakistan have great friendship?

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Bulldog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 02:11
Quote Mughaal
And so im not going to tell you Turks are religious people, especially if 40% of them oppose Islam virulently and seek to make it more "applicable" in modern life and day.
 
40% oppose Islam virulently? really, could you care to prove it because your source has nothing to do with it.
 
What is wrong with making Islam applicable with modern day and life. Don't you know that in the golden ages of muslim powers Islamic law was often debated, changed, new interpretations were encouraged, new laws were passed, there was no culture of fear.
 
There is nothing un-Islamic in revising aspects of interpretations and adapting to modern life.
 
This endemic fear of change and stagnation of though and intellect is holding the muslim world back.
 
The most ironic part of it all is that scholors idolised by ultra-conservatist religous groups today actually were doing what those deemed as traiterous liberalists are trying to do today. The great scholors of the past were involved in ijtihad, ijma, qiyas, they questioned, debated, criticised and developed an advanced form of law suitable for the "modern" age.
 
Today any changes are regarded as "taboo", while the scholors that are admired if they were doing what they did then today would be denounced as heathens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 09:38

Id argue the changes occuring are the ones that made Islamic Law distinct in the first place. Meaning, your reshaping Islamic Law to fit, for example, English Common Law.

Also, the scholars of the past did ijtihad within reason of Islamic Law, using Shariah as their source of reason, not Aristotle or Ataturk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 09:43

1) There is more to Sufi Islam than wine and spinning. For example Abd al Qadir of North Africa and Imam Shamil of Dagestan. Its just that wine and spinning is the Islam Turks favor. Because there is no accountability perhaps?

2) Most Turks have more in common to SE Europeans than actual Turks from Central Asia. Both in genetics as well as cultural practice.
 
3) Kafkas, the more bullshit you spew, the dumber you sound. Honestly I dont know if you say what you say because it will make me look dumb (in your mind) or because if you actually believe what your saying.
 
It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out when this happens:
Protest Against Abdullah Gul, due to "Islamic Influences in Government"
 
That something is wrong or disoriented in these people's affiliations with Islam.
 
So you have protest against Gul. Then you have protest against Hijab Ban being lifted. Hmmmm.....lemme think here........


Edited by Mughaal - 04-Mar-2008 at 09:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 13:43
Quote Mughaal
Also, the scholars of the past did ijtihad within reason of Islamic Law, using Shariah as their source of reason
 
Have you studied Islamic law? do you have a basic understanding of the basics?
Islamic law is based upon the holy Qur'an, Sunnah, Hadiths, reasoning, ijtihad to name a few.
 
Shariah is Islamic law, this law is not static or strictly codified, it can be adapted as time progresses.
 
Quote Mughaal
1) There is more to Sufi Islam than wine and spinning. For example Abd al Qadir of North Africa and Imam Shamil of Dagestan. Its just that wine and spinning is the Islam Turks favor. Because there is no accountability perhaps?
 
Turks are not the only ones that spin, its pretty common in Pakistan and India aswell Wink Or arn't you too fond of Qawwali.
 
 
Quote Mughaal
2) Most Turks have more in common to SE Europeans than actual Turks from Central Asia. Both in genetics as well as cultural practice.
 
Turks understanding of Islam is rooted in Central Asia. The Hanafi-Maturidi interpretation of the establishment, the sufi interpretations of the masses. Ahmad Yasavi, Haji Bektashi, Naqshibandi, Mevlana have roots in Central Asia.
 
Turks musical tradition, especially folk style, Ashig/Ozan/Bakshy has roots in Central Asia.
 
The legends, mythology and oral literature, Dede Qorqud, Koroglu, Alpamish, Kokbori(Bozkurt) are Central Asian.
 
Clan and tribal structure obviously is rooted in their origins in Central Asia.
 
Turks of Turkey today for sure have elements of Balkan culture, just as there are elements of Caucasus culture, just as there are elements of Tatar-Turkic culture, just like there are elements of Arab culture especially near the Arab borders.
 
Culture is not "static", it adapts, fuses and grows.
 
You can find various cultural elements, what is most important is that Turks retained their language, identity and history.
 
Quote Mughaal
That something is wrong or disoriented in these people's affiliations with Islam.
 
Who puts you in a position to judge those peoples religousness.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 14:31
Mughaal, first of all you better learn quick the art of mature discourse and stop calling other members derogatory names.
 
Regarding your impression of the pitfalls of modern mentalities and the practice of everyday Islam, to each their own. Nobody has a right to instill a verion of any type religion upon another. That is one of the rights those beautiful protestors raising the Turkish flag know and love so well. Hurriyet! Nothing more of less. As for the assumption that modern Turks do not live in regular orthodox Islam, that is both true and false. However, you will find very knowledgable people in that camp and those that lack the practice of basic tenants in the other. Like I said before, to each their own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 15:02
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Yeah, thats what we do. We define people in their cultural axis. There have been 5 main cultural axis in the world, that have succeedingly and coherently given others their civilization and culture:
-MesoAmerica
-Mediteranean (Greece-Rome-Phoneician-Egypt)
-Iranian
-Hindic
-Sino
 
What im saying is in the grander scheme of things Pakistanis are roughly Indian, Turkoman and Persian type culture, in different degrees and among different people.
 
           You bunch Greek, Rome, Egypt, Mesopotamia and Phoenecia together and then assign Persia a separate place. If you look at Persia's history it was heavily mesopotamized much more than Egypt. Their art, architecture, many cultural motifs, writting (cunniform) was taken from mesopotamia unlike Egypt whose Art, architecture, cultural motifs, writting were all different and distinct from Mesopotamians.  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 18:38
Yes, Mr. Bulldog, I have an idea of Islamic Shariah. Everything from the isnad and matn of hadith and how it transformed into the bibliographies of western history books to the history of islam to the study of tafsir. I am not a master of Islamic Sciences, but I know how they run.
 
Not to mention, Turkey's religious classes are closely monitored by the government, if ya know what I mean. Tongue
 
I am not put in any position, but I can judge for myself.
 
Seko, I agree with everything you say. My point was made that Turks are the least religious of a bunch inside the Muslim Global Community: Ummah.
 
Bilal, as Bulldog says, culture is not static. Persia has created its own culture indefinitely. And cant one argue that India is just an extension of Persian culture?
 
I felt it had something of its own to add, so far every empire or nation upon the lands known as Iran Zamin has embraced Irani culture. From the Turks and Mongols to the Arabs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 19:16
My point was made that Turks are the least religious of a bunch inside the Muslim Global Community: Ummah.
 
and most educated one. They choose to live as muslim, They are not forced to be a muslim(Saudi arabi,iran) or they are not following islam because that is only think they learn from their ancestors.(afghanistan, pakistan.)
 
Comparing saudi people and turkish people are realy ironic. At saudi arabistan, People forced to become muslim. At Turkey, There is a price for following your religion like not entering army or univericity.(for girls)
 
So Turkey is absolutely more religious than others.
 
Or do you think, all arabs are more religious because they can understand kuran better?Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 20:37
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Not to mention, Turkey's religious classes are closely monitored by the government, if ya know what I mean. Tongue


Closely monitored by the government? Umm Turkey's religious schools and classes are government-run! It's to safeguard against foreign and wahabist religious influence. They're called Imam-Hatip schools and there have been many prominent sports players, journalists, entertainers, and politicians who graduated from them. I can't say religious schools in other Muslim communities have done the same for their graduates.

Again, you keep proving you have no idea what Turkey is like and have to rely on your fantasies. With every one of your posts comes another ignorant error..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 00:07
No, Turkey closely monitors its religious institutions, trust me.
 
And Mortaza, being disenfranchised for practicing your religion is something not even British Empire or American Empire do. Its really perverted and lopsided to say it takes more to practice your religion here because we have created superficial boundaries to prevent religious people from an education or allowing various freedoms granted to citizens of the nation (army).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 01:55
Quote Mughaal
No, Turkey closely monitors its religious institutions, trust me.
 
Why should we trust you? nothing you've written has been reliable so far, since when did you become an expert on Turkey, Mortaza lives in Turkey while you have just heard gossip about the country yet we should trust you...
 
Quote Mughaal
My point was made that Turks are the least religious of a bunch inside the Muslim Global Community: Ummah.
 
Your point wasn't made and won't be till you can proove your wild claims.
 
Common wear are you hiding your religious rating index LOL
 
Turks practice religion without force, Islam isn't shoved down their necks.
Do you think people in countries with more theocratic regimes are more religous? I know many people from religiously orientated states like Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iran who are put off by religion.
 
One thing Turks and their communities are sucessfull at is resisting assimilation, third and fourth generation Turks in Germany are still fluent in Turkish and retain their identity. And most are conservatist, religious folk, nobody forces them to be so, its a part of the culture.
 
 
Quote Mughaal
And cant one argue that India is just an extension of Persian culture?
 
Well go ahead and argue your case.
 
As far as I know India is not an extension of Persian culture, there are many cultures in India. India has rich cultures which they themselves developed.
 
 
Quote Mughaal
I felt it had something of its own to add, so far every empire or nation upon the lands known as Iran Zamin has embraced Irani culture.
 
This isn't a unique event.
Most conquerers over time loose their identity, language and customs and become like the people they rule.
 
The Mongols in China overtime lost their identity, French Kings in England became English and so on.
 
What was more unusual were the conquerers bringing their language, identity, customs and replacing the existing ones, the Romans, Arabs, Turks, Slavs, Persians were sucessful in doing this.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 09:14
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Bilal, as Bulldog says, culture is not static. Persia has created its own culture indefinitely. And cant one argue that India is just an extension of Persian culture?
 
 
       Definetly Persia has created its own cultural identity yet a large part  of their culture has its source in Mesopotamian traditions.
 
         And India certainly cannot be called an extension of Persian culture. Influenced by Persian cultural tradition yes but certainly not its extension. And it cuts both ways Perisa has adopted much from India  like chess, music, chicken, mathematics and many cultural traditions (a large part of the 1001 Persian nights is composed of indian oral story traditions).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 11:50
Its really perverted and lopsided to say it takes more to practice your religion here because we have created superficial boundaries to prevent religious people from an education or allowing various freedoms granted to citizens of the nation (army).
 
who is we?
 
I am saying, Turks are choosing to become religious. Saudi arabs are forced to become religious and Pakistanies dont know anything different than becoming religious. which one is more precious? to choose? to be forced? or to continue a tradition?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 12:32
Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:

 
and most educated one. They choose to live as muslim, They are not forced to be a muslim(Saudi arabi,iran) or they are not following islam because that is only think they learn from their ancestors.(afghanistan, pakistan.)
 
 
OMG, that seems to be another generalization!!Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 15:17
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:



Quote Mughaal
No, Turkey closely monitors its religious institutions, trust me.
 
Why should we trust you?




Because he is stuck in a time warp

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 20:26
Bulldog, you dont have to trust me, it wont neccessarily make it untrue though. Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 15:20
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

1... Surely it's lack of freedoms.
2... Being a US puppet
3... The ability to delude yourself in this post it's other reasons than the above two.
 
 
 
 
Well then, according to this brilliantly postulated theory surely the Phillipines and Spain (under Franco) would have had a great relationship in the cold war? Or am i just deluding myself? And seeing how "US puppets" stick together, maybe Pakistan and Israel would be a little more cosy with each other?
 
Or maybe, you're just another europhile who needs to stop judging the world by western social stigmas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 16:49
I think Turkish understanding of Islam is little bit different from, say, Arabic form of Islam. There's no conception of Ummah in Turkey basically - which is because of the nationalization process of Turkish society I believe. Even most religous groups in Turkey don't use the term ummah so much when spreading their propagandas. Not to mention that being a supporter of ummah -or more properly "Ümmetci"- is generally seen as a shame by nationalist groups in Turkey.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 22:08
Mughal, I am sad to hear bad words from a brother Pakistani about us, Turks. Your claim is Turks are the least Islamic nation in the world. Brother we are the most secularised nation. But you cant judge our Islamic identity. We were the prominnent fighters for Islam from 1000-1918. We died, we killed but we never left our religion. So brother , when judging our religion think about the past. We are proud for being muslim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 00:08
Originally posted by The Hidden Face The Hidden Face wrote:

I think Turkish understanding of Islam is little bit different from, say, Arabic form of Islam. There's no conception of Ummah in Turkey basically - which is because of the nationalization process of Turkish society I believe. Even most religous groups in Turkey don't use the term ummah so much when spreading their propagandas. Not to mention that being a supporter of ummah -or more properly "Ümmetci"- is generally seen as a shame by nationalist groups in Turkey.


That's true.

To me the modern concept of an "Ummah" is nothing but a guise for Arab ethnocentrism and cultural nationalism, I think this is also another understanding many Turks have. It's exploiting other people's religious beliefs in order to gain sympathy for secular Arab nationalist causes. Where was the "Ummah" in WWI? Fighting Turkish troops with Lawrence of Arabia and other such characters.

Pakistan is being driven into the ground by a vicious form of so-called "Islamic" fundamentalism, funded in large part by Arabs.


Edited by kafkas - 16-Mar-2008 at 00:11
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