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Forum LockedWhy did Portugal never join Spain?

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    Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 22:04
the Spanish kingdoms fought back to gain the Penninsula back from the Muslims. Portugal was there too, but today, Portugal is not part of Spain. Other parts of Spain spoke different languages too, but their kingdoms were joined into one Spain. so why did Portugal never become a part of Spain as well? Was there ever an attempt? I'd imagine Spain could of been much stronger if this happend.

Edited by lastbout
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 03:07

1. Portugal was formed before Spain.

2. Portugal was recognised by the Roman Catholic Church 1179. The united Spain formed by merging the kingdoms of Castilla and Aragón was established only in 1516, after they ousted the Muslim rulers in Granada in 1492.

3. Portugal did merge briefly with Spain in 1580 when the Portuguesse King Henrique died heirless. Philip I to Philip III of Habsburg (Spain) ruled both territories.

4. Philip IV lost Portugal to Duke of Braganza João IV in 1640. But the war lasted until 1668 before Spain admitted its formation. Peace treaty was signed between Portugal and Spain, mediated by Charles II of England. In between, Portugal signed on with several European rivals of Spain who preferred not to have Spain control the entire Iberian Peninsula.

5. Spain kissed Portugal bye bye, but still engaged in dispute with Portugal over Olivenza, a border area, until today.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 08:01

Originally posted by snowybeagle snowybeagle wrote:

3. Portugal did merge briefly with Spain in 1580 when the Portuguesse King Henrique died heirless.

Yeah, and Spain's tercios moving into Portugal and the Azores had something to do with that deal too.

Quote Philip I to Philip III of Habsburg (Spain) ruled both territories.

Philip I?

Portugal was annexed by Spain in 1580, during the reign of Philip II.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 20:51
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner wrote:

Philip I?

Portugal was annexed by Spain in 1580, during the reign of Philip II.

Sorry. My mistake.

He was Philip II of Spain but known as Philip I of Portugal, like James VI of Scotland was also James I of England.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 06:45

Boy, I do love this kind of questions....

First of all, there were two attempts from Spain (one from Castilla-Léon and one from Spain as we know it today, to be more precise) to conquer Portugal, both due to dinastical quarrels in Portugal, in 1383-85 and 1578-80. This last one was successful, since the rightful heir, the Duke of Parma, gave his rights to Philip II of Habsburg.

On the other hand, there were at least five attemps of Portuguese conquest of Spain, two by marriage, two due to spanish dinastical problems and just simply because the Portuguese king wanted Spain... Of course, all of them failed.

As for the spanish successful attempt, it had been proved during the middle ages that although superior in numbers, the Castillans/Spanish were never as strong as their neighbours, who saw in the spanish one of their main courses, along with arabs and french. So old Philip took a wiser decision and simply briebed Portugal's nobility, who then elected him King. A bit like his own father Charles V in his bid to become Holy Roman Emperor.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aquila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2005 at 20:57
Originally posted by snowybeagle snowybeagle wrote:

1. Portugal was formed before Spain.


2. Portugal was recognised by the Roman Catholic Church 1179. The united Spain formed by merging the kingdoms of Castilla and Aragó® ·as established only in 1516, after they ousted the Muslim rulers in Granada in 1492.


3. Portugal did merge briefly with Spain in 1580 when the Portuguesse King Henrique died heirless. Philip I to Philip III of Habsburg (Spain) ruled both territories.


4. Philip IV lost Portugal to Duke of Braganza Jo㯠IV in 1640. But the war lasted until 1668 before Spain admitted its formation. Peace treaty was signed between Portugal and Spain, mediated by Charles II of England. In between, Portugal signed on with several European rivals of Spain who preferred not to have Spain control the entire Iberian Peninsula.


5. Spain kissed Portugal bye bye, but still engaged in dispute with Portugal over Olivenza, a border area, until today.

You got it right on the nose. Thanks alot for stealing what I would have written.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheOrcRemix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 04:42

ARG

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 03:45

 

 Now I'm thinking I don't know much about the Portuguese. Just wandering what is the origins of the Portuguese and how they differ from say the castillans (noting that spanish is hardly a race). 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 19:03
But in the early early stages of the Reconquesta, the county of Leon (Asturias) had regained territory far south of Porto (in modern northern Portugal) before a County of Portugal appreared on any map....

So, was there some sort of independence movement that orginally separated Portugal from Leon?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote faram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 03:30

Alfonso VI, King of León, conquered the land as far as river Tajo and, in 1094 gave the "Terra Portucalense" as a county to Enrique de Borgoña, married with his bastard daughter, Teresa.

When Alfonso died he declared Portugal independent. He acted as an independent during the crisis in the kingdom of Castilla-León. When Enrique died his wife declared herself Queen and fought against Urraca, Queen of Castilla-León. Portuguese nobility rebelled against  Teresa, supporting her son, Alfonso Enríquez. He took the title of King as Alfonso I Enríquez (1139) after defeating her mother in Sao Mamede (1128) and a muslim army in Ourique (1138), and was recognized as that by Alfonso VII of Castilla and León in 1143.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote faram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 03:53
There was another attempt to merge Portugal with Spain: Isabel, the elder daughter of the Catholic Kings, was married with Alfonso, Prince of Portugal, but he died in 1491, she was married then wit Manuel "the lucky", their son, Miguel, would have inherited Portugal, Castilla and Aragon, but he died in 1500, making impossible (Isabel has already died) the penninsular union.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 13:52
Originally posted by faram faram wrote:

Alfonso VI, King of León, conquered the land as far as river Tajo and, in 1094 gave the "Terra Portucalense" as a county to Enrique de Borgoña, married with his bastard daughter, Teresa.

When Alfonso died he declared Portugal independent. He acted as an independent during the crisis in the kingdom of Castilla-León. When Enrique died his wife declared herself Queen and fought against Urraca, Queen of Castilla-León. Portuguese nobility rebelled against  Teresa, supporting her son, Alfonso Enríquez. He took the title of King as Alfonso I Enríquez (1139) after defeating her mother in Sao Mamede (1128) and a muslim army in Ourique (1138), and was recognized as that by Alfonso VII of Castilla and León in 1143.



Cool, thanks for the info.

So what you are saying is that there was no real independence movement on the part of the Portugese, things just sort of fell into their lap and they took things from there....

Was the Portugese language already evolving as a distinct entity at this point?  Or was it still in a sort of a "dialect" stage when compared to the rest of Christian Spain?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2005 at 13:23

The question should be 'why did Portugal never join Castile?'

The Portuguese language was seperate from Castillian and Leonese, but indistinct from Galician at this period of time. Some Galicians still say that Portuguese is really Galician modified due to moorish influence.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 02:15
Interesting - my next question is then how many differernt dialects/languages were there at this time?  And how do only Castillian and Catalan survive in big numbers today?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 05:22
Actually, there was an independist movement that spur just before the death of count Henry of Burgundy, but it came not from the Portucalese County, but from the more powerfull County of Coimbra, that got into Henry's hands few after he arrived at Portucale. It was the nobility there that spurred an at the time "puppet" called Afonso Henriques. He would later give them a runarround, estabilishing himself at the town of Coimbra, that was made first capital of Portugal. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote faram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2005 at 05:50

Originally posted by Jazz Jazz wrote:

Interesting - my next question is then how many differernt dialects/languages were there at this time?  And how do only Castillian and Catalan survive in big numbers today?

Well, dialects derived from Latin were the Castillian, Catalan, Astur-leonese, Navarran-aragonese, Galaic-portuguese and Mozarab.

Mozarab was the romance language spoken by the Christians, and the low classes in the muslim lands, Galaic-portuguese has derivated in current Portuguese and Galician, Astur-leonese has became Bable (in Asturias) and Leones (spoken in some places in León), Navarran-aragonese has derived in aragonese.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 03:53
The ancient Spaniards & Portuguess ( Spanish people ) were basically of same origin before the Viking conquest of coastal area that carved out to became known as " Portugal " and split further by invasion & settlement of Spain proper by the N African Muslim Moors.
 
As we can see today,both blood brothers never could merge back as one kingdom with Spain & Portugal remain as 2 separate independent nations that speak similiar intelligible Latin tongues LOL.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seomis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 11:29
You forget one language: the Basque. Also, one hint about the founding of Portugal. The role played by count Vímara Peres and other nobles such the first count of Chaves as well the first count of Coimbra.Those lands were given to nobles from Asturias or Leon that leave is ancestral lands and with soldiers and colonist they come south fallowing the expansion of Reconquista. There mission is to colonize the land that is a"dead zone" (no population or castles and villages) and to form a "limes christianorum" and from there the Reconquista will continue to south. also these lands served as a defensive frontier to the christian kings. So Portugal was in reality to counties: Portucale and Coimbra. The first dinasty of Portuguese counts was a very important family in the kingdom of Leon. One member of that family was regent of the kingdom during the minority of king Alfonso V the Noble. The last count of that dinasty was killed in the batle of Pedroso (1071) by the forces of king Garcia of Galicia, after he enter in rebellion against the king. After that Garcia took the title of King of Portugal and Galicia. So Portugal since 868 when Vímara Peres took the northern regions become a force first inside the kingdom of Leon and afterwards under the rule of the House of Burgundy finally fullfil is destiny.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thorvald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 10:05
Spain itself is not one ethnicity, here you have the Catalans, Basques, Galicians, etc.
 
Quite normally, Portugal has no interest nor need to join Spain and give up its own nationality, independence and origin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orderic Vitalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2009 at 04:51
Spain itself may break up, as both the Basques and the Catalans have political parties which support independence.  Spain is somewhat a country created by royal marriages, not by lingering feelings of nationalism.
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