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pinguin ![]() Editorial Staff ![]() ![]() Joined: 29-Sep-2006 Location: Chile Status: Offline Points: 7508 |
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Why to believe in God? Why not?
Actually, i am agnostic. Which simply means I don't know the answer if God exist or not.
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"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."
Inca Pachacutec (1438-1471) |
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Adalwolf ![]() Chieftain ![]() ![]() Joined: 08-Sep-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1232 |
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Why believe in gods? Because you can see their work in everything. You can feel their presence. And frankly, because it is right. |
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Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
Edward Abbey |
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Parnell ![]() Chieftain ![]() ![]() Joined: 04-Apr-2007 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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No its not. I'm not a scientist, and I cannot properly discuss science with people who know it, who work with it or study it. I suppose in a way this does make me a 'believer' in science as opposed to someone who truly understands it. I look at it as a matter of reason. Over time people needed answers to questions far beyond their capacities to answer. Religion filled that gap. Now science has offered reasonable answers. Therefore religion is no longer required. Thats how I view it. |
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"Neither apathy nor antipathy can ever bring out the truth of history" Eoin Mac Neill.
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Parnell ![]() Chieftain ![]() ![]() Joined: 04-Apr-2007 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
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I should probably add that I'm 10% Christian, 80% agnostic and 10% Atheist, depending on mood. Somedays I see something which makes me think there is a pattern to everything - sort of like fate.
Then all I have to do is remind myself of times when I took pretty strong weed or ecstasy, when I was convinced that the world had a pattern and that I was somehow an integral part of it... So yeah, I view religion as an illusion. Don't get me wrong, a very comfertable illusion I'm sure but not one I've ever found myself really believing. P.S- Barbarossa: It is impolitic to compare me to Paul ![]() |
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"Neither apathy nor antipathy can ever bring out the truth of history" Eoin Mac Neill.
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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I'm worried somewhat by the phrasing of the question. 'Why believe in God' seems to indicate a choice is being made - it implies that there is some motive or reason for believing in God - some expectation of gain in doing so. But surely anyone who 'believes in God' simply for some reason or another doesn't really believe in God at all?
This isn't to deny there are people who profess belief in God in the expectation of some kind of gain, emotional or otherwise, because there obviously are.
There's another way of reading the question in which it asks for the causes of belief in God- as one might ask what evolutionary benefits does the belief in God provide, or discuss how far it is a question of nurture or nature or both combining. In that case however there is no question of choice involved, and I'm kind of interested in how far someone who chooses to believe in God (or anything else) can be said really to believe.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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Cryptic ![]() General ![]() Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 901 |
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Sure it does. The environmentalist movement is heavily atheist / agnsotic. The gospels of environmentalism, global warming and the purported concequences are used to advance political and social agendas. At times, violence is used against blasphamers. (Environmental terrorism). Some believers make extreme sacrifices (Italian couple that sterilized themselves for the "sake of the planet"). The high priests of atheism / environmentalism continously solicit donations from the faithful using the same psychological leverages as theists. Some of the high priests of Atheism undoubtably embezzle or misuse the donations sent by their faithful.
Some Atheist high priests are guilty of hypocrisy by using science to "disprove" a belief in a divine being while pushing the psuedo science of global warming as their own "gospel", a gospel that is not subject to question or rejection. Those that do, are of course, guilty of blasphemy.
Well said. Edited by Cryptic - 06-Jun-2009 at 14:28 |
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Constantine XI ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Lord of Hut River Province Principality Joined: 01-May-2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5711 |
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[quote=Cryptic]}
Sure it does. The environmentalist movement is heavily atheist
/ agnsotic. The gospels of environmentalism, global warming and the
purported concequences are used to advance political and social
agendas. At times, violence is used against blasphamers.
(Environmental terrorism). Some believers make extreme sacrifices
(Italian couple that sterilized themselves for the "sake of the
planet"). The high priests of atheism / environmentalism continously
solicit donations from the faithful using the same psychological
leverages as theists. Some of the high priests of Atheism undoubtably
embezzle or misuse the donations sent by their faithful.
Some Atheist high priests are guilty of hypocrisy by using science
to "disprove" a belief in a divine being while pushing the psuedo
science of global warming as their own "gospel", a gospel that is not
subject to question or rejection. Those that do, are of course, guilty
of blasphemy. {/quote]
provide evidence for your claims, then we can discuss them (one couple getting sterilised does not count as evidence for a demographic which encompases an average of 15% of the developed world's population) |
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It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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No it isn't at least not particularly. In fact a whole swathe of it has overt religious associations including a lot of New Age and Gaian believers as well as adherents of more established religions.
In fact I have no idea where you get the idea from. Most of the environmentalists I meet, especially the fundamentalist ones are heavily religious. Very little of the movement seems to be concerned with the immmediate practical issues that on the whole one would expect from the irreligious or the humanists, like me.
That's pretty religious behaviour. Sounds very like the cult of Cybele. Or indeed some early Christian examples. http://tinyurl.com/oszqsw
Same point. And to conflate atheism with environmentalism is simply ridiculous.
Why you should claim that only religious people pollute the atmosphere or destroy the forests or use up inordinate amounts of plastic I have no idea. Personally I know lots of religious people who are very meticulous in that regard.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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Seko ![]() Administrator ![]() ![]() Superfluous Enabler of Sekostan Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8681 |
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Regardless of the learning curve, how do the natural sciences reject divinity?
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Copyright © 2004 Seko
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Cryptic ![]() General ![]() Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 901 |
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The ones I have met are very secular. Likewise the literature that I read presented by these groups did not contain any religious messages. Of course, here in the the USA, declared atheists are rare. So that raises the question of when does a very nominal Christian etc become a de facto atheist or agnostic.
You are right, it is religious behavior. The followers simply substituted subserviance to theistic beliefs with subserviance to science / environmentalism. As Omar pointed out, the underlying concepts are the same.
I did not conflate it. I simply stated that enviromentalism is heavily atheist or agnsotic. Edited by Cryptic - 06-Jun-2009 at 17:02 |
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Emperor Barbarossa ![]() Editorial Staff ![]() ![]() Joined: 15-Jul-2005 Location: Pittsburgh, USA Status: Offline Points: 2882 |
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I'm actually more atheist than I was a couple years ago (I went from 50% chance of divine powers, purely agnostic agnostic, to a more atheist belief through equating it the chances of ghosts, fairies, etc. ~1%). Actual atheism is simply the disbelief in theism, so I think almost anyone that does not believe in a god qualifies.
How is the environmentalist movement atheist? Al Gore, if you want to call him the "high priest" of environmentalism, is religious. Besides, many religious people are environmentalist because they view destroying this world with destroying God's own precious and special creation.
I think the fact that the natural sciences do not directly confirm and show that divinity is not necessary does not help divinity's claims. I mean, time after time natural science has replaced the absurd divine myths that man used to explain the world in ancient times.
Faith in science is about the same faith as the faith in my senses. When you can sense something, it's not faith, it's real, it's tangible, it's there.
I meant it in the best way possible. ![]() |
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Cryptic ![]() General ![]() Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 901 |
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I did not say that it was atheist, I said that it was heavily atheist or agnostic. This is especially so as one moves towards the more extreme groups. There are exceptions (Al Gore). The core concept is that these people have simply substituted faith in science as expressed through environmentalism for theistic faith. Read the material of the environmentalists. They have in effect created their own secula religion.
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Akolouthos ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2096 |
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And, in fact, I would argue that -- although I'd probably pick a different painting. I've never seen what the big deal was with that smile. ![]()
Methinks thou wouldst make a good fundamentalist were you an adherent. ![]() With regard to Darwin or Dawkins, I think you might have missed the dichotomy I was -- albeit in a poorly phrased manner -- trying to establish between the different sorts of questions one might ask. When one is seeking to establish and quantify data, a basic, literal reading will usually suffice. When one is seeking to apply a metaphysical or cosmological system, it will not. Darwin is the former, Christianity is the latter, and Dawkins is somewhere in between, depending on what you read. ![]() As for which body of knowledged is more vast, it would depend whether you were speaking of vastness in terms of application or in terms of assertion.
I was referring more to the time period at the beginning when the Church did not have the apparatus of the Roman state behind it; when it was, quite often at odds with that state, and often persecuted. I think your explanation holds well for the post-Nicene Church through the Early-Modern era. I think it is less applicable to the period after, and wholly inapplicable to the period before.
Atheist culture in Australia might be different than it is here in the States. Suffice it to say that there are dinner parties, discussion groups, high-fives, and occasionally even quasi-churches formed. This is largely the result of the prosyletizing of individuals such as Dawkins coupled with the fact that, in America, atheists are still existing in a cultural context which emphasizes religious belief -- albeit less so than it has in the past. To these two factors, add the increasing dogmatization of our political ideologies, and you have your separate subculture. I'd be interested to hear a bit of analysis as to how things are over there.
I think you misread me here, which is likely a result of my legendarily imprecise writing. I was taking your basic assumption as a given under certain circumstances, and then applying it to the context in which we -- or at least I -- live, where this assumption does not apply. Thus, I was not saying that Christianity requires a certain context to become a system of motivation and authoritarian control -- although this is a broader issue which we could flesh out in another thread. I was explaining the circumstances which need to exist -- and do, in the postmodern era -- for atheism to become a system of motivation and, to a lesser extent, authoritarian control. Feel free to re-read what I wrote above in that light, and ask me for clarification if need be. I don't want to respond yet, seeing as we were speaking past each other, for fear we might get a bit further off track. Always a pleasure, Cosntantine XI. ![]() -Akolouthos |
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Akolouthos ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2096 |
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You have touched, here, on the deeper question of what, precisely, faith is. In fact, that would be a wonderful topic for a sister thread to your thread dealing with what God is -- although the Scriptures teach us simply that He Is. I would say that you've dealt with the question fairly well; faith and belief -- two separate, inseparable aspects of our spiritual makeup. Faith is not antithetical to doubt; rather is doubt necessary for faith, which leads to belief. Faith and belief are united in a matrix which includes nature, nurture, and, if you believe in Elfland, external action. ![]() -Akolouthos |
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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Again I have the opposite reaction. I would certainly have thought humanism was much more common among atheists and agnostics than environmentalism would be, at least fundamentalist environmentalism. http://home.earthlink.net/~wodensharrow/earthlinks.html#gaia for intance
I don't see why it particularly raises that question. The question that seems to arise is what do you class a religious behaviour? Fervent devotion to the environment would seem to be a classic case of religiousness.
I was referring to your reference to "The high priests of atheism / environmentalism " as if atheism and ebvironmentalism were the same thing.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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Actually I disagree with that, since it seems to me that the concept of 'atheos' - godlessness - was coined before 'atheism' which is therefore better parsed as 'athe(o)-ist' someone who positively believes in the state of being godless, and not as 'a-theist' implying someone who is not a theist.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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I can see that many of them have created their own religion. I just don't see what is secular about it. It's religious, that's all.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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Bulldog ![]() Caliph ![]() ![]() Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2775 |
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People have always believed in God and always will.
Why believe in God? to a believer the world, universe, nature, our ability to think, basically everything you can think of is proof of God as everything was created. |
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“What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine |
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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I doub t that is justified. Drop the capital G and add an 's' and you'd have a better chance. Make it 'people have always believed in supernatural beings and always will' and you'd be really close.
Possibly, but it doesn't answer the question. To a non-believer that isn't true, so why should he change his mind?
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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Seko ![]() Administrator ![]() ![]() Superfluous Enabler of Sekostan Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8681 |
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The fact that natural sciences do not confirm divinity? That's what I'm trying to find out. How? So what you're saying is that because absurd divine myths have been replaced by natural sciences that means, in your assumption, there is no divinity? Please continue. |
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Copyright © 2004 Seko
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