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Forum LockedWhy does Turkey & Pakistan have great friendship?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 11:04
Quote Mughaal
If people already didnt know there were 5 centers of world civilization
 
This sweeping statement is nothing more than the desire to categorise everything into simple black and white.
 
There are fundamental flaws in your theory,, first is that new "civillisations" keep being "discovered" second the idea that somehow there is some cultural continuation where people in these 5 categories stayed the same and everyone falling outside is just a by-product of them.
 
Today the most powerfull culture in the world is American and it falls into none of your categories. In the past centuries Russian culture has been very influential and Russia still maintains a sphere of influence in her region. Arabic and Turkic culture is neither Mediterranean nor Iranic yet is left out of your 5 centres. Thailand and Cambodia do not have cultural continuity with India etc etc
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 11:21
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

(from what is roughly modern day pakistan, the Eastern part,
 
     Why only the eastern part. In case you didn't know Pannini was from the Peshawar valley. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 11:22
Quote Mughaal
My cousin married a Turkish woman from Ankara (we are Pakistanis). I have had Turkish aquaintances and have family that has been to Turkey. From what I understand, these people scoff at Islamic Values.
 
My cousin married a Pakistani woman from Lahor. I have had Pakistani aquaintances and have family that has been to Pakistan. From what I understand "these people" scoff at Islamic values.
 
Oh I see, we must take the views on the individual as that of millions of people Confused
 
Quote Mughaal
Some idiots come up to me and tell me the strangest psychotic bullshit Ive heard. A mix of European Greco-Roman thought (use your brain, logic, etc) and wierd Sufi mysticism and a whole lot of "its what your heart that counts" ..... especially between gulps of alcohol.
 
What has this got to do with Turks.
 
Quote Mughaal
Virulently opposing Islam in any shape and form, keeping it in a book form, being embarrased of Ramadhan, I dont see many praying
 
Can't you make the distinction between an individual and a country.
 
Quote Mughaal
Now im not a religious person, but I damn sure know mainstream Islam, whether Sunni or Shia. What I understand is that the "Muslim" Turks live in Central or Eastern Turkey, the Secular bunch live closest to Europe and along the West coast.
 
What you understand is very little apart from making sweeping pompous statements.
 
A religous person can live anywhere in the world.
 
A persons religousness cannot be "judged" by others.
 
Selimiye Mosque - Edirne, most Western city in Turkey
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 13:12
Bulldog, American Cultural and Political arrangements come from Greco Roman culture. And when I say there are 5 locations of world civilization, I mean there are 5 locations on this earth that have produced recurrent world civilizations in their own shape and axis. For example all 3 of the Turkish empires (Ottoman, Safavid, Mughal) were very Persian in their orientation. Of course, nothing is written in concrete stone. No reason to get your panties bunched up, is there?
 
Secondly, about your humorous attempt to place "pakistani" where i had put "turkish" youd be approximately right to say so, if it were true. To say different people dont have different values is absurd, and your attempt at painting everything in politically correct abstractism is off.
Yes, compared to everyone else in the Muslim World, Turks are extremely secular and embarassed of Islam. Live with it. I know they have masjids, but it doesnt mean they use them en masse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 15:35
...and that is the beauty of Turkey's secular republic. Staunchly individualistic people and social at the same time. Privately uphoding cultural and religious traditions while legislated with secular laws. Having the freedom to seek a lifestyle that is not solely dictated by religion if so desired. That is not an embarrassment but something the orthodox establishment in other muslim countries rarely understand nor appreciate.

Edited by Seko - 03-Mar-2008 at 15:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 17:42
My cousin married a Turkish woman from Ankara (we are Pakistanis). I have had Turkish aquaintances and have family that has been to Turkey. From what I understand, these people scoff at Islamic Values.
 
Than your cousin find a girl from a family which is unislamic. 
 
Now im not a religious person, but I damn sure know mainstream Islam, whether Sunni or Shia. What I understand is that the "Muslim" Turks live in Central or Eastern Turkey, the Secular bunch live closest to Europe and along the West coast.
 
did you learn this from wife of your couisin? Muslim Turks live every part of Turkey, including western part.
 
I dont know what it is about some Muslim countries, but I understand the most "Islam - minded" nations are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Pakistan and Indonesia. But Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco are just out of this world secular.
 
Weird but Turkish people pray at friday praying more than any other countries.  By the way, If this countries are most islamic minded I prefer germany more. When did most islamic mind means most undemocratic and most cruel life?
 
 
Yes, compared to everyone else in the Muslim World, Turks are extremely secular and embarassed of Islam. Live with it. I know they have masjids, but it doesnt mean they use them en masse.
 
It is good, you are teaching us to our country. By the way, when did you come Turkey and see mosques?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 18:51
I found Turks on average more Islamic than Pakistanis when I visted (2005). Urban Pakistanis are fairly unreligious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 19:39

I, firstly hope Mughaal, that you will take the good advice that your co-fourmers have offered you, and stop making sweeping statements that follow neither rhyme nor reason.

For most turks whether they are practicing or non-practicing, being Muslim is also an ethnic identifier. Turkey is not any more religious or irreligious than any other muslim country. Istanbulis i do find to have an open attitude toward alcohol, what that says for there religious convictions i don't know. The only previously muslim people that i sense to generally distance themselves from religion is Albanians proper.
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Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

My cousin married a Turkish woman from Ankara (we are Pakistanis). I have had Turkish aquaintances and have family that has been to Turkey. From what I understand, these people scoff at Islamic Values.


Maybe the members in your family just scoff at your values. Either way they don't speak for an entire nation of people.
 
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:


Some idiots come up to me and tell me the strangest psychotic bullshit Ive heard. A mix of European Greco-Roman thought (use your brain, logic, etc) and wierd Sufi mysticism and a whole lot of "its what your heart that counts" ..... especially between gulps of alcohol. Virulently opposing Islam in any shape and form, keeping it in a book form, being embarrased of Ramadhan, I dont see many praying (although the ones that do pray tend to be supremely "together" in both material and spirit) and outright doing things in the name of Freedom that goes against pretty much every rule in the book.....dont tell me not to judge. I can judge all I want.


Where don't you see people praying? In the Turkish fantasy land in your head? As for judging, it's explicitly not allowed in Islam to judge others. I think in this context you're being a hypocrite.

Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

"So why do you fast during Ramadhan?"
"Well......its good for your body, it cleans out your system....:akward smile: :confused & embarrased look on face:"
 
Now im not a religious person, but I damn sure know mainstream Islam, whether Sunni or Shia. What I understand is that the "Muslim" Turks live in Central or Eastern Turkey, the Secular bunch live closest to Europe and along the West coast.


Hah, where did you hear that bullocks! Typical backwards mentality dividing regions and entire populations into black and white, either they're all infidels or they're all good.
 
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:


I dont know what it is about some Muslim countries, but I understand the most "Islam - minded" nations are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Pakistan and Indonesia. But Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco are just out of this world secular.


If what you mean by "Islam-minded" are backward, archaic places where people don't even know the meaning of citizenship then sure. Since I'm sure you've been to Pakistan, you already know that even the prostitutes in Pakistan and other "Islam-minded" countries wear hijabs and headscarves. Think about that statement for a while.
 
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:


It doesnt bother me, again. But for someone to come up to me and tell me the sky is purple, I just wont be politically correct and smile back like a doofus.


It's not as much about being politically correct as the fact that you're just wrong, and have never been anywhere in Turkey or another Turkic country. Amazing amount of hate and ignorance coming from someone named after a Turkic dynasty.


Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Hmm,
Why do Pakistan and China have a friendship? There is nothing in common there. The reasons our ties with Turkey are strong is that both countrys have many convergent interests. For instance in arms tech both want to be free of western dependance, so when the US applied sanctions on Turkey due to the Kurdish issue (and a coup) we sent them cluster bombs. LOts of Turks have been trained in mountain warfare by us, one of the reasons of the latest incursion in Kurdistan has been a division sized one.


I don't think Turks get training on mountain warfare by Pakistanis, they already have extremely good programs for that as Turkey is also a very mountainous country. The long range missile technology transfer from Pakistan to Turkey is a big deal though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 22:15
Quote Mughaal
Bulldog, American Cultural and Political arrangements come from Greco Roman culture.
 
What aspects of Greco-Roman culture are to be found in mainstream American culture and politics.
 
America is predominantly ruled by a white, protestant elite.
 
Quote Mughaal
 For example all 3 of the Turkish empires (Ottoman, Safavid, Mughal) were very Persian in their orientation.
 
The Mughals had Persian and Northern Hindustani cultural influences.
The Safavids had Kizilbash, Turkmen, Persian cultural influences.
The Ottomans had Turkmen, Arabic, Balkan, North African and Persian cultural influences.
 
These empires ruled over vast regions, they wern't mono-ethnic empires, the various peoples cultures were fused over time.
 
 
 
Quote Mughaal
Secondly, about your humorous attempt to place "pakistani" where i had put "turkish" youd be approximately right to say so, if it were true.
 
You'd be approximately right to say so, if it were "true".
 
Quote Mughaal
Yes, compared to everyone else in the Muslim World, Turks are extremely secular and embarassed of Islam.
 
I guess you have sources which prove this...
I've never heard a more sweeping comment.
 
A country can be secular not people, people who live in the secular state are free to worship as they wish.
Turkey's secularism is not extreme, infact its pretty mild and getting more and more liberal thanks to the current establishment. There is a religous department of affairs which isn't customary in most secular states.
 
There may be some Turks that are embarased of Islam and others that arn't, there may be some Pakistanis embarrased of Islam and others that arn't, there may be some Egyptians embarrased of Islam and others that arn't.
 
A person's degree of religousness (as if it can even be measured) is not determined by where they are from. Living in a state which forces religion on people doesn't make people religous either, infact it can cause a backlash.
 
Quote Mughaal
 Live with it. I know they have masjids, but it doesnt mean they use them en masse.
 
23 million attend friday prayers in Turkey
 
It appears they do use them "en masse"...
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 00:02
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

If people already didnt know there were 5 centers of world civilization, know it now.
 
-Mesoamerica (aztec, mayan, olmec - pretty much extinct though)
-Mediterranean (worlds oldest civilizations - europe, north africa and levant are culture bearers)
-Iranic (iran itself, the caucasus, central asia)
-Sinic (East Asia....all of it)
-Hindic (from what is roughly modern day pakistan, the Eastern part, to indonesia, culture even extends to thailand, cambodia)
 
Yeah, I made it up after intensive thought.
 
these 5 cultural zones are made up by you. I and other people have never heard of these.
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Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Originally posted by saba saba wrote:

what about afghans then?
 
Afghans and Persians can understand each other like Urdu speaking Pakistanis understand Hindi speaking Indians.
 
so, almost 25-30% of pakistanis are Pashtuns, why are you including them with Indians? you logic doesn't make sense at all and i doubt your a pakistani because all your posts are anti pakistan
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Originally posted by saba saba wrote:

 
these 5 cultural zones are made up by you. I and other people have never heard of these.
 
I heard the Middle East is notorious for bad education. I think that extends into South Asia. Why else would it bother you to jog your mind? We all need good critics, as long as they criticize well, and intelligently.
 
Im sorry, your textbook didnt tell you this, therefore it must be a lie.
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Originally posted by saba saba wrote:

so, almost 25-30% of pakistanis are Pashtuns, why are you including them with Indians? you logic doesn't make sense at all and i doubt your a pakistani because all your posts are anti pakistan
 
First you dont understand why Pashtuns are grouped within the Irani cultural axis. Then you pretend you knew it all along and ask why I dont take into account 30% of the population (as opposed to the 70% majority, right?).
 
What you dont do is read carefully because I remember mentioning that Pakistan is in the center of 3 major world zones: Iran, India, China. Therefore it must have members and cultures from all these groups. Nevertheless, its majority punjabi and sindhi/muhajir population relates with India.
 
And ive never heard that punjabis speak a dialect of Parsi. Im willing to believe they speak a language from the Indo-Aryan sub-branch of the Indo-European branch. But no Irani has told me he can understand me and /or my friends.
 
And Pakistan is indeed a very corrupt and useless nation. As long as its history has been, its been going down, and down, and down.
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Quote Mughaal
I heard the Middle East is notorious for bad education. I think that extends into South Asia. Why else would it bother you to jog your mind? We all need good critics, as long as they criticize well, and intelligently.
 
Your cultural zones existed in various times in history, the world does not stay static, todays most influential cultural zones are American, Russian, Japanease and Brittish.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 00:47
So after reading carefully some incoherent and coherent reponses, im ready for a reply.
 
1) Seko - Islamic Laws are both personal and private. There is a reason why Muhammad stoned to death adulterers and threw a gay off a cliff as a crime. Ive found Turkish people have mostly mentioned Islam as a religion of spiritual wine drinking and spinning around in circles and chanting poetry or prayers. The "It doesnt matter, as long as you love Allah" type of crowd. All traits you mention of "Staunchly individualistic people and social at the same time. Privately uphoding cultural and religious traditions while legislated with secular laws. Having the freedom to seek a lifestyle that is not solely dictated by religion if so desired." is staunchly Greco-Roman philosophic thought.
 
Im not against the European model of things, in fact I support it. Its done good for many people where Islam has failed. However what I dont support is dimwits that come to my face and tell me Islam means peace when Muslims invented the suicide bomb. Nor when idiots (not you, rhetorical) tell me Islam is brotherhood when Muslims tend to be their own greatest enemies.
 
2) Mortaza - I am not teaching you about your nation, I am presenting an outside Muslims views about your nation. If you want politically correct bullshit to make you feel good about yourself, stop reading my posts because I am not a politically correct persona. Im not going to tell you its "okay" when you do wrong and I dont sympathize with murderers because they might have had it "rough" in their pasts. Thats not me, im sorry.
 
No one will dare say Lebanese and Saudis are on the same level of freedom, nor should they say Egyptians and Tunisians are at the same level of religion-conciousness.
 
And so im not going to tell you Turks are religious people, especially if 40% of them oppose Islam virulently and seek to make it more "applicable" in modern life and day.
 
What they are are people who dont want to leave the legacy of the Ottoman Empire, and struggle viciferously to make Islam more "nice" and "free" so they can get a coveted ticket into the elite EU club.
 
Yes, I understand the pervading religiousness of Turkey lives in Central Anatolia or in the smaller cities of the nation, as the Western Coast and Istanbul (especially North Istanbul into Europe) tend to have joints and locales and people who would register as Europeanized Greco-Romans and not as Islamicized personalities.
 
3) Kafkas - Actually Muslims are allowed to judge others. I dont know where its not allowed. But again, a fine example of Turkified, Ataturkized "Islam". If you dont sense the irony, then your are off track.
"Hey guys, lets not judge each other!"
"O we arent like those other barbaric Muslim countries, they are so barbaric! With their attempt of Islamic Law (Arab Law)".
 
When a group of Christians came from Yemen, Muhammad commented that "They have made their priests into Gods." When the Christian asked how so, Muhammad told them you have took what your priests told you and left what God has told you. A fine example of judgement. Moreover, making correct and close to precise judgements is what doctors, economists, financial brokers and people living in the ghettos do all day. Judging is a human instinct.
 
I dont know how you understood my criticism and example as a backward mentality dividing people. Please enlighten.
 
Prostitutes wear hijabs in Pakistan? Well, Pakistani Prostitutes dont wear hijab because most Pakistani women wear dupattas, not hijabs. Dupattas cover the breasts, as their heads always go bare (no covering of hair).
Anywho I understand what you mean. In a case like this it would mean that the prostitutes in question live in a society where Islam is practiced, so they conciously wear dupattas to blend in. I dont know much about prostitutes, and ive never been with one, but I would presume prostitutes dont like to have the word "WHORE" all over them. It means more that they are concious about rules of propriety, which is something society takes into account before you step out the door.
 
Ive never been in Turkey but my grandparents, friends are from, and have family friends that have described it to me. There is religion there (as there is religion anywhere), but 40% are virulently opposed to it. Turks in pop culture practice Greco Roman freedom ideals, and not Islamic ideals.
 
And its too damn apparent to pretend they dont.
 
4) Bulldog - You need to read more into American History, American Government and American culture and sociology to understand what toga parties are in college, where they got the word "senator" and where they word "democracy" comes from. It sure didnt come from Punjab.
 
Yes there were other influences besides Irani influence, but overall it was Iranic influence. That is to say the Sassanid Empire was not Irani because there were sogdians in the empire. Which is really....cutting it. Thats the best way I know how to put it.
 
I didnt say all Turks were secular, and if they were I would have nothing to gain or lose. I said Turks are the most secular in the Islamic world; whereas Secularism is forced down the throats of Pakistanis, Syrians, and Egyptians, the Turks welcome it. Their whole attitude to it is indifferent, their attitude to Islam is between lukewarm to cold.
 
23 million Turks out of 70 million are pretty good, only if its only men going and not women. Is that the case?
 
Yes, religiousness of a group cannot be accurately quantified, but measurements are made by social historians and myself. And for a nation to protest a conservative party leader and the Turksih military to be on high alert on the excuse that he was educated in a madrassah and his wife wears hijab has not been heard in any other Muslim nation.
 
Where achievments take a backseat and judgement comes into play. So much for "dont judge" and "individual yet social"....My Ass.
 
So i can make a reasonable estimate at Turkey's religiousiosity.
 
Damn Thank You Very Much.


Edited by Mughaal - 04-Mar-2008 at 00:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 01:08
Mughaal how far do you have to reach into your behind to come up with the things you do?

How old are you?

What do you have against secularism?

Am I right in guessing you live in a Western or secular country, and if you don't, do you enjoy living in a fundamentalist country?

Are you or do you plan to be unemployed?

You seem to have what me and some other people call a brown man's complex.


Edited by kafkas - 04-Mar-2008 at 01:09
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No, Kafkas. What I have is a truth complex. I dont like bullshit. And it doesnt matter my age if im able to reason better than you, correct?
 
Islam doesnt work today. It stopped. So people look into other things and make those things work. Religion is not evil, nor is secularism, as long as they keep you well fed. The End.
 
And actually I can take your posts and throw them back at you. It seems you hate religion, you dont trust it to govern over your affairs. It seems you correlate no job with religion. It seems you believe you need to have a "complex" to support religion.
 
Interesting.


Edited by Mughaal - 04-Mar-2008 at 01:18
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Quote Mughaal
Ive found Turkish people have mostly mentioned Islam as a religion of spiritual wine drinking and spinning around in circles and chanting poetry or prayers. The "It doesnt matter, as long as you love Allah" type of crowd. All traits you mention of "Staunchly individualistic people and social at the same time. Privately uphoding cultural and religious traditions while legislated with secular laws. Having the freedom to seek a lifestyle that is not solely dictated by religion if so desired." is staunchly Greco-Roman philosophic thought.
 
1. You do realise that Sufi Islam is widespread not only in Turkey but the "spiritual wine drinking and spinning around in circles and chanting poetry or prayers" as you like to put it is very popular in India, Pakistan, other Turkic states, the Balkans and North Africa. Sufi thought is more in touch with the folk than ultra-conservatist religous elitists who use their power to try to control and opress the masses.
 
2. Freedom of worship is an Islamic principle.
 
Quote Mughaal
Yes, I understand the pervading religiousness of Turkey lives in Central Anatolia or in the smaller cities of the nation, as the Western Coast and Istanbul (especially North Istanbul into Europe) tend to have joints and locales and people who would register as Europeanized Greco-Romans and not as Islamicized personalities.
 
Turks who would register as Europeanized Greco-Romans LOL
 
 
Quote Mughaal
Yes there were other influences besides Irani influence, but overall it was Iranic influence. That is to say the Sassanid Empire was not Irani because there were sogdians in the empire.
 
The Sassanids culture was formed by a fusion of the various peoples they ruled. The culture was Sassanid.
The state was ruled by Iranics which accounts for the Iranic dominance
As the Turkic states ruled by Turks accounts for Turkic dominance
 
 
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Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

No, Kafkas. What I have is a truth complex. I dont like bullshit. And it doesnt matter my age if im able to reason better than you, correct?
 
Islam doesnt work today. It stopped. So people look into other things and make those things work. Religion is not evil, nor is secularism, as long as they keep you well fed. The End.
 
And actually I can take your posts and throw them back at you. It seems you hate religion, you dont trust it to govern over your affairs. It seems you correlate no job with religion. It seems you believe you need to have a "complex" to support religion.
 
Interesting.


Reasoning, what reasoning? Your post was full of childish name calling, curse words, and random statistics or ramblings based on your fantasies of a country you've never even been to.  There is not one fact or credible statement in any of your comments. Where did I say I hate religion? You still haven't answered any of my questions from my previous post.


Edited by kafkas - 04-Mar-2008 at 02:05
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