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Forum LockedWho were the first settlers on the Balkans?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dinakos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 19:51
Haplogroup I is theorized to be the oldest male chromosomal haplogroup in the Balkans, arriving thousands of years prior to the putative arrival of Neolithic people from the Middle East. To what extent this is true, I have no idea. Who knows what gene groups people Balkanites had tens of thousands of years ago.
 
If it's true that from the male side haplogroup I is the oldest in the Balkans, from people who retreated from the Ice Age, what were their boundaries? Were there any in what later became Greece? Those interested are still waiting for ancient DNA analyses, if these are possible.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 22:12


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 22:30
That cute little bugger is the right one, the first settler anywhere!
elenos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 08:34
Originally posted by etnosoul etnosoul wrote:

ILIAD

The Illyrian variants of the Trojan War have been lost. The Homeric saga is a mere translation of an early oral heritage created immediately after the war.


Illyrian variants? Who says they existed? Evidence?

a) The Illyrians didn't write at that time.
b) At the time of the war the Illyrians were still moving from the Danube region down to Illyricum.
c) Recently Linear B tablets of the two Epos were found in Greece and are dated just 80 years after the war.

In any case ther whole issue has been discussed elsewhere... I have nice material from cultures that lived in the area around 6000 BC but i guess i will have to make a separate thread to avoid this mess.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 08:41
Originally posted by chicagogeorge chicagogeorge wrote:

 Aeschylus Suppliants 258

τοῦ γηγενοῦς γάρ εἰμ' ἐγὼ Παλαίχθονος
ἶνις Πελασγός,
τῆσδε γῆς ἀρχηγέτης.
ἐμοῦ δ' ἄνακτος εὐλόγως ἐπώνυμον
γένος Πελασγῶν τήνδε καρποῦται χθόνα.
καὶ πᾶσαν αἶαν, ἧς δί' ἁγνὸς ἔρχεται
Στρυμών, τὸ πρὸς δύνοντος ἡλίου, κρατῶ.
ὁρίζομαι δὲ τήν τε Περραιβῶν χθόνα,
Πίνδου τε τἀπέκεινα, Παιόνων πέλας,
ὄρη τε Δωδωναῖα· συντέμνει δ' ὅρος
ὑγρᾶς θαλάσσης· τῶνδε τἀπὶ τάδε κρατῶ.



translation:


For I am Pelasgus, offspring of Palaechthon,
whom the earth brought forth, and lord of this land;

and after me, their king, is rightly named the race of the Pelasgi,
who harvest the land. Of all the region through which the pure.
Strymon flows, on the side toward the setting sun,
I am the lord. There lies within the limits of my rule
the land of the Perrhaebi, the parts beyond Pindus
close to the Paeonians, and the mountain ridge of Dodona;
the edge of the watery sea borders




That quote is exactly the areas the Pelasgians possesed. Nothing was ever mentioned about Pelasgians inhabiting above Dodona. Besides, through archeology it is evident that a unique culture inhabited Illyricum before the Illyrians. Specifically the Vucedols. The Illyrian migration left signs of a Halstat culture, different from the Vucedols. The Vucedols on their turn do not have similarities with the Sesklo, Argissa-Magoula and Dimini cultures that were around from 7000BC to 4000 BC. The Aegian cultures are another story as well. Closer to the mainland cultures of Pylos, Arcadia and Dispilio. I will make a different thread about these.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EagleAl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 18:32
Originally posted by <strong><em>chicagogeorge chicagogeorge wrote:

I challenge anyone to find an ancient source claiming Pelasgians are connected to Illyrians or Albanians


Because there isn't source of the period, you cannot claim them as greece.
The only source or connection is through the language.

Review the posts.



Edited by EagleAl - 12-Sep-2007 at 18:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 00:06
Originally posted by EagleAl EagleAl wrote:

Originally posted by <strong><em>chicagogeorge chicagogeorge wrote:

I challenge anyone to find an ancient source claiming Pelasgians are connected to Illyrians or Albanians


Because there isn't source of the period, you cannot claim them as greece.
The only source or connection is through the language.

Review the posts.



You haven't read the sources from that period. We have plenty of ancient quotes about Pelasgians. I posted about 10 of them that show Pelasgians in Argos, Thessaly, Arcadia, Epiros..... just look above your last post, AND READ IT, or maybe you don't like the fact that their authors 2500 years ago or more connect the Pelasgians with GreeksWink

All the ancient accounts show that the Pelasgians were some how connected to Greeks. NEVER has anyone ancient author connected the Pelasgians with Illyrians, much less Albanians.


As for the connection through language. You have NO evidence connecting Pelasgian to Illyrian or Albanian. Find me just one real scholar from a real university who can substantiate the claims put forth by propagandists on nationalist websites.


Modern sources on Pelasgians....


A History of Greece:
From the Earliest Times to the Roman Conquest, with Supplementary Chapters ..
by Sir William Smith - 1855 p.12-13




The Gentile Nations: Or, the History and Religion of the
Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians ...
By George Smith p.317



History of Classical Literature
By Robert William Browne p. 40






The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the
Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC)
By Tim J. Cornell p.38





The Religions Before Christ: Being an Introduction to the
History of the First Three Centuries ...
By Edmond de Pressensι p.66



Landmarks of the history of Greece
By James White p.21






Edited by chicagogeorge - 13-Sep-2007 at 00:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote etnosoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 08:52

The mythology of greek it isn't greeks but is Yllirian - Albanian, all the names and words have sense only in Albanian dialectic language! Informed your self take an Albanian dictionary and the Iliad in original language like Homer write it, comparate the worlds by your self!When Homer was born, the Greeks had just recently learned how to use the alphabet from the Phoenicians. Homer lived around 700 BC, in the Archaic period in Greece. No one knows where in Greece he lived exactly, and Homer didn't make up these stories, or even the words, himself. The Greeks lived in a lot of little city-states they do not have a nation and in the Bronze Age each one had in its own city a king.Before the Trojan war there is no indication of helens.Greeks were invited by pelasgians in their cities .

Additional Details

"Zeus" survives as "Zot" in the Albanian language and it's mean "VOICE". The invocation of his name is the common form of oath among the modern Albanians. "Athena" ( the Latin Minerva), the goddess of wisdom as expressed in speech, would evidently owe its derivation to the Albanian "E Thena," which simply means "speech." "Thetis," the goddess of waters and seas, would seem to be but Albanian "Deti" which means "sea."
- The word "Ulysses,"whether in its Latin or Greek form "Odysseus," means "traveler" in the Albanian language, according as the word "udhe,"(udhetues) which stands for "route" and "traveler," is written with "d" or "l," both forms being in use in Albanian.

Even the name GREEK isn’t greek! Romans added their latin suffix -ci making it Graeci. Well, in Pelasgian mythology “Graia” or “Graes” were three old ladies sisters of the monsters called Gorgon and u can grab any mythology book and read their story. In Albanian language "Gra" means exactly that, “Old Ladies”. Singular "Grua/Gruaja" and plural "Gra".

According to mythology Illyrios was the child of Cadmus & Harmonia. And Cadmus was the son of Agenor who was a greek hero! So all old greeks were pelasgians. So the old helen only by languge different from other pellasgians(illyrians, epiriots, macedonians). They rapresent only a partial culture of a big nation. The question is:"what are the new greeks"?

The Y-Chromosome Haplogroup Frequency- The Today Greek CHART Population hg1 hg2 hg3 hg4 hg7 hg8 hg9 hg10 hg12 hg13 hg16 hg21 hg22 hg26 hg28 Greek 11 22 8 0 0 0 28 0 0 0 0 28 0 3 0 POPULATION DNA DISTANCE FROM Greeks: 1 Cypriot 8 -2 Turkish 21- 3 Ashkenazi Jews 23-4 Sephardic Jews 24-5 Romanian 26 -6 Muslim Kurds 26-7 Bulgarian 29-8 Armenian 30 -9 Kurdish Jews 32
- today greek blood and DNA: The genotype and allele frequencies of the 9.1-kb polymorphism in 1,844 unrelated healthy donors from Mediterranean populations living in 26 different geographic locations. The frequency of the 9.1 kb + allele is remarkably uniform and less than 0.50 across the different populations living in North Africa and Greece and ranges from 0.44 (Casablanca) to 0.49 (Athens)!!

more important element in the population of Greece is formed by the Albanians (ca.240 000), called Arvanitae (Arnaouts) by the Greeks, while they name themselves Skyptars'
Karl Baedeker Greece: 'Handbook for Travelers' in 1909
in Homer's Iliad, and Odyssey, whilst the aristocrats such as Achilles and Menelaus have blond hair, the slaves Eurybates and Thersites are brunet. Indeed, the Greek orator Dio of Prusa noted that the Greek ideal of beauty was a Nordic one. The Greeks, he said, admired the blond Achilles, but thought that the barbarian Trojan Hector, was black-haired. [Günther (1956).]
The poet Bacchylides said that the women of Sparta were blonde, and Dicaearchus said much the same thing about the women of Thebes. [Günther (1956).] For the Greeks, the most beautiful woman who ever lived, Helen, was a blonde, as were those mythical men such as Adonis, who were famed for their handsomeness. [Sieglin (1935).]

The Albanian population structure is analyzed based on the allele frequencies of six classic genetic markers: ACP, GC, PGM1, AK, ADA, and 6PGD. The results show a significant heterogeneity between the Albanian population: the frequencies of some alleles, particularly those of the PGM*1W31 variant, and the analysis of the R matrix still show the actual peculiar genetic structure of the Albanians!
Albania = 75% Dinaric, 10% West Mediterranean, 10% Alpine, 5% Noric = 5% periphery Nordish.
Rif: http://www.racialcompact.com/n ordishrace.html

An oft-quoted passage from the 4th c. AD Jewish writer Adamantius Judaeus is used to prove that the original Greeks were tall, pale, blond and light-eyed, not dark like they are today!

Argonautica, the Greek poet Apollonius Rhodius, describes the hero Jason, and all fifty of the Argonauts, as blond-haired. [Sieglin (1935).] When the heroine Electra, in Euripides' play of that name, finds a lock of her brother Orestes' hair, on the grave of their father Agamemnon, she can tell that it is his hair, because of its distinctive blond colour. It would appear that the nobility of ancient Greece was distinguished from the dark masses, by its many blond members. [Ridgeway (1909).

Pelasgians" is the name generally given by ancient writers to the peoples before the Hellenes. According to both Herodotus and Thucyclides, Pelasgians formed the largest element of the early population of Greece and the Aegean, and most of them were gradually assimilated by the Hellenes. Herodotus saw this transformation as following the invasion by Danaos (the Egyptian). The idea that the Pelasgians were the native population, converted to something more "Greek" by the invading Egyptians, also occurs in the plays of Aischylos and Euripides, written around the same time as Herodotus' Histories .

All over the world nationalist system changed textbooks and rewrote history which is of course reflected and then defended by the former students of the given system. This is how most of human history operates!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 09:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote etnosoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 10:40
The semi-annual movements up and down the mountains in the western Balkans have never been a small or isolated matter since the absolute majority of the population have always been semi-nomadic pastoralists. The Spring migration relatively depopulated the lowland areas and their arrival back in the fall swelled these areas with people again. Since the summer was the season of war and invasions and, armies normally travelled along natural passages such as rivers and valleys, there were usually sparce targets for plunder for any ouside raiders in the rural areas of the western Balkans.

The migrations in the Spring, in ancient times, were marked by celebrations and festivals honoring the rebirth of things from the dead. Cerimonial bonfires were lit and there were parades of people decorated in green leaves to honor the god Dionysos who symbolized this season of rebirth and fertility. Later, in Christian times, the great spring movements were preceded by the feast of St. George, the warrior saint and "rider of the green horse", every April 23. In the Fall, at the time of the return from the mountains, there were similar festivals centered on the ancient deity of Demeter, goddess of the dead and later, as the feast of St. Demeterus every October 8.

Our deepest roots are likely centered in the Dinaric range, in the area of today's northern Albania and the southern half of the former Yugoslavia. This is the area where the Greeks first recorded the existence of a people whom they called the Illyrians.
Legends say Illyrios, the son of Cadus and Harmonia was the person from whom all Illyrians were descended. Cadus was told by the oracle to go northwards from Boeotia and live with a people known as the Encheleians and become their king. After their son Illyrios was born a snake came and wound itself around the baby's body and imparted mystical powers to him. Later, his mother and father were both turned into serpents and cast out to live in the fields.
The Greek word: "Ilir" meaning "to turn" or "to wind", is thought to be the origin of the name Illyrios, and thus also, Illyrian. In historical times Encheleians were one of the southernmost Illyrian tribes, one of the first encountered by the Greeks. Their lands were centered near Lake Ohrid (on today's border of Albania and Macedonia), after a southward migration in earlier times. The tribal name "Encheleae" stems from the Greek word for "eel" (which was actually more akin to "serpent" in those times), and means "eel-people". The Encheleae are known to have worshiped snakes and decorated their shields with images of serpents.


The content of this legend strongly suggests to some scholars that the Greeks coined the term "Illyrian" based only on their early knowledge of the Encheleae tribe. The term was likely applied it to all similar tribes in the Dinarics they encountered later. It is doubtful the Illyrians ever used this term to actually identify themselves, prior to late Roman times. This is because the Illyrians were not a unified civilization or culture and rarely more than a loose political entity as a people. Rather, they were autonomous tribes and sometimes tribal confederations. Even though they were known to have shared many common cultural traits, which identified them to outsiders as Illyrians, it appears the cultural differences from tribe to tribe were extreme enough for them see themselves as each being distinct tribal-nations or kingdoms. It also appears inter-tribal warfare was more common than inter-tribal confederations.

There were over seventy major "Illyrian" tribes and several minor ones. Surviving records indicate how some of these tribes were organized. Each tribe contained usually three or four "brotherhoods" of about twelve or thirteen clans each. Each clan numbered about 150-200 warriors and their associated families. The leaders of each brotherhood also formed the membership a tribal council. The brotherhoods seemed to control certain geographic areas and the authority to re-apportion the land and other properties within it to their own clans. One of these brotherhoods is said to have redistributed property on a regular basis, every eighth year. However, it is believed there were probably wide variations in tribal organization and sizes thoughout the Illyrian lands.


ILLYRIANS

Between 8000-6000 B.C. was the Mesolithic (Middle Stone Age) in the Balkans. People survived by hunting, fishing and food gathering. From 6000 and 4000 B.C., during the Neolithic ("New Stone Age") agriculture spread northwards to the banks of the Danube river. This Mediterranean agricultural people raised cereals duch as wheat, beans and barley, and bred livestock, cattle, sheep, pigs and goats. Tools and weapons were still made of stone and the tribes were almost totally matriarchial in social structure and the worship was of female mother-earth goddesses, and the mystery of birth growth and fertility.

About 4000- 3500 B.C. new people began to make intrusions into the Balkans from somewhere north of the Black Sea, in central Asia. They were fast moving Indo-European nomads and they brought radical changes such as . new technology, in the form of bronze metal working for tools and weapons, the wheel and the domesticated horse for transporation. Their social structure was patriarchal and their religion focused on male-warrior sky gods and warrior cults of the wolf and horse. They assimulated or were assimulated by the existing settled Mediterranean agricultural propulations of the Balkans (Pelasgians?) and began to emerge as separate and identifiable cultural groups for the first time in this new era called the Bronze Age.
Archealogists have identifed the Illyrians of the Dinaric mountains as one of the original Bronze Age cultures to emerge in the Balkans, along with their neighbors the Thracians, Moesians and Dacians. Scholars feel the cultural development of the Illyrians was extremely slow, fragmented and uneven, because of their isolation, which apparently resulted in the great diversity and independence of the tribes who finally emerged from the Bronze-age.

About a thousand years after the formation of these original Balkan cultures another new people, the ancestors of the Greeks, arrived in the Balkans. These Greek-speakers moved in from the east and pushed southwards, through Thrace and Moesia, bypassing the Dinarics. These Greek-speakers mixed with the rural agricultural peoples (Pelasgians?) in the north and interior areas and then with some Aegen coastal peoples in the more southern areas. In the north and interior agricultural regions the Greek-‘Pelasgian' combination is thought to have produced later the "Dorian" and other northern Greek cultural groups. In the south, the Greek-Aegean Coastal mixture produced a powerful maritime trading civilization called the Mycean (centered in the Peloponnese of southern Greece). The Aegean peoples, found by the Greeks, in the south are thought to have been heavily influenced by earlier Persian/Egyptian and Phonecian civilizations and their social organizations (which also probably produced the nearby Mionian civilization on the island of Crete, which the Myceans soon absorbed).

About 1200 B.C. the Myceans along with many other advanced and dominate Mediterranean civilizations were devastated by an apparent general and concurrent uprising by "rural peoples" who had gained enough new iron technology and military techniques to be able to throw off the domination of more advanced city-state civilizations. Shortly after this time, there were large general population movements and disruptions throughout Europe which brought another wave of new cultures, this time from the north, into the area of the Balkans which may have, in turn, pushing the Hellenes or "northern Greeks" southwards. Many of the former Myceans fled into Attica to the protection of Athens, and later to Anitolia (modern Turkey) and Syria as well as the islands of the eastern Aegean.

legends of some of the Illyrian tribes being descended in some way from the Trojans, in both Greek and Illyrian mythology. The Dardanian tribe of the Kosovo plain, just northeast of Albania and the northern Illyrian Veniti (later, the founders of Venice, in Italy) both, for example, had this tradition of Trojan ancestory. This is strange, considering that archealogical evidence shows an opposite movement of peoples, from the Balkans eastward into Anitolia (today's Turkey and Armenia), not too long before the sack of Troy. In fact, the tribes of the Phrygians and Armenians, who displaced the Hittites from that area, are now thought to have originally been either Thracians, Moesians or Illyrians, or a combination of some or all of these peoples.

The Illyrians have been a great mystery to most scholars for centuries, probably because only a few detailed scientific facts were known about them until recently and, the existing historical records concerning them were vague or incomplete. This lack of knowledge put them at the heart of many fantastic theories and speculations, many of which have been recently discarded because of new archealogical evidence combined with better and more objective historical analysis. However, even some of the new and more objective proposals about them seem no less interesting or fantastic. For example, some Balkan and Italian archealogists have now both proposed that "an Illyrian migration" into Apulia, on the ‘heel' of Italy, between 1300-1200 B.C. resulted in the Messapic culture there, and that later these same people also migrated to Sicily. They have gone as far as to classify the ‘native' Sicans and Sicels, who lent their name to the island, as being of actual "Illyrian" origin. Some Russian scholars also, for example, have proposed that an Illyian tribe called the Neuri, who migrated northwards in the 6th century B.C. past the Gaete River, as being the ancestors of a certain people, later to be called the Slavs, who originated in that same area. Of course, the critical question is how precisely can they define what is actully "Illyrian" in light of all the diversity that has been found of the people grouped under that label?

The Greeks claimed the Illyrians occupied all the lands beyond Epirus and Thrace, up to the Danube-Drava river line. This was a huge area and, although the majority of it was mountainous and pastoral, it also contained significant agricultural and coastal areas as well on its northern and western peremiters, respectively. In actual fact, it appears there were many Illyrian sub-cultures within this defined area, with many being much less Illyrian than more.

In early times the northern areas seem to have been Italo-Illyrian; Celto-Illyrian; and Daco-Illyian. To the east, Thraco-Illyian. To the south, Epriot-Illyrian or, perhaps even Pelasgian-Illyrian. In the late Bronze-age there may have been a pressure from the north or an expansion out of the mountains which pushed some Illyrians further east into Thrace or, even into Anitolia; also southwards for a ways into both northern Eprius and Thessaly and, westwards across the Adritiac to Italy.

About 500 years later, as Greece emerged from the dark ages, the Greek influence began to spread northwards along the Adriatic coast and the eastern mainland through Thessaly and into Epirus. Around this same time the Macedoneans, orignally a ‘Doric' tribe also apparently emerged as a separate identifiable people in the gap between the Pindus and Dinaric ranges (in central Albania) and moved eastwards to displace some existing Thracian and Illyrian tribes living along the Thermaic Gulf. The Macedoneans soon developed into a stong poltical power who often faced-off against their Illyrian neighbors.

The first Greek settlement in Illyrian lands took place when the Corinthins established a trading post on the island of Corfu in 733 B.C. off the coast of today's southern Albania. A second Corinthian trading post was established a hundred years later, about 630 B.C. farther north and on the coast of the mainland, in an area called Dyrrhachium. It was known first as Epidamnus and is today's modern Albanian port city of Durres. In 588 B.C. a third post, called Glyaceia, was established on the Illyrian-Epriot frontier to the south, it was later renamed Apollonia, in honor of the Greek god Apollo. During the following centuries, these outposts would grow into flourishing cities facilitating trade between Greece and Italy by sea and, also overland with the Balkans and Danube basin. Very little is recorded about the relationships between the Greeks and Illyians and Epriots at these trading posts during their early years however, it does appear that the Greek post in Epidamnus took on a distinct "Illyrian character" over time, rather than the other way around.

The first detailed record of Greek contact with Illyrians was in 421 B.C., as recorded by Thucydides in his History of the Peloponnesian War. He tells of a Spartan army who encountered a group of Illyrian mercenaries and were so unnerved by their first sight of these people, "by their warlike nature" and loud battle cries, that they quickly retreated. Thucydides then goes on to relate the often quoted speech given by Spartan commander to help calm his troops and rebuild their courage.

In 393 B.C. the Illyrians invaded and plundered Macedonia, then ruled by Amyntas III, grandfather of Alexander the Great. They raided Macedonia again in 384 B.C. and in the following year also attacked the Molossian tribes in Epirus. This was the start of an era of continuious warfare in the area involving the Illyrians against various foes, especially the Macedonians.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote etnosoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 10:55
The Pelasgians, the extended people of the ancient world, had ruled in ante-historical times not only over Hellada, but over the entire Hem peninsula. We shall summarize here the various data regarding this which we find with the Greek authors.

Thessaly, the most fertile and beautiful territory of ancient Greece, situated between Olympus, Ossa, Pelion and Pindus mountains, had once bore the name Pelasgicon Argos (Homer, Iliad, II. v. 681; Strabo, Geogr. VIII. 6. 5), Pelasgicon pedion (Strabo, Geogr. Ix. 5. 22), meaning the plain of the Pelasgians, and Pelasgia (Hecateus, Fragm. 334, in Fragm Hist. graec. I. Ed. Didot, p. 25; Ibid, vol. IV. P. 501; Eustathius, Comm. In Dionysium v. 427).

The Epirus, Pyrrhus’ country, a region with deep valleys, wild and partly fertile, had once been inhabited by the Pelasgians (Strabo, lib. V. 2. 4). Here was Dodona, religious metropolis of the Pelasgians in the Homeric epoch (Strabo, lib. VII. 7. 10), where the supreme divinity who governed the sky and the earth was venerated under the national name of “Jove of the Pelasgians”, Zeus Pelasgikos (Homer, Iliad, XVI. 233).

The entire Peloponessus, a country covered in vast woodlands, crisscrossed by numerous rivers and streams, with very favorable conditions for a pastoral life, had been called in antiquity Pelasgia, as the historians Acusilaus (fragm 11, Frag. Hist. graec. I. p. 101), and Ephorus (fragm. 54, ibid. p. 248; Pliny, lib. IV. 5. 1) tell us.

Arcadia, a region surrounded by mountains and inhabited by a pastoral people with simple and patriarchal mores, had once the name “Pelasgia” (Steph. Byz. ‘Arkadia; Herodotus, lib.I. 146).

Argos, the kingdom of Agamemnon, famous for its cities Mycenae and Tirynth, where have been discovered in our time priceless treasures of a buried Pelasgian civilization, had also been a country of the Pelasgians. Argos is given the name Pelasgia by Eschyl (Prom. v. 860), Euripides (Orestes, v. 675, 849, 1611; Iphig. in Aulida, v. 1494; Erakles mainomenos, v. 462), Eustathius (Comm. In Dionysium, 347), and Strabo (lib. VIII. 6. 9).

Beotia also, a country rich in sheep flocks and herds of cattle and horses, with the famous Parnassus and Helicon mountains, with their fine valleys dedicated to the divinities, had been inhabited in ancient times by Pelasgians (Strabo, lib. IX. 2. 25; Ibid. IX. 2. 3).

The same happened with Attica, a simple agricultural province, which appears at the beginning of its history as a region inhabited by Pelasgians (Herodotus, lib. I. c. 57; Ibid. IX. 2. 3).

Athens, the center of intellectual and political life of ancient Greece, had been founded by Pelasgians. During the time of the rule of the Pelasgians over Greece, writes Herodotus, the Athenians had been Pelasgian (lib. VIII. 24). The strong wall which once surrounded the acropolis of Athens had been built by Pelasgians, Pelasgikon teichos (Herodotus, lib.V.64; Fragm Hist. grace. II. 111. 17; IV. 457. 3). Even in the times of the Roman Empire a part of the city of Athens was called Palasgicon (Strabo, lib. IX. 2. 3; Ibid. V. 2. 3; V. 2. 8).

The entire Macedonia, a country with great political ideals and ruler of the world in the times of Alexander the Great, had had in ancient times a Pelasgian population (Justinus, lib. VII. 1. 1).

Macedo, the national patriarch of Macedonia, appears in the ancient genealogy of the peoples from the Hem peninsula, as a descendant of Pelasg (Apollodorus, Bibl. lib. III. 8. 1). Herodotus also writes that the Pelasgians who dwelt in the region of Pindus were called Macedoni (lib.I. 56).

The ancient populations of Illyria were of the same nationality as the Macedonians (Appianus, Bell. Mithr. 55). The various tribes of this region, Liburnii, Dalmatii, Iapozii, Dindarii, Brygii, Byllionii, Taulantii, Dasaretii, Ardieii, Dardanii, etc, had Pelasgian names, mores and traditions.

The so-called “barbara” Illyria was called Illyris Romana even since the time of Augustus.

Finally, the entire territory of Thrace, which in a remote antiquity comprised also the populations from the north of the Lower Danube, had also been a Pelasgian country.

The Trojans and Mysians, Herodotus tells us, had undertaken in prehistoric times a great expedition into Europe, and had subjected the entire Thrace to the Ionic Sea (lib. VII. 20). This proves that the Thracians were at one time of the same ethnic nationality as the Pelasgians from Asia Minor [1].



[1. Some traces of the ancient Pelasgians were mentioned in later times in Athos peninsula (Herodotus, I. 57; Strabo, VII. 35; Thucydides, IV. 109). Scymnus of Chios (Orb. Descr. V. 585) also speaks about the Pelasgiotii emigrated from Thrace to the islands Scyros and Schiathos. Strabo (XIII. 1. 31) states on another hand that the Thracians and Trojans had many names in common. The Mysiens (Mysoi) who had emigrated from Thrace to Asia Minor had the same origin and language with the Moesi or Mysii from between the Danube and the Hem (Strabo, XII. 3. 3; VII. 3. 2; XIII. 1. 8)].



Finally, the poet Eschyl presents the following picture of the expansion of Pelasgian domination in the south-eastern parts of Europe.

King Pelasg of Argos says the following to Danaos: “I am Pelasg …..king of this country. The nation of the Pelasgians, so rightly called after me, their king, occupies this country. I rule over the entire earth, from which the river Algos (Altos?) flows down, and Strymon, which flows from where the sun sets. Inside the borders of my empire there is also the country of the Perrhebi (north of Thessaly) and the lands from beyond Pindus, near the Paeoni and the mountains of Dodona (Epirus). It is true that the sea breaks off the borders of my country, but my rule also extends beyond the sea, and the name of that country is Apia (Suppl. v. 250).

The important river about which Pelasg speaks here, which flew from the end of the world, where the sun sets, which turned to ice during winter (Eschyl, Persaeus, v. 497) and which was in the region from where the cold winds blew (Eschyl, Agamemnon, v. 192), is in no way Strymon of Thrace, but the famous Istru of Europe (Pindar, Olymp. III.18).

The great rivers, especially the holy Istru (to which Alexander the Great also brings sacrifices) served in the official rhetoric of the ancient times, to describe the size, power and durability of an empire. The ancient kings, as Dinonus tells us (fragm. 16 in Fragm Hist. gr. II. 92), ordered to have water brought from Istru or Nile, which they preserved in their treasury, in order to prove the size of their empires, and their power over all. This is what Pelasg wants to express, and this is the true meaning of the tradition transmitted by Eschyl.



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Why must you copy and paste nonsense.



Originally posted by etnosoul etnosoul wrote:


The mythology of greek it isn't greeks but is Yllirian - Albanian, all the names and words have sense only in Albanian dialectic language! Informed your self take an Albanian dictionary and the Iliad in original language like Homer write it, comparate the worlds by your self!When Homer was born, the Greeks had just recently learned how to use the alphabet from the Phoenicians. Homer lived around 700 BC, in the Archaic period in Greece. No one knows where in Greece he lived exactly, and Homer didn't make up these stories, or even the words, himself. The Greeks lived in a lot of little city-states they do not have a nation and in the Bronze Age each one had in its own city a king.Before the Trojan war there is no indication of helens.Greeks were invited by pelasgians in their cities .


Complete and utter bullsh*t. I will not even respond to this.



Actually, if you can translate this portion of the Illiad in your language than I will stop Wink



If you can read Greek notice the first word, third line from the bottom, and the second to last word in the passage, it's Dios=Zeus, NOT ZOT.Wink

Originally posted by etnosoul etnosoul wrote:


Additional Details

"Zeus" survives as "Zot" in the Albanian language and it's mean "VOICE". The invocation of his name is the common form of oath among the modern Albanians.


How ignorant. Zeus, was known as Dias, and even in Mycenaean Linear B tablets which date back to 1400 BC, he was known as DI-U-JA (month-name DIWIOIOS). A far cry from Zot or what ever the hell you call it.LOL


Originally posted by etnosoul etnosoul wrote:


"Athena" ( the Latin Minerva), the goddess of wisdom as expressed in speech, would evidently owe its derivation to the Albanian "E Thena," which simply means "speech." "Thetis," the goddess of waters and seas, would seem to be but Albanian "Deti" which means "sea."


More b.s. Athena......Linear B tablets 1400 bc. was known to the Greeks as
A-TA-NA PO-TI-NI-JA
(Potnia). What is thena deti crap?


Originally posted by etnosoul etnosoul wrote:


- The word "Ulysses,"whether in its Latin or Greek form "Odysseus," means "traveler" in the Albanian language, according as the word "udhe,"(udhetues) which stands for "route" and "traveler," is written with "d" or "l," both forms being in use in Albanian.



You don't read do you? Previous page......I proved that Odysseus from Greek οδυσσομαι (odyssomai) "to hate". In Greek legend Odysseus was one of the Greek heroes who fought in the Trojan War. In the 'Odyssey' Homer relates Odysseus's misadventures on his way back to his kingdom and his wife Penelope. Udhe has no connection to this name.....

Originally posted by etnosoul etnosoul wrote:


Even the name GREEK isn’t greek! Romans added their latin suffix -ci making it Graeci. Well, in Pelasgian mythology “Graia” or “Graes” were three old ladies sisters of the monsters called Gorgon and u can grab any mythology book and read their story. In Albanian language "Gra" means exactly that, “Old Ladies”. Singular "Grua/Gruaja" and plural "Gra".


Why you are void of any knowledge of ancient history. You have never read Aristotle who tells us exactly where the name Graeci come from.Wink




Originally posted by etnosoul etnosoul wrote:


According to mythology Illyrios was the child of Cadmus & Harmonia. And Cadmus was the son of Agenor who was a greek hero!

If you are even remotely interested in the myth of Cadmus and Harmonia read here.

http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/thebes.html

[QUOTE=etnosoul]
 So all old greeks were pelasgians. So the old helen only by languge different from other pellasgians(illyrians, epiriots, macedonians). They rapresent only a partial culture of a big nation. The question is:"what are the new greeks"?


ClapEpirotes and MacedoniansTongue

Livy wrote, ” The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time …”
(Livy, History of Rome, b. XXXI par. XXIX).


The Acarnanians, and the Ætolians, like many other nations, are at present worn out, and exhausted by continual wars. The Ætolians however, in conjunction with the Acarnanians, during a long period withstood the Macedonians and the other Greeks.

Strabo, Geographia, Book 10, Chapter 2, 23.

"The Molotti also were Epirotæ, and were subjects of Pyrrhus Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, and of his descendants, who were Thessalians. The rest were governed by native princes. Some tribes were continually endeavouring to obtain the mastery over the others, but all were finally subdued by the Macedonians, except a few situated above the Ionian Gulf."

Strabo, 7.7.1


"Pyrrhus, the king of Epirus
, had a particularly high opinion of his powers because he was deemed by foreign nations a match for the Romans; and he believed that it would be opportune to assist the fugitives who had taken refuge with him, especially as they were Greeks, and at the same time so forestall the Romans with some plausible excuse before he should suffer injury at their hands. For so careful was he about his good reputation that though he had long had his eye on Sicily and had been considering how he could overthrow the power of the Romans, he shrank from taking the initiative in hostilities against them, when no wrong had been done him."


Cassius Dio, Book 9.4


"Zeus Archon, Dodonean, Pelasgian, who dwells afar, ruling on rough wintered Dodona, surrounded by the Selloi, the interpreters of your divine will, whose feet are unwashed and sleep on the ground".

Homer, Iliad 16:127 (Achilles prayer)

XI. "War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles...

XIII. "...Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus asked him "what kind of a place he had found Rome to be," Cineas replied, that "he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece."

Eutropius (Abridgment of Roman History) Historiae Romanae Breviarium



"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"

"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."

Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer



“Peleus is the forefather of the kings of Epiros”

Pausanias, II (Corinth).

Peleus being the son of King Aeacus (the dynasty's name) and the father of Achilles.

“but we know of no Greek before Pyrros who fought against Rome.”

Pausanias, 1.11

“So Pyrros was the first to cross over against Rome from mainland Greece, and even so he went over only because he was called in by Tarentum”

Pausanias, 1.12



"Alexander, the Epirote, when waging war against the Illyrians, first placed a force in ambush, and then dressed up some of his own men in Illyrian garb, ordering them to lay waste his own, that is to say, Epirote territory. When the Illyrians saw that this was being done, they themselves began to pillage right and left — the more confidently since they thought that those who led the way were scouts. But when they had been designedly brought by the latter into a disadvantageous position, they were routed and killed."

Frontinus, Strategemata, On Ambushes, 10

"When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by Bardylis, the Illyrian, who commanded a considerably larger army, he dispatched the non-combatant portion of his subjects to the neighbouring district of Aetolia, and spread the report that he was yielding up his towns and possessions to the Aetolians. He himself, with those who could bear arms, placed ambuscades here and there on the mountains and in other inaccessible places. The Illyrians, fearful lest the possessions of the Molossians should be seized by the Aetolians, began to race along in disorder, in their eagerness for plunder. As soon as they became scattered, Harrybas, emerging from his concealment and taking them unawares, routed them and put them to flight."

Frontinus, Strategemata, 13

Seems clear that the Epirotes were NOT Illyrians...







I could continue to quote ancient sources, but I have a feeling that you wont even bother to read them. Historical truth is not on your side my friend.


I wont even bother responding to your genetic DNA claims....


Edited by chicagogeorge - 13-Sep-2007 at 12:12
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From a historical point of view, we have here the same ethnic name under which figure in Roman times the Raetii or Rhaetii of Switzerland, whose descendants are today the Romancii from the district Graubunden in Tyrol, and from northern Lombardy (Rhetii were considered even by the Romans as an Illyrian people – Appianus, De reb. Illyr. c. 29).

The ancient Etruscans belonged to the same family as the Retii from the Alps, as they, as Dionysius of Halik. tells us, had been called in the first times of Italic history, Rasennae [1].



[1. Two manuscripts of Dionysius Periegetus (Ed. Didot, v. 285) prove that the terms Rasciani (Risciani) and Arimani were homogenous and had the same meaning for the ancients: instead of aremaneon Germanon appears the version eristheneon Germanon. Here the epithet eristhenees, with the meaning of valde robusti, indicates by its form that the Germans were also a Riscian people].



From the etymological point of view, the geographical term Rascia is only a simple dialectal form of Ramscia, as various localities from the territory of ancient Dacia bear even today the name Rasca, a simple abbreviation of Ramsca (Dionysius Halik. Lib. I. 30).

We find on a Roman inscription from Iglita the patronymic names of Rascanius and Rascania (C. I. L. vol. III. nr. 6203), which indicate a certain Rascanus as originator of this family.

A king of Thrace from the time of Augustus was called Rhescuporis and Rascuporis, a name which corresponds from the point of view of its etymology and meaning to the Latin form Rasci-puer, meaning the son of Rascu. A brother of this Rascuporis was even called Rascus (Appianus, De bell. civ. Lib. IV. 87).



In regard to the historical origin of this name, a particular importance is presented by the fact that in the Balkan peninsula the term Risciani had always been synonymous with the term Vlasi (Kaznacic, Bosnia, 1862, p. 20-21). In a document of the tsar Dusan from 1348, Chrisciani is a Romanian village near Prizren (Hasdeu, Arch. Ist. III. 94, 95), the ancient site of his residence.

A significant part of the county Posega of Croatia, the so-called “little Valachia”, still had in the Middle Ages the particular name of Rascia (Pesty, Az eltunt varm. II. 206-207).

Another Rascia was near the south-western frontiers of today Serbia, and was characterized especially for its mountain group called even today Rasca, for the river, valley and little town called Rasca, or Rasa by Constantin Porphyrogenetus.

This beautiful region of ancient Serbia was called in the Middle Ages Stara-Vlaska. In this Rascia, or “Ancient Vlaska”, existed, as the Serb poems tell us, one of the most monumental churches, called Iania (Talvi, Volkslieder der Serben, II, 1826, p. 192). Today Ancient-Valachia forms an administrative district of Turkey, but it has also preserved its traditional name of Rascia. The capital of this district is Novibasar or Ienipasar.

Various localities of upper Mesia appear with Arimic names even in the Roman epoch.



In Mediterranean Dacia was Romesiana (Tab. Peut.), called in the Itinerary of Antoninus, Remesiana, by Procopius, Rumisiana. In the times of Justinian, the city Remesiana (situated where is today Ak-Palanca) had formed the capital of an important military district “Regio Remesiensis”, having 29 castles and defensive towers.

Near Serdica (today Sofia), the capital of Mediterranean Dacia, Procopius mentions the castle Romania. On the valley of Timoc still existed in Roman times the castle Romulianum (Romyliana), where had been born and buried the emperor Galerius; and near the Danube, facing Palanca-noua, still exist the ruins of an ancient castle, called during the Middle Ages Ram (Jirecek, Die Heeresstrasse v. Belgrad nach Constantinopel, p. 17), today Rama.

Finally, close to ancient Sirmius (Mitroviti), where had been born the emperors Aurelianus, Probus and Gratianus, exists even today a little town called Ruma.



We summarize: The entire territory of upper Mesia presents during the course of the Middle Ages also, the remainders of an ancient Pelasgian population, robust, martial, with simple customs, with superstitions and ante-Christian religious beliefs, crossing the mountains and valleys with their flocks and herds exactly as they had done in archaic times, and living according to certain traditional laws, which were neither Roman, nor Greek, or Slav.

These were the so-called Rasci or Vlachi, diminished by the Romanian wars and later conquered and stifled by the waves of Slav invasions.



RAMA – During the Middle Ages, Bosnia, and a large part of Hertzegovina, had the name Rama (Densusianu, Documente, Vol. II. 5. 1563, p. 522). This geographical term indicates that this territory of “Roman”, or “barbarian” Illyria had been inhabited in remote times by an Arimic population.

Hecateus, who had lived 70-80 years before Herodotus, mentions in the parts of Illyria a city with the name Orgomenae (fragm. 152).

A folk tradition from Bosnia tells us also about a famous city from those parts, called Ermenia (Sitzungsber. d. Wien. Akad. Phil.-hist. CI. XCIX, Bd. p. 884), which could have had 18,000 houses, and had been situated south of Sarajevo, on the banks of Drina, where is today Gorazda.

Near the north-western frontiers of Bosnia was in Roman times an ancient locality called in official geography Romula (Tab. Peut.).



Eastwards from Sarajevo rises the legendary mountain of Bosnia called Romania Planina, where, as the ancient Serb songs tell us, feasted once the Romanian hero Old Novac, with his son Gruita, and his brother Radivoiu (Gerhard’s Gesange der Serben, 1877, p. 160).

Another mountain of Bosnia, near Costainita, is called de Romanobreg, and in the southern parts of Montenegro, close to Dulcigno, rises the imposing shape of the mountain Rumia, which in the geography of Vibius Sequester (500 to 700ad) appears under the name Rhamnusium (Riese, Geogr. Lat. min. p. 157). Finally, in the upper parts of Hertegovina, the most beautiful and fertile valley is called even today Rama.



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XXXIII. 27. The ancient popular form of the name “Pelasgi”.



I.

The Pelasgii, writes Dionysius of Halikarnassus, had received their name from Pelasg, the son of Jove and Niobe (lib. I. 11, 17).

We find the same tradition with the poet Eschyl, who presents Pelasg speaking the following words: “I am Pelasg, the son of Palaechton, born from Terra (Gaea), the ruler of this country, and from my name, its king, has been called the nation of the Pelasgii, which masters this earth” (Supplices, v.250-251).

Here Pelasg is, as we see, the national name of an illustrious king, who had put the foundation of the first powerful state, with a moral purpose, in Europe.

Before trying though to find out about the ancient form of the name Pelasgi (ans), we must know in which part of the ancient world had been the country of this great civilizing king of the Pelasgian people.

In ancient Greek literature, the country or nationality of the more famous persons of the mythical times was often indicated in a simple genealogical form. The countries, lands, mountains, rivers, caves, were personified, and it was said, for example, that the ancestor of a tribe, a king, or a hero, had been the son of Thrace, of Libya, of Atlas mountain, or of the river Oceanos, Scamandros, Alpheos, etc.

Such a geographical genealogy had also Pelasg, the first traditional king of the Pelasgian people.



According to one of these traditions, Pelasg had been a great grandson of Oceanos potamos (istru), and its great affluent Tetys (Tisa), both these rivers personifying the regions from the Carpathians and the lower Danube.



We find another allegorical genealogy with the poet Asius of Samos, who had lived 700 years before the Christian era. According to this tradition, Pelasg, “the one like the gods”, had been born “in the black country”, on the mountains with the high ridges” (Pausanias, frag. lib. VIII. 1). Here, the mother of Pelasg is the country, or the “black” land, a very ancient name in itself.

The blessed region situated in the northern parts of the river Oceanos, where the earth blossomed and bore fruit three times a year, is called by Hesiodus gaia melaina (Theog. v. 69; Dies et Opera, v. 171)[1].



[1. The name gaia melaina does not derive from the physical type, or the color of the inhabitants, but from the geological quality of the particular zone of black, rich and extraordinarily productive soil (Neumann, Die Hellenen im Skythenlande, p. 14, 20). We have to admit though that the geological and ethnographic meaning of this expression had been misinterpreted since the most remote antiquity, even by Homer].



For some parts of ancient Dacia, the same name has been preserved in a traditional form, even during the course of the Middle Ages.

At the time when king Stefan, called “the Saint”, ruled over Hungary (997-1038), Transilvania appears under the name Ungria Nigra (Ademar Chabaniensis, Historiar. III. 33; Hunfalvy, Ethnographie von Ungarn, p. 217, 417).

The epithet Nigra has a great significance for history here, and “Ungria”, if not somehow a simple corrupt form of “Nigra”, appears only as a political name given by the author, because Transilvania had never been called with the particular geographical name of “Ungria”.



From the country, the epithet of “negri” (TN – blacks) passes on to its people, the Romanians.

In the chronicle of Fazel-ullach-Rashid from around 1303, the Romanians from the southern parts of the Carpathians are called Kara-Ulaghi, meaning the “Black Valachii” (D’Ohsson, Histoire des Mongols. La Haye, 1834, t.II, 627-628; Hasdeu, Ist. Critica, p. 68).

The Turks call the Romanian Country (Tera Romanesca) Kara-Iflak, and Moldova Kara-Bogdan (Cantemir, Cronicul vechimii Romano-Moldo-Vlahilor, ed. 1901, p. 307; Hasdeu, Ist. Crit. p. 107).

In the epic poems of the southern Slavs, the Romanian Country is zemlja karablaska (Miladinovitzi, 203; Hasdeu, Ist. Crit. 107, 110).

In the documents of the Constantinopolitan Patriarchate between the years 1390-1400, Moldova figures as Mauroblachia (II. nr. 404, 435, 444, 454, 461, 465, etc; Codinus, De officiis magnae eccl. Paris, 1625, p. 130), and as Melana Pogdania with Chacocondylas (lib. IX. p. 514).



Finally, we find with Eschyl a third tradition about the country of Pelasg.

In his poem Supplices (v. 250), Eschyl tells us that Pelasg had been the son of Palaechton (the ancient earthling, born on the earth), born of Gaia or Terra.

In ancient Greek literature, the epithet “Palaechton” was hold only by the god Mars (Eschyl, Sept. c. Th. v. 105), also called Geticus by the Latin poets (Statius, Silv. I. 2. 53), and protector of the Getic plains (Virgil, Aen. X. 542).



We are presented here with the question, why was the god Mars, the protector of the Getic plains called “the ancient born on the earth”, or in other words, why it was said that Mars was originally from the ancient country (TN - Tera cea vechia)?

Under the name “Terra antiqua” appears in the geography of the Pelasgian times a certain region, famous for its martial people and for its richness (Homer, Hymn. XXX. 2).

Virgil also speaks about this “Ancient Terra”, and tells us at the same time that the Greeks named it also Hesperia, or “the country from the sundown” (Aen. I. v. 530; III. v. 163 seqq) [2].



[2. Diodorus Siculus writes (IV. 27) about the origin of the name Hesperia, that Atlas – the ancient king of the Hyperboreans (Apollod. II. 5. 11) – had divided the parental inheritance with his brother Hesperus, and that the part over which ruled the latter had been called Hesperia.

It results therefore that, according to the traditions of more ancient times, Hesperia had been situated in close neighborhood with the kingdom of Atlas from the Atlas mountains (of Olt), in the northern parts of Istru. From a geographical point of view, the name Hesperia refers in any case to the lands situated beyond the Carpathians mountains, which formed the separation line between the eastern and the western regions of ancient Dacia (Rufus Avienus, Descr. Orb. v. 738-739).



In Romanian heroic songs, which are of a very remote age, we still find today some mentions about the country from the sundown (TN – tera de la scapatat), identical with Ardel.

In the epic cycle about Old Novac it is said that his porch was at the sundown (Catana, Balade pop. 108). In another versions though, his sons are called “brave men from Ardel” (Sezatoarea, I. 44). Iovan Iorgovan is called in some versions “an emperor’s son, from the sundown”. The same is said about the maiden from the mountains of Cerna, that she was “an emperor’s daughter, from the sundown” (Catana, ibid. 56)].



The name ”Terra antiqua” is the antithesis of the new countries; or in other words, “Tera vechia” is the mother country of the Pelasgian pastoral tribes, which, migrating in the course of a long series of centuries, towards south and west, still remembered an ancient country, or the places from where their parents had come, as the same meaning still has in our times the name “the old village” as opposed to “the new village”.

From this “Tera vechia” therefore, once unbeaten in wars and blessed with the richness of its soil (potens armis atque ubere glebae), had been originally Mars, called Palaechton, the father of king Pelasg.



Thus, we have here the following genealogies regarding the country of Pelasg, the first monarch who had ruled over the great people of the Pelasgii:






It results therefore that, according to Greek traditions, Pelasg, the ancient representative of the Pelasgian people, was originally from the northern parts of Istru.

II.



We now know which was “Tera vechia” (Terra antiqua) of the Pelasgian people, situated on the northern parts of Istru.

We have to address now the question of the form of the name Pelasgoi, as it appears in the ancient Greek literature. But before all else, we must state here the following:

In the ancient topical nomenclature we do not find any trace of the form of the name Pelasgoi as presented by the Greek authors, either on the territory of Hellada, of Asia Minor, or in the Italic peninsula, where as we know, so many Pelasgian tribes had once settled.



This is evident proof that the name Pelasgoi, as used by Homer, does not correspond to a true popular form; that we have here only a term, corrupted by the mode of pronunciation and writing of the Greek authors.

The Greek geographer Strabo, originally from Asia Minor, wishing to indicate an etymology of the name Pelasgoi - but in an entirely frivolous way - tells us that in older times the inhabitants of Attica called these people Pelasgoi (ciconiae, meaning storks), because they migrated from one place to another (Geogr. Lib. V. 2. 4).

We find the same idea expressed by the Diodorus Siculus (I. V. 80), who uses for the Pelasgians the epithet planomenoi, “nomads”, from planao, to wander.

All the ancient and new attempts of finding the origin of this name, from its Greek form of Pelasgoi, could not reach any serious result.



In reality, the original form of the name “Pelasgi” had been completely different.

The Greeks had borrowed this term from the barbarian populations of the Hem peninsula; had borrowed and had distorted; and if we took into account the Greek phonetic changes, then it is easy to understand that the correct, usual form of this name, in the speech of the southern populations, had been without doubt Balasci, or Belasci, where the Greeks, by the nature of their language, had replaced, as in many other cases, B with P, and from the suffix ascus, asci, had formed a more harsh, guttural one, asgos, asgoi.



In prehistoric antiquity had existed, as we know, only two big groups of the Pelasgii.

The first group were the Arimii, a name which appears in various regions under the various forms: Rami (Ramnes), Remi, Romi, Rumi, Aramaei, Arimi, Arimani, Remores, Aremorici, Ormini, Orchomeni, etc.



The second group were the Abii, or the White Arimii (Abii, Abarimones), to which belonged the inhabitants of Latium (Albani, Bolani, Abolani), and various other Pelasgian tribes, scattered from east to west through the three continents, under the name of: Balaci, Belaci, Bolaci, Bellovaci, Belloaci, Blasci, Blaci, Placi, Palaci, Blaceni, Belcae, Volcae, Volsci, Vloqui, etc.

That the form “Balasci” or “Belasci” as ethnic name had once been used in the Balkan peninsula is proved by the term Balascae, as were called the Thracii of the first half of the Middle Ages (Tomaschek, Die alten Thraker, II. 4).

The Romanian Country (Tera Romanesca) is called even today Vlaska zemlia in the language of the southern Slavs. A district of the Romanian Country is called Vlasca. We also find here the villages Balaci, and the family names Balaciu and Balascu (Hasdeu, Etym. Magn. III. 2992, 2943). Finally, the part of Moravia, where in ancient times was settled a significant group of Romanians, is still called Valaska.



The suffix ascu is neither Greek, nor Slav.

This suffix had also existed in the ancient language of the Pelasgian population, having the same meaning as escu has in the Romanian language of today.

On a Roman inscription discovered at Genova, on the territory of the ancient Ligurii, we find mentioned the rivers Neviasca, Tulelasca, Veraglasca, Vinelasca, certainly reflecting the names of some ancient Ligurian localities (C. I. L. vol. V. nr. 7749. I. 9. 10. 19. 21).

The food tabula of Veleia also mentions two names of localities ended in ascus: fundus Areliascus and fundus Caudalascus (C. I. L. vol. XI. p. 215, nr. 1147, p. 5. 1. 21).

Finally, we find even today in the upper parts of Italy a significant number of localities with the name ending in the suffixes asca and asco:

In the provinces Genova and Porto Maurizio: Caiasca, Marinasco, Morasca, Bagnasco;

In the province Alexandria: Fabiasco, Martinasco;

In Novara and Emilia of Lombardy: Rimasco, Romagnasco, Barbarasco, Sarmadasco, Romasco, etc (De Jubainville, Les premiers habitants. Tome II. 46-59).

The same suffixes also appear in the topical nomenclature of Switzerland, Tyrol, upper Bavaria, Alsace, Loraine, France, Corsica, Spain and Portugal (Ibid. II. p. 68. 86. 99).



We resume: the ancient popular form of the name Pelasgi had been Belasci and Balasci; and the ancient country, the power center from which this people had expanded, had been in Europe, at the Carpathians and the lower Danube.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote etnosoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 11:23
The Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language, according to Herodotus.



We find other historical notes about the ancient language the Pelasgians with Herodotus.

“Which language had the Pelasgians used”, writes he (lib. I. 57, 58), “I certainly cannot affirm; but if we were permitted to draw a conclusion about the Pelasgians who still exist today in the city Crestonia above the Tursenii (in the eastern part of Macedonia, near the sea), and who once dwelt in the region today called Thessaliotis … also, if we had in mind the language of the Pelasgians who had founded the cities Placia and Scylax of Hellespont, and who had previously dwelt together with the Athenians, then we could affirm that the Pelasgians had used a barbarian language …In regard of the nation of the Hellenes though, these had always used, ever since their beginning, the same language, but different from that of the Pelasgian nation …The Pelasgians themselves were a people of barbarian nationality”.

Herodotus speaks here, as we see, only about the Pelasgians who had once dwelt on the territory of Hellada, and about the colonies of these Pelasgians established on the northern shores of the Aegean Sea.



It results therefore, from the notes which we find with Homer and Herodotus, that the barbarian language spoken by the Pelasgians from the territory of Hellada, was an external language. The great mass of the nation of the Barbarians was formed by the Pelasgian populations from the north of Greece, but especially by those from the north of the lower Istru and the Black Sea.

The same ethnic and geographical name had been also adopted by the Romans.

In the first times of the Roman empire, under the name Barbaria, Barbaricum, Barbaricum solum and terra Barbarorum, was meant the vast territory of Europe from the north of Istru to the Ocean and to the frontiers of Asia.

Trajan, writes Sextus Rufus (Brev. c. 8), has conquered Dacia, which was situated on the land of Barbaria, and has made it into a province.

The entire vast lands of Scythia, comprised between the lower Danube and the Meotic Lake, was called, according to Isidorus, terra barbarica (Orig. XIV. 4. 3).

The eastern parts of Mesia are called by Ovid, barbariae loca and Barbara terra (Trist. V. 12, 55; III. 3, 46). With Ammianus, all the countries north of Pannonia figure under the name Barbarorum terrae, Barbaricum and Barbaria (lib. XVII. 12; Bocking, Notit. Dign. 91; II. 96).
. The ethnic character of the ancient barbarian language.



We arrive now to one of the most important matters regarding the language of the Pelasgians: which were the characteristics of the barbarian language, according to the ideas of the ancients?

The Roman authors had begun, even from the times of Cicero, to make a more clear distinction between the barbarian language and the peregrine language.

The expressions barbare loqui and peregrinitas appear in Latin classical literature as two entirely different concepts.

According to Quintilianus (Inst. I. 5), the characteristics of the mode of barbarian speech were the following: to the Latin words were added, or were omitted, some letters or syllables, or, finally, one letter was changed with another, or was moved from its place.

According to Isidorus of Seville, it was called barbarism the mode of speaking of the barbarian tribes, which did not know how to pronounce the Latin words in their entirety. Barbarisms were the corrupt Latin words, either because of the letters they contained, or of the sound with which were pronounced (Orig. I. 31. 1).

The words called “barbarian” by the Roman authors were therefore words of Latin origin, but in a longer or shorter form; sometimes with the letters dislocated, or pronounced with other sounds.



The Roman authors always considered as barbarian language the idioms of the populations of Pelasgian race from Africa, Hispania, Gallia, northern Germania, Rhetia, Dacia, southern Sarmatia, Thracia, Macedonia, Mesia and Illyricum, in which were also included Pannonia, Noricum and Vindelicia.

Even in the times of Ennius (239-169bc), the national language of the populations from the Iberian peninsula was considered as a corrupt Roman language – Hispane non Romane loqui (Charisius, Inst. Gramm. II, in Keil, Gr. Lat. I. 200) – although only during those times had the Romans entered for the first time with their legions in the Pyrenean peninsula.

The Galii were also considered barbarians (Justin. I. XLIII. 4), and their language, “Gallicus sermo”, was regarded as a Roman rustic language (Hieronymus, Epist. ad Rusticum).

A Latin barbarian language was also spoken In the northern parts of Germany.

Drus, the adoptive son of Augustus, Suetonius tells us, had wandered with the Roman legions through almost the whole of Germany, and he had not ceased to chase the Germans until the moment when a barbarian woman appeared before him, and speaking to him in the Latin language, advised him to stop and turn back (Claud. I).

The Sarmatians formed one of the most “barbarian” peoples.

The Mesii were called “Barbari Barbarorum”.

The Bessii, whom Florus calls “Thracum maximus populus”, had the same military ensigns and the same customs as the Romans; but were regarded as “Barbarians” and “barbarus populus”.

All these populations, as we shall see, had a national Latin barbarian language.

The Roman Senate, Cicero tells us (N. D. II. 4), often asked the soothsayers of the Barbarians to look into and to express an opinion, if the Roman consuls had performed the auspices conforming to the ancient religious prescriptions [1].



[1. The old meaning of the word barbaros cannot be explained in the Greek language. The origin of the word must be looked for in the barbarian language. In the beginning, this term seems to have been used by the Greeks only as a simple epithet characteristic for the pastoral tribes from the north of Hellada. The word barbaros, in the form transmitted by the Greek authors, is from the same root of the Latin barbatus, meaning “man who wears beard”.

The ancient Pelasgian tribes had a national custom, the origin of which is lost in the dark of times, to wear uncut beards, left flowing down, “promissa, prolixa barba”, as an external sign of personal dignity and valor. They were called barbaroi, because they wore long beards, as other tribes were called Chomatai, Comati, Capilati, with long tresses; pilophoroi, who wore caps; bracatae nationes, who wore long and wide trousers; Melanchleni, with black mantles, etc. Barba barbarice demissa was a characteristic expression during the empire (Capit. Ver.10).



Greek traditions show Typhon and the Giants with long and horrible beards, which fluttered in the air. Saturn appeared in ancient representations with a long beard falling downwards (barba prolixa). “Jovem semper barbatum” (Cicero, N. D. I. 30). The same custom of wearing natural beards was also had by the ancient Romans (Livy, V. 41; Varro, R. R. II. 11; Pliny, VII. 59). Cicero mentions the horrible beards seen at the ancient statues and images, “illa horrida (barba), quam in statuis antiques et imaginibus videmus” (Cael. 14). Barbatus, with Cicero, means “man with big beard”, according to the ancient custom; “unum aliquem te ex barbatis illis, exemplum imperii veteris, imaginem antiquitatis” (Sext. 8). Ovid writes about the Getae that they did not cut either their hair, or their beard, “non coma, non ulla barba resecta” (Trist. V. 7). On the Column of Trajan, the Getae and the Dacians are represented with natural beards, the nobles as well as the peasant class.



In Romanian folk poems, the old heroes often bear their name by the beards that decorate their face, “Venerable White Beard” (TN – Barba Alba colilie), “Black Beard, whole mind” (TN – Barba Neagra, minte intreaga). The Romanian epic poems tell us about Novac the Old that “his beard beats his waist, and his hair beats his heels”, and that “his beard with his sash he tied”. Finally, we also note here that in mediaeval Latin language “barbaria” meant “barbitonsoris officina” (Du Cange)].



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote etnosoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 11:24
The peregrine language.



The barbarian language was completely different from the language so-called peregrine (peregrinitas).

According to the ideas of Roman authors, the barbarian language was a language which was not grammatical, a rustic language spoken by the native populations of the other provinces of Europe, Africa and Asia, which had the same national origin as the Romans.

The peregrine language though was the language of a people foreign of Roman nationality.

Cicero characterizes these two types of language with the words: “rustica asperitas” and “peregrina insolentia” (De orat. III. 12).

The Greeks were not counted among the Barbarians. They and their language were “peregrine”.

So, Quintilianus makes a distinction between the rustic language and the peregrine language. He attributes the first to the Barbarians, and the second to the Greeks (Inst. I. 5; XI. 3. 30).

Ovid (Trist. V. 10. 27) makes the same separation between the Greeks (Graii) and the Barbarians (Barbara turba).

The same writes Plato: the Greeks are all from the same family and related among themselves, but they are foreigners relative to the barbarians, not being of the same people, genos othneion chai allotrion (Civitas. Lib. V. p. 97)

It is to be noted that, according to Herodotus, the Pelasgians were not part of the same ethnic family of the Greeks, and he considered the language of the Pelasgians entirely different from that of the Greeks (lib. I. c. 58).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote etnosoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 11:25
The barbarian language in Macedonia and in the provinces of Illyricum.



The Macedonians were also a Pelasgian people (Justinus, lib. VII. 1). Their language though was not so Latin as was the dialect of the Dacians and the Sarmatians, because neither the Macedonians, nor the populations of Illyricum figure in the list of the Latin barbarian peoples which we find with Horace. Nevertheless, we have the following important data about the Latin character of the language of the Macedonians.



In 196bc, after the Romans defeated king Filip of Macedonia, there were celebrated with great solemnity the so-called Isthmic games, where an immense multitude of inhabitants of all the lands which had been subjected to king Filip of Macedonia had gathered. On this occasion, after the proconsul Titus Quinctius Flaminius and the Romans commissaries occupied the seats reserved for them at this festivity, the herald, stepping in the center of the arena, spoke in the Latin language these words: that the Roman Senate and the general Titus Quinctius Flaminius, following the defeat of king Filip, order that all the inhabitants of the provinces which had been under the rule of king Filip, be exempted from all the taxes, and live according to their own laws. Hearing the voice of the herald, an extraordinary joy got hold of the entire mob. They could not believe that they had understood well what had been said, and looked at one another with astonishment, as if all this were only the illusion of an empty dream….and being unable to believe their own ears, they asked their neighbors.

The herald was called again, because each of them wanted, not only to hear, but also to see the one who announced their freedom; then the herald pronounced again the same words. The mob, in its excess of joy, started to applaud with repeated shouts, which seemed without end, so that is was easy to understand that for this mob the dearest of all riches was freedom (Livy, Hist. rom. I. XXXIII. 92).



Also in Latin was made the publication of the new organization of Macedonia, and in 167bc the consul Emilius Paulus, after defeating king Perseus of Macedonia, convoked an assembly at Amphipolis. Here, in the middle of an immense multitude of Macedonians, and in the presence of the 10 representatives sent by Rome to regulate the affairs of the conquered country, the consul Emilius Paulus presented in Latin language the wish of the Senate and its decisions, while the praetorian Octavius, who was also present, repeated the same words, interpreting them in Greek language (Livy, Hist. rom. I. XLV. 29).

Both proclamations therefore, that from 196bc, as well as that from 167bc, had been made in the Latin popular language, not in order to impose onto the freed people the national language of the victor, but because their idioms were barbarian Latin.



A barbarian Latin language was also spoken in the provinces of the Illyricum even before Roman conquest. Under the name Illyria were understood in older times all the lands westwards of Thessaly and Macedonia, up to the sea and to Istria; and in the times of the empire, belonged to Illyricum the Noricum, Pannonia, Dalmatia, Mesia and the two Dacia from across the Danube (Sextus Rufus, Breviarium, c. VIII; Bocking, Not. Dign. II. 6).

The Illyrii, according to Suidas, were a people of Thracian nationality, and the Thracians, according to Strabo, spoke the same language as the Getae.

Pannonia was conquered only in 9ad; and 21 years after this conquest, Velleius Paterculus wrote the following: “In all the Pannonias, there exist not only Roman customs and mores, but also a sort of Roman language, and many also occupy themselves with literature” (II. 110. 5; Vopiscus, Aurel. C. 24).



The Roman language which was spoken by the inhabitants of Pannonia in the times of Paterculus, was therefore an ancient national language, not imposed by the conqueror’s civilization. It continued to be that until the times of the emperor Julianus (361-363), a language paene barbara, as the historian Aurelius Victorus tells us (De Caes. 37. 7; Schuchardt, Der Vokalism. d. Vulgarlat. III. 44).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 11:41
Originally posted by etnosoul etnosoul wrote:



It is to be noted that, according to Herodotus, the Pelasgians were not part of the same ethnic family of the Greeks, and he considered the language of the Pelasgians entirely different from that of the Greeks (lib. I. c. 58).



Really?

I will repost what Herodotus said for the
third time now
.Angry

Herodotus 1.58


Τὸ δὲ Ἑλληνικὸν γλώσσῃ μέν, ἐπείτε ἐγένετο, αἰεί κοτε τῇ
αὐτῇ διαχρᾶται, ὡς ἐμοὶ καταφαίνεται εἶναι. Ἀποσχισθὲν
μέντοι ἀπὸ τοῦ Πελασγικοῦ


translation:

"But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always
had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when
separated from the Pelasgians
"

In Herodotus

Book I, 56 (page 53) it is mentioned "These races, Ionian and
Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian
and the second an Hellenic people.
The Pelasgian stock has never
yet left its habitation, the Hellenic has wandered often and
afar. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land
of Phthia, then in the time of Dorus son of Hellen the country
called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus; driven by the Cadmeans
from this Histiaean country it settled about Pindus in the parts
called Macednian
; thence again it migrated to Dryopia, and at
last came from Dryopia to Peloponnesos, where it took the name of
Dorian".



and......



Dionysus of Halikarnassos "Roman Antiquities" 1.17.2.1

καὶ τὸ τῶν Πελασγῶν γένος Ἑλληνικὸν ἐκ Πελοποννήσου

translation:

for the Pelasgians too, were a Hellenic race originally from the Peloponnesus


Can you please read the nonsense before you copy and paste hundreds of sentences that have no relevance to the discussion.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 11:47
Ethnosoul, do you really expect people to read and repond to your constant reams of information/blather..? It's a pointless addition to a pointless topic, requiring a merciful closure.
Am not I Dametas? Why, am not I Dametas?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 12:02

However, etnosoul is right when he says Herodotus believes the Pelasgians were not Hellenes (at least initially). From Herodotus (Godley edition):

1.57 What language the Pelasgians spoke I cannot say definitely. [...] one may judge by these, the Pelasgians spoke a language which was not Greek. If, then, all the Pelasgian stock spoke so, then the Attic nation, being of Pelasgian blood, must have changed its language too at the time when it became part of the Hellenes. [...]

1.58 But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians, few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them. Before that, I think, the Pelasgic stock nowhere increased much in number while it was of foreign speech.
 
chicagogeorge, your excerpt from 1.58 is losing the original sense. The paragraph says the Hellenes are few in number when taken separatedly from the Pelasgians, not that they were separated from the Pelasgians.
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 13-Sep-2007 at 12:06
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