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Forum LockedWhy did Ming left Mongolians alone in the North?

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    Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 18:18
I was wondering... when Ming Dynasty pushed the Mongolians out of China... why didn't they bothered to just finish them off? They conquered much of China, and Mongolian resistance was weak... so what happened? Why did Ming began to concentrate on her defense?
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 13:52
They didn't really leave them alone. They destroyed Harhorin and Etsina, and one of the early emperors (Yong Le?) led five expeditions into the steppes. Apparently these expeditions didn't have any lasting effect, or at least wikipedia gives that impression: "it should be noted that after Yongle's second personal campaign against the Mongols, the Northern Ming Dynasty was at peace for over seven years".
 
It's probably quite difficult to feed an army in Mongolia, and finding/ pursuing/getting hold of a highly mobile enemy isn't easy either.
 
Addendum: There was also quite a lot of diplomacy going on to drive different Mongolian tribes against each other, sometimes more, sometimes less successfully.


Edited by yan. - 11-Feb-2007 at 13:55
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The Ming was clearly no match for the mobile Mongolian cavalry.
The Mongols used "people's war" tactics, burning of grass, luring the Ming
deep into the heartland, cutting off their supplies and applying full cavalry
momentum to weak spots.
Classic example is the Ming disaster at Tumu.
Another ticking bomb in the ming army are the numerous mongol conscripts with dubious loyalty.
 
The Ming dynasty was one of the biggest jokes and parodies in Chinese
history. Had the relieving Mongol army not quarrelled with the Dadu
(beijing) high command of the Yuan, Zhu yuanzhang would have been
smashed and cut to pieces in front of Beijing.
The Yuan collapsed, but the Yuan's army, particularly it's highly effective
cavalry was still much in one piece.
Mongols like to say that the Yuan continued as the Northern Yuan or
Bei Yuan, now Chinese historians are acknowledging this, and 3 of the greatest Bei Yuan leaders are:
1. Esen Hongtaiji - Oirat victor at tumu
2. Dayan Khan
3. Altan Khan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MING-LOYALIST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 19:39
however during hongwu and Yongle reign the Ming army was chasing the Mongols all over the steepes.
It was only after death of Yongle that Ming became more defensive and isolationist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 21:28
Yongle was the best cavalry commander this side of the Tarim Basin, and the the best overall non-European commander not named Tamerlane in his era.  His best cavalry troops were the Duoyan riders, recruited from Mongolia and loyal to his command.

The reason for lack of Ming incursion into Mongolia after Yongle was economic.  Invading Mongolia provided little economic benefit.  For example, Qi Jiguang's garrisons in the north forced the Mongol Khan to sue for peace.  When Qi Jiguang asked Zhang Juzheng circa 1575 permission to invade Mongolia, Zhang refused to, instead opting to sign a treaty with the Mongol Khan to open up markets.  Once markets opened, manufacturing products exchanged for diary products, raids from Mongolia ceased, and peace lasted until the Manchu invasions.

Source: 1587: A Year of No Significance, by Ray Huang.


Edited by poirot - 11-Feb-2007 at 21:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 07:43
The Northern Yuan existed just nominally most of the time. In fact, various groups were fighting one civil civil war after the other, just like they had done before Chinggis came to power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 02:26
Originally posted by poirot poirot wrote:

  For example, Qi Jiguang's garrisons in the north forced the Mongol Khan to sue for peace.  ..............................................................................................................................  Once markets opened, manufacturing products exchanged for diary products, raids from Mongolia ceased, and peace lasted until the Manchu invasions.

Source: 1587: A Year of No Significance, by Ray Huang.
 
That Mongol Khan was Altan Khan of Tumed Mongols.
During Yuan, Mongols were used to have more chinese goods, so they needed it even after Yuan Empire collapse. Mongols supply horse, animals or some raw materials which Chinese might not need as much as Mongols need chinese goods. Mongols, specially aristocrats desperately needed chinese silk and textile. .
Most war between Mongol and Ming was about solution on trading dispute. If Ming close trading ports, Mongol cavalery knock the door.
Maybe it might sound like British gunboat diplomacy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 03:56
Originally posted by poirot poirot wrote:

Yongle was the best cavalry commander this side of the Tarim Basin,
 
An additional comment on Yongle...
 
If someone familiar with "Altan Tochiyan"- Golden Chronicle written by Mongol Lubsandanzan in between 1651-1676, would know that Mongols considered Youngle as son of last Yuan Emperor's  Toguntimur. Maybe it is myth, but there are many facts that may link him something to do Mongols.
 
1. But Yongle certainly had character of Mongol ruler and many Mongols enlisted in his service. 
 
2. He led several successful campaign against Mongols. If you apply "Mongols beat Mongols only", it would be interesting. Mongols were already fighting among themselves during the Yuan collapse.
 
3. Mongols or remnants of Yuan stayed close or loyal to Yongle only inlcuding Yuan official's castrated son Zheng He (-典赤‧瞻思丁 (Sai-Dian-Zhi Zhan-Si-Ding, Sayyid Shams al-Din)
 
4. He contintued Naval tradition of Yuan Empire. Only after his death real Han officials burned the Yongle's Naval fleet and destroyed the naval documents. I wonder why?
 
5. Yongle always prefered to stay in Beijing as opposed to Nanjin like Yuan Emporers.
 
6. Emperor Hongwu did not name Yongle as a successor at all although Yongle had lots of military and political achievements. Even after death of Prince of Jin, emporer Hongwu still did not name Yongle as successor. Grandson, Zhu Yunwen became Emporer Jianwen.
 
7. He used extensive Mongol force against Emporer Jianwen.  Han official always regarded his action as "usurping the throne through illegal means". Yongle brutally repressed anykind of challenges.
 
8. Yongle was not Confucian at all, he was Buddhist like Yuan Emporers. He treated Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism.
 
9. His main challenge was Northern Yuan. Unlike Khubilai, he could not destroy his rivals of Northern Yuan. But great lengths were taken by Yongle to eradicate Mongolian culture from China.
 
These are just some point, of course questionable. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 11:53
Originally posted by ProMongol ProMongol wrote:

Originally posted by poirot poirot wrote:

Yongle was the best cavalry commander this side of the Tarim Basin,
 
An additional comment on Yongle...
 
If someone familiar with "Altan Tochiyan"- Golden Chronicle written by Mongol Lubsandanzan in between 1651-1676, would know that Mongols considered Youngle as son of last Yuan Emperor's  Toguntimur. Maybe it is myth, but there are many facts that may link him something to do Mongols.
 
1. But Yongle certainly had character of Mongol ruler and many Mongols enlisted in his service. 
 
2. He led several successful campaign against Mongols. If you apply "Mongols beat Mongols only", it would be interesting. Mongols were already fighting among themselves during the Yuan collapse.
 
3. Mongols or remnants of Yuan stayed close or loyal to Yongle only inlcuding Yuan official's castrated son Zheng He (-典赤‧瞻思丁 (Sai-Dian-Zhi Zhan-Si-Ding, Sayyid Shams al-Din)
 
4. He contintued Naval tradition of Yuan Empire. Only after his death real Han officials burned the Yongle's Naval fleet and destroyed the naval documents. I wonder why?
 
5. Yongle always prefered to stay in Beijing as opposed to Nanjin like Yuan Emporers.
 
6. Emperor Hongwu did not name Yongle as a successor at all although Yongle had lots of military and political achievements. Even after death of Prince of Jin, emporer Hongwu still did not name Yongle as successor. Grandson, Zhu Yunwen became Emporer Jianwen.
 
7. He used extensive Mongol force against Emporer Jianwen.  Han official always regarded his action as "usurping the throne through illegal means". Yongle brutally repressed anykind of challenges.
 
8. Yongle was not Confucian at all, he was Buddhist like Yuan Emporers. He treated Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism.
 
9. His main challenge was Northern Yuan. Unlike Khubilai, he could not destroy his rivals of Northern Yuan. But great lengths were taken by Yongle to eradicate Mongolian culture from China.
 
These are just some point, of course questionable. 
 
 


1.  Yes, because Yongle spent his early days accompanying the Ming army in its campaigns north in Mongol occupied areas.  Unlike the typical prince who was educated in Confucian texts, his education consisted primarily of learning Mongol cavalry tactics, which he came to excel upon.

2. His campaigns while being emperor were successful in neutralizing the Mongol threat, but not in completely eradicating it.  His earlier campaigns before becoming emperor, however, were genius.  One time, he forced an entire Mongol camp to surrender without inflicting one casualty.

3. Zheng He was a desecent of Arabs from Bukhara who served the Mongols in Yunan Province.

4. Subject to debate.  Personally, I do not think government led naval expeditions were economically as effective as private enterprise (i.e. joint stock ventures like the East India Company).  Check out my article on Zheng He's expeditions and why they had to end.

5.  Because as Prince of Yan, his power base was in Beijing.

6.  Good point.

7.  Another good point.  The elite Mongol cavalry crack troops that Yongle used were called the Duoyan Riders, who originally served Yongle's brother, the Prince of Ning.  Yongle bribed the Duoyan Riders to serve him, and the riders proved crucial in later battles.

8.  He used any religion that helped consolidate power.

9.  Correct.

The rumors that Yongle was the son of the last Yuan emperor stemmed from the rumor that the Yuan emperor's concubine, who later became a concubine of Hongwu, was already pregnant at capture.  Similarily, it was rumored that the last Yuan emperor was, in fact, a descendant of the last Song emperor, who was forced to become a monk at a Tibetan buddhist monastery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 18:29
Originally posted by poirot poirot wrote:


The rumors that Yongle was the son of the last Yuan emperor stemmed from the rumor that the Yuan emperor's concubine, who later became a concubine of Hongwu, was already pregnant at capture. 
Yeah I read Altan Tovchiyan. It really pisses off Mongols. It creates possibilities of making Ming Emporers to Chingisids.
Book is book. Written in old times, you can not just ripoff that part.
 
Originally posted by poirot poirot wrote:

Similarily, it was rumored that the last Yuan emperor was, in fact, a descendant of the last Song emperor, who was forced to become a monk at a Tibetan buddhist monastery.
I never heard that story. It really sounds like rumor. It would take quite imagination to make bestseller out of it.
Time between last Song emporer's dissapearance or death and Mongols collapse in Beijing is almost 100 years.


Edited by ProMongol - 19-Feb-2007 at 18:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 12:08

Add more rumors to Yongle.

I read somewhere that Yongle's mother was Korean. 
 
Still my top five favorite Emperors.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 13:29
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye jiangweibaoye wrote:

Add more rumors to Yongle.

I read somewhere that Yongle's mother was Korean. 
 
Still my top five favorite Emperors.
 
Jiangwei


This might be true.  Hongwu did enjoy Korean concubines.  We know that Yongle's birth mother cannot be Empress Ma.  Who then, is his real birth mother?

1. Yongle rumored to be the son of Mongol concubine (Chinese name Wong Fei) captured at the fall of Dadu.  This is pure rumor, because Dadu fell in 1368; at the time, Yongle was already 8 years old.

2. Yongle was the son of a Korean concubine.  We have no proof to prove or disprove this theory.

3. Yongle was the son of a minor concubine who died before Hongwu was crowned emperor.  This is the most possible.
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Despite the Duoyan riders, and other mongol troops the Ming used.
1. The Ming were never able to subjugate the northern yuan.
2. Altan Khan had the foresight to see a long term strategic relationship with the Ming. But, the Ming emperor at that time refused any dealings with the Mongols. Altan led his troops and defeated the Ming several times, even burning the suburbs of Beijing, he finally forced the Ming emperor to forge a strategic relation with the northern yuan. Henceforth, the eventual peace between the Ming and Mongols was forged by a Mongol,
Altan Khan , rather than the Ming empire.
3. The Ming became so weak and corrupt that she could not
prevent the rise of a new threat in the northeast, the Manchus under Nurhaci. Despite the peace between the Ming
and the Mongols, many Mongol tribes flocked to the Manchu
banner: Keerqin, Kharacin, Tumaat, Yungshiyebu, Chahar,
Sonid. Practically all the tribes in Inner Mongolia joined
the Manchu banner. This massive flux of cavalry ensured
Manchu victory in the field of battle with the Ming.
The whole Ming policy towards the Mongols was a bitter
failure from beginning to end.Had they managed it better with Altan Khan, the Manchus would never have any chance, for the best cavalrymen inthe world, the Mongols would be fighting for the Ming .
Correct me if I am wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 11:06
3. Zheng He was a desecent of Arabs from Bukhara who served the Mongols in Yunan Province
 
I doubt he was an Arab, his father was "Mir Tekin", a Turkic name, unless his father had a Turkic name? which would have been very unusual as it isn't a religous name and doesn't mean anything in Arabic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 12:34
Zheng He can not be arab.
He can be Central Asian turkic person and certainly Mongol too.


Edited by ProMongol - 26-Feb-2007 at 12:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:02
when I meant Arab, I did not mean Arab from Arabia, but within the Arab/Islamic culture.  Zheng He's ancestors were from Bukhara; they could be Turkic or descendants of Persians or Arabs from the Arab conquest.

Edited by poirot - 26-Feb-2007 at 14:02
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His father's name was "Mir Tekin", it's likely he was Mongolian, Turkic, Turco-Mongol.
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Northern Yuan Khanate remain its power even withdraw from Beijing, Ming Chinese destoryed several cities on steppes, however Mongols were nomads, who didn't defend their cities like chinese or others did. Ming launched at least several wars against Mongols, but none of those really destoryed Mongols virtually, and Mongols finally defeated Ming troops and Ming emperor even became captive of Mongols. During rule of Dayan Khan and Altan Khan, Mongols were more powerful than Ming militarily.
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The Rise of the Machu had much to do with the later incompetence of the Ming and several wars they were fighting at that time (Imjin, and those against SE Asia) and even then, the Ming was really brought down by the rebels within.

It is true that the Ming's failure to truely subdue the Mongols was a diplomatic failure rather than an military one, as they were quiet successful in the early goings against them. the Machu's success had much to do with diplomatic alliances . as we are all aware, the most influential queen (outside of CiXi) for the Qing dynasty was a pure Mongol.

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Originally posted by cliveersknell cliveersknell wrote:

The Ming was clearly no match for the mobile Mongolian cavalry.
The Mongols used "people's war" tactics, burning of grass, luring the Ming
deep into the heartland, cutting off their supplies and applying full cavalry
momentum to weak spots.
Classic example is the Ming disaster at Tumu.
Another ticking bomb in the ming army are the numerous mongol conscripts with dubious loyalty.
 
The Ming dynasty was one of the biggest jokes and parodies in Chinese
history. Had the relieving Mongol army not quarrelled with the Dadu
(beijing) high command of the Yuan, Zhu yuanzhang would have been
smashed and cut to pieces in front of Beijing.
The Yuan collapsed, but the Yuan's army, particularly it's highly effective
cavalry was still much in one piece.
Mongols like to say that the Yuan continued as the Northern Yuan or
Bei Yuan, now Chinese historians are acknowledging this, and 3 of the greatest Bei Yuan leaders are:
1. Esen Hongtaiji - Oirat victor at tumu
2. Dayan Khan
3. Altan Khan
r's
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