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Forum LockedWhy does Turkey & Pakistan have great friendship?

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Mughal e Azam View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 08:12
Boggles my mind.
 
Turkey
-pro secular/anti islamic
-europeanized turks
-speak turkish
-seek membership in EU and want to look European
 
Pakistan
-pro islamic/semi secular
-hindified/indianized people
-speak urdu (form of hindi)
-seek to conqer India one day
 
What do these two nations have in common exactly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 09:29
Pakistani & Indian muslim loyalties to Turkey predate the Turkish republic.

I think there are a couple of historical reasons;
1) Turks founded the two most powerful muslim dynasties in the subcontinent; and are the primary islamic influence, being responsible for the spread of islam on the subcontinent
2) As the Caliph was a Turk, and the Caliph held the loyalties of subcontinent muslims during the British rule, those same loyalties were extended to the Ottoman state, and by inheritance the Republic of Turkey
3) All Pakistani history books I've read portray the Turks as the good guys; there is a certain amount of pro-turkish indoctrination.
4) The distance between the two countries means politics seldom gets in the way.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 02-Mar-2008 at 09:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 13:09
well, I can say same for pakistanies too. They are generally mentioned at turkish history as helper of turkish people. Their help mentioned both at independence war and cyprus operation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 18:36
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Boggles my mind.
 
Turkey
-pro secular/anti islamic
-europeanized turks
-speak turkish
-seek membership in EU and want to look European
 
Pakistan
-pro islamic/semi secular
-hindified/indianized people
-speak urdu (form of hindi)
-seek to conqer India one day
 
What do these two nations have in common exactly?
 
Pakistan is not all Indianized. Like I said before 30% of Pakistanis are Pashtuns, why are you calling them Indianized? and also what is Indianized? Are Punjabis the same as Tamils? There is no such thing as Indianized. Its like Calling all of Europe from England to Greece the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 22:13
Yeah, thats what we do. We define people in their cultural axis. There have been 5 main cultural axis in the world, that have succeedingly and coherently given others their civilization and culture:
-MesoAmerica
-Mediteranean (Greece-Rome-Phoneician-Egypt)
-Iranian
-Hindic
-Sino
 
What im saying is in the grander scheme of things Pakistanis are roughly Indian, Turkoman and Persian type culture, in different degrees and among different people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 22:17
what about afghans then?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 22:27
Quote Mughaal
Yeah, thats what we do. We define people in their cultural axis. There have been 5 main cultural axis in the world, that have succeedingly and coherently given others their civilization and culture:
-MesoAmerica
-Mediteranean (Greece-Rome-Phoneician-Egypt)
-Iranian
-Hindic
-Sino
 
I've never heard of the world being divided into these cultural zones.
 
Mediterranean? there are no Phonecians today and Egyptians and Pakistanis have more in common than Egyptians and Portuguese.
I fail to see the cultural continuity between Croatia and Tunisia or Greece and France.
 
Also Indian-sub continant has a rich and diverse culture.
 
As does South East Asia.
 
As does the Turkic cultures.
 
As do the Russians
 
The Carribean peoples have some unique cultures.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 22:30
Quote Mughaal
What im saying is in the grander scheme of things Pakistanis are roughly Indian, Turkoman and Persian type culture, in different degrees and among different people.
 
Pakistanis have a Pakistani culture, there may be elements from other cultures but these have been adopted, fused, changed and added to the Pakistanis culture.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 22:33
Quote Mughaal
What do these two nations have in common exactly?
 
A deep historical connection
A deep modern day connection, both supporters of each others independance movements and the early founders of the two states had respect for each other.
And the convenience of being far apart enough not to annoy each other and being close enough to build upon the mutual ties.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 23:22
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Boggles my mind.
 
Turkey
-pro secular/anti islamic
-europeanized turks
-speak turkish
-seek membership in EU and want to look European
 
Pakistan
-pro islamic/semi secular
-hindified/indianized people
-speak urdu (form of hindi)
-seek to conqer India one day
 
What do these two nations have in common exactly?


Mughaal judging from your previous posts you seem to have a grudge against Turks, either that or you are grossly ignorant about them.

1. Turks aren't anti-Islamic just because they don't want to adhere to your interpretation of what piety is.
2. Turks don't want to "look European", actually the majority of Turks have ancestry in either the Balkans and the Caucasus, the rest in Anatolia. Turkish culture is inherently the way it is. Maybe it would make you happier if they all wandered the streets unemployed in robes and sandals.

The main reason Turks trust Pakistan is not only because they are Muslim, but because Pakistani governments have always extended their friendship towards Turks in times of difficulty. Also during the massive earthquake the Pakistani government was extremely helpful in sending aid.  Also military technology transfers from one state to another at little to no cost are definitely positive for relations.

Also President Musharraf lived in Turkey from ages 7-13 and was went to school in Ankara. There have been quite a few important "Turkophile" Pakistani leaders, and most Turks appreciate that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 23:41
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Yeah, thats what we do. We define people in their cultural axis. There have been 5 main cultural axis in the world, that have succeedingly and coherently given others their civilization and culture:
-MesoAmerica
-Mediteranean (Greece-Rome-Phoneician-Egypt)
-Iranian
-Hindic
-Sino
 
What im saying is in the grander scheme of things Pakistanis are roughly Indian, Turkoman and Persian type culture, in different degrees and among different people.
 
did you just come up with these cultural zones LOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 01:08
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Quote Mughaal
What do these two nations have in common exactly?
 
A deep historical connection
A deep modern day connection, both supporters of each others independance movements and the early founders of the two states had respect for each other.
And the convenience of being far apart enough not to annoy each other and being close enough to build upon the mutual ties.
LOL
A good a reason as any. BTW, is the friendship really that 'great'?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 01:28
actually pakistan and Turkey only have one country in between them (Iran) i know Iran is big but still not too far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 01:40
1... Surely it's lack of freedoms.
2... Being a US puppet
3... The ability to delude yourself in this post it's other reasons than the above two.
 
 
 


Edited by Paul - 03-Mar-2008 at 01:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 02:46
Originally posted by saba saba wrote:

Pakistan is not all Indianized. Like I said before 30% of Pakistanis are Pashtuns, why are you calling them Indianized? and also what is Indianized? Are Punjabis the same as Tamils? There is no such thing as Indianized. Its like Calling all of Europe from England to Greece the same.

Saba, what I think Mughal means by "indianized" is that he is using that word in the same concept of saying "europeanized."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 03:40
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

1... Surely it's lack of freedoms.
2... Being a US puppet
3... The ability to delude yourself in this post it's other reasons than the above two.
 
 
 


Totally wrong and ignorant remarks Thumbs%20Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 04:10
If people already didnt know there were 5 centers of world civilization, know it now.
 
-Mesoamerica (aztec, mayan, olmec - pretty much extinct though)
-Mediterranean (worlds oldest civilizations - europe, north africa and levant are culture bearers)
-Iranic (iran itself, the caucasus, central asia)
-Sinic (East Asia....all of it)
-Hindic (from what is roughly modern day pakistan, the Eastern part, to indonesia, culture even extends to thailand, cambodia)
 
Yeah, I made it up after intensive thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 04:11
Originally posted by saba saba wrote:

what about afghans then?
 
Afghans and Persians can understand each other like Urdu speaking Pakistanis understand Hindi speaking Indians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 04:17
Originally posted by kafkas kafkas wrote:


Mughaal judging from your previous posts you seem to have a grudge against Turks, either that or you are grossly ignorant about them.

1. Turks aren't anti-Islamic just because they don't want to adhere to your interpretation of what piety is.
2. Turks don't want to "look European", actually the majority of Turks have ancestry in either the Balkans and the Caucasus, the rest in Anatolia. Turkish culture is inherently the way it is. Maybe it would make you happier if they all wandered the streets unemployed in robes and sandals.
 
My cousin married a Turkish woman from Ankara (we are Pakistanis). I have had Turkish aquaintances and have family that has been to Turkey. From what I understand, these people scoff at Islamic Values.
 
Some idiots come up to me and tell me the strangest psychotic bullshit Ive heard. A mix of European Greco-Roman thought (use your brain, logic, etc) and wierd Sufi mysticism and a whole lot of "its what your heart that counts" ..... especially between gulps of alcohol. Virulently opposing Islam in any shape and form, keeping it in a book form, being embarrased of Ramadhan, I dont see many praying (although the ones that do pray tend to be supremely "together" in both material and spirit) and outright doing things in the name of Freedom that goes against pretty much every rule in the book.....dont tell me not to judge. I can judge all I want.
 
"So why do you fast during Ramadhan?"
"Well......its good for your body, it cleans out your system....:akward smile: :confused & embarrased look on face:"
 
Now im not a religious person, but I damn sure know mainstream Islam, whether Sunni or Shia. What I understand is that the "Muslim" Turks live in Central or Eastern Turkey, the Secular bunch live closest to Europe and along the West coast.
 
I dont know what it is about some Muslim countries, but I understand the most "Islam - minded" nations are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Pakistan and Indonesia. But Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco are just out of this world secular.
 
It doesnt bother me, again. But for someone to come up to me and tell me the sky is purple, I just wont be politically correct and smile back like a doofus.


Edited by Mughaal - 03-Mar-2008 at 04:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 05:54
Hmm,
Why do Pakistan and China have a friendship? There is nothing in common there. The reasons our ties with Turkey are strong is that both countrys have many convergent interests. For instance in arms tech both want to be free of western dependance, so when the US applied sanctions on Turkey due to the Kurdish issue (and a coup) we sent them cluster bombs. LOts of Turks have been trained in mountain warfare by us, one of the reasons of the latest incursion in Kurdistan has been a division sized one.
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