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Forum LockedWho was jesus, Prophet?

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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who was jesus, Prophet?
    Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 10:02
Originally posted by Cryptic

What extraordinary abilities does the Quran or Islamic tradition describe Jesus as having?

I don't think I can relate a whole list to you, some are above. Speaking in Infancy, healing the blind, curing the lepers, virgin birth. Islamic tradition usually accepts the biblical account, walking on water etc. Although there will be alot of skepticism about water into wine. As wine is neither Kosher or Halal.
Originally posted by Truth

i see ur point, but you've only used quotations from the Quran to support ur point.

Well that is where our religion comes from. We don't accept the NT as an authentic religious source, and where there are sections that support us, there is an offical Church interpretation to the opposite.
If I view the bible from an Islamic point of view there is theology to be learnt. If I view the bible from a Christian pov you can also learn things. But you cannot teach the basics of Islam from reading the bible from a christian point of view. If you could then Christians would be muslims.

That's the whole point.

I can direct you to this site: http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10-1.htm it may be more what you are looking for, but I don't give any guarentees about its content or intention.
it also seems a little odd that god would send this magnificent prophet/messiah which his prophets spoke admittedly of through his prophets for over 500 yrs, who was only supposed liberate humanity, only to have his message completely twisted completely out of proportion by his own followers within 50 days of his death. its the biggest flop on god's behalf ever recorded.

Aren't you second guessing God's motives there? God doesn't make everybody to be believers, not every prophet to be sucessful. If he wanted everyone to believe, they would.

There are thousands of prophets whose names we haven't even heard of. There are prophets who were killed shortly into their mission, there are prophets who's only job was to prepare for the next one. We are sitting here discussing Jesus 2000 years after he lived, there are still people who based on his example live moral lives. Christianity is undoubtably better for your sole than paganism. He was one of the most successful. He just wasn't last. Probably only Muhammed and Ibrahim were more sucessful

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 31-Jan-2009 at 10:02
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 12:16
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Although there will be alot of skepticism about water into wine. As wine is neither Kosher or Halal.
 
Wine can be kosher.
 
You can buy some from http://www.kosherwine.com/ 
 
(Not that I'm suggesting you would) Angel
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 22:29
Oh, I didn't think alcohol was kosher.
http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm this site says that the grapes have to be grown by Jews though. I suppose that's what Kosher wine is then.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 20:51
I don't know the rules for kosher wine, I just knew it existed. All the Jews I know don't bother about it.
 
I have a Muslim friend or two who go through the odd bottle with dinner, too. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 20:44
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Cryptic

What extraordinary abilities does the Quran or Islamic tradition describe Jesus as having?

I don't think I can relate a whole list to you, some are above. Speaking in Infancy, healing the blind, curing the lepers, virgin birth. Islamic tradition usually accepts the biblical account, walking on water etc.
Is Mohammad or Abraham described as having similar abilities such as miraculous healings, or walking on water?  Also, by accepting the virgin birth of Jesus, is Islam stating that Jesus did not have a human father? 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Although there will be alot of skepticism about water into wine. As wine is neither Kosher or Halal.
 Wine can be kosher.
Both Kosher and ordinary wine go back along ways in Judaism. The prophet Isaiah and other prophets repeatedly use imagary relating to wine and vineyards to convey religous teachings.  Jesus (culturally Jewish) then continued this tradition where drinking wine was permissable for religious and secular reasons i.e turing water into wine and the use of wine (blood of Christ) in the eucharist.    
 
As a side note, Kosher wine is ordinary wine that has been made by religous law. Therefore, it can be potentially used in Jewish religous ceremonies. If it has not not blessed, it can be drunk normally.


Edited by Cryptic - 02-Feb-2009 at 20:53
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 22:57
Is Mohammad or Abraham described as having similar abilities such as miraculous healings, or walking on water?

Ibrahim is, but different. The regeneration of the bird, surviving being burnt.
Just to be clear these are miracles from God rather than from the person. They don't illustrate Jesus's power, but Gods.
Also, by accepting the virgin birth of Jesus, is Islam stating that Jesus did not have a human father?

Yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 08:55

"Aren't you second guessing God's motives there? God doesn't make everybody to be believers, not every prophet to be successful. If he wanted everyone to believe, they would." -Omar

Second guessing god's motives? Really Omar. That is nonsense. of course I'm not second guessing his motives. i don't need to guess guess his motives, nor can i. I'm just comparing what happened (according to you- that jess' message, the message of the great messiah, was twisted to the point of idolitary in less that two months) to what the prophets said would happen. thats the whole point of prophesy. it's so we know what god is going to do and make sure we are working with and in accordance with his will and plan. All I'm saying is that that there is a big difference to what you saying happened and what the prophets said would happen, where as if you say that jesus actually forfiled his task and passed on a message and a covenant that did bring freedom to the Jews and Gentiles then this works with prophetic literature of the old covenant. That's why I'm not second guessing, I'm just looking at what the old testament and the facts on Post-crusifiction doctrine according to Muslims and am trying to reconcile the massive void between the two. The two just don't match, regardless of your interpretation.

and your statement about " God doesn't make everybody to be believers, not every prophet to be successful." isn't that second guessing God's motives. if i am interpreting you correctly and you're saying that god only wants some of us to believe and others to forgo eternal death, and assuming you are right, please explain to me and everyone else who does not come under the banner of thought that qualifies you to become a believer, why god chose you and not us?
Also I'm curious as to what your definition of a "successful prophet" is? isn't any prophet who follows the guidance of the divine successful? the only way it is not sucsessful is if the prophet is disobedient. If God planned for Jesus' message to be distorted and lead Billions of people astray into idolatry. Now god new the effects of this distorted message and that Jesus followers, including his own Brother, would create a theological monster? Is this part of his plan? Mabey it is, though he never one indicated that the messiah would ever bring about such a distorted theological machine. He said quite the opposite, that this messiah would be exulted above all other men to rule the earth from mount Zion, where his throne would be established.


There is another problem, which i would also like to raise, and that is this. If Jesus did do what the prophets said he would do, and establish a new covenant with man, then if he was just the messenger for this errand, why was his manner completely different from moses? Let me explain.


Moses was chosen by god to lead the people and establish the covenant that god promised to Ibrahim, one which would extend to the house of isreal, Ibriham's decendant. He said tot he people of isreal (the entire nation at once) that the ten commandments were sent by god, along with the requirements and laws laid out in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and was clear that it was the Lord, God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob by whom this covenant had come from and who it was with.Shocked



Edited by Truthisnotrelitive - 05-Feb-2009 at 08:56
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 08:57

Jesus took a completely different approach. He announced the new covenant over dinner with some friends, and he didn't say that this was God's covenant between God and man (i.e man being Jesus + his disciples + rest of the earth). He said “This cup is the new covenant between god and his people, an agreement confirmed with my blood, which is poured out as a sacrifice for you. [Luke 22:20] emphasis added)


an agreement confirmed with my blood, which is poured out as a sacrifice for you. This is an odd statement. By this it is clear that jesus blood is a sacrifice poured out (that's a lot of blood!) which confirms the new covenant. Now if jesus' blood/life is a sacrifice, and as he has stated earlier on that this new covenant (the establishment of the kingdom of God of which he talks extensively on- bordering on obsessively in all books of the Goslples) then proves problematic. When god made a covenant with Abraham a sacrifice was made. The condition of sacrifice in the law was that it was perfect, and as jesus said “he came to forfill the law, not destroy it”. He said this because it is impossible to destroy a covenant. You can break it and therefore be unable to recive it's benefits but you can't destoy it. If you break it you're a party of a broken covenant, but the only way god could establish the new covenant promised through the prophets was to get rid of the old contract so he could establish the new one. How does one get completely rid of the old contract? As i said earlier on, god divorces Israel, so to speak. But it is a little more complicated that just that, as he promised to be the god over all of isreal and that he would never leave isreal or abandon them. He says he will separate himself from them is they're disobedient, but he can't just pack up and leave. IF he did he would break his oath, and become a liar, thus becoming unholy.


When he “ends” his covenant of favor with isreal, he finds himself in a bit of a pickle. So, inorder to keep his promises in the old covenant about separating himself from isreal if they sinned and yet keep his promises to Abraham about eternal blessing, the only way to do both is end the old covenant. How does he do that? By forfilling his bit so he does not become a liar.


But the only way a covenant can end is if both parties do what they said they would do. If the children of Israel were to forfill the law, then they would have to be perfect, yes? But scripture is clear that this is impossible “the human hear is desperately and deceitfully wicked. Who can know it?”. So how does one still for fill the law and be done with it? By offering a perfect sacrifice as atonement for sin (breach of contract).




So how does this relate to Jesus? In order to be a sacrifice, he had to be perfect. But according to scripture that is impossible for a man. Scripture says “no man is perfect, there is not even one.”Only god is perfect. So if Jesus was a man, How can he be an acceptable offering for the confirmation of a Covenant? And if there is atonement for sin for all through him (I am the door, I am the way, the truth, the life, no one can come to the Father except through me” (even if you offer animal sacrifices you cannot come to the father in the sense which he interpreted coming to the Father meant)) then how is that possible for a human to release man of a covenant made by god? Is Jesus more powerful than god. The only thing that has dominion over god is himself. So if jesus was like a piece of the divine, therefore his comment at the supper table makes sense. Otherwise he is clamming to be as holy as god, but is infact not, thus becoming a hieratic (the only group of people he ever really condemned).



Edited by Truthisnotrelitive - 05-Feb-2009 at 08:58
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 04:57
Truth you have read my posts but you haven't understood them. You trying to interpret Islam in a biblical fashion. You will never understand the Islamic concept of Jesus while you hold onto the bible and Jewish national mythology.

God does not have anything to do with Jewish national mythology, or a biblios written by humans. Nor does Islam.

I think I have already answered your last two posts in my previous posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2009 at 19:02
Omar
I respect your right to believe but The Quran is the word of God, and as such is infallible - there are many scholars and even former Muslims who do not agree with this statement; starting with Ibn Warraq a former Muslim.
I also notice he is critical of Orthodox Christianity also.


There are many Christians who believe the same thing and while I do not share either view I would suggest reading "When Critics Ask."
If you believe this then more power to you but I do not agree with you.
It still might be good to read conflicting views, I do all the time.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 04:34
?

Well obviously a former Muslim would think or believe that the Quran isn't the Word of God otherwise why bother

That would be like a former atheist believing or thinking that there is still no God



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Post Options Post Options   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 05:25
if a muslim believes that the Quran is not God's words then he is not a Muslim anymore, i don't know if that applies to Christianity, but i guess if you don't believe that jesus is God then you are not christian anymore.

Jesus is a Prophet in Islam, its stated in the Quran, therefore he is a Prophet to muslims, and since the Quran and the Hadiths stated clearly that the Christians and Jewish Holy Books were changed and not exactly as they came from God, whatever written in those holy books is considered God's words if they agree with the Quran and questionable if it does not agree with the Quran.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 14:36
Always comes back to the same principle.
 
No one has ever been argued into a faith, unless they have pre-disposed themselves to an argument that is the same vein as their current state of inquiry or situation.
 
A person may simply be looking for something to confirm his opinions, or a person may simply look up the arguments after he has support the viewpoint of the other, but necessarily through argument.
 
Still, an itneresting discussion altogether.
 
 
 
 
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
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Post Options Post Options   Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 23:56
For the arguement that Jesus was just another prophet it would mean he was a man.  Yet the qoran agrees that he was not a man, it accepts the virgin birth.  Thereby stating he was something other than man.  Therefore he can not be just another prophet.
 
The other problem is a misunderstanding of Jesus's message.  His was not a one time mission, he himself states that he will return.  Jesus had two missions for coming to earth.  The first was so that death could be removed.  He needed to die as a sacrifice so that we humans do not need to perform sacrifices.  The whole aim of sacrifice in the OT is to purify the soul from the inherited sin.  This was all part of the covenant between God and Man, however god was ending that covenant.  But man was still born to sin, we have inherited sin from our forefathers.  For that reason there needed to be a sacrifice, a big sacrifice, otherwise we would all be condemed to death.  Jesus was that sacrifice, his death saved us from death.
 
But there is a second task for Jesus, one which will fulfill the Jewish Messiah idea.  One that is told in revelations.  Jesus will return again, to bring a kingdom over all the earth.  God's kingdom that will last for 1000 years.  At the end of that the earth will be destroyed and rebuilt without sin.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 03:16
The Quran accepts he was a man, virgin birth or not, I suggest you read up on things you argue a bit more next time. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 07:35
Jesus was the prince of peace in all religions, he never claim he was god  only in the unity of God . john 18  let them know we are one I in you and you  in me all be perfected into one.
 
The only problem I see is who got the dibs on what old rules  of the bible man should    follow . fantanic islam seems to treat their women with such disrepect and horror when it is  the women that gives them life.
 
Issa
Woman, mother of the universe,' in her lies the truth of creation. She is the foundation of all that is good and beautiful. She is the source of life and death. Upon her depends the existence of man, because she is the sustenance of his labors. She gives birth to you in travail, she watches over your growth. Bless her. Honor her. Defend her. Love your wives and honor them, because tomorrow they shall be mothers, and later-progenitors of a whole race. Their love ennobles man, soothes the embittered heart and tames the beast. Wife and mother-they are the adornments of the universe."

"As light divides itself from darkness, so does woman possess the gift to divide in man good intent from the thought of evil. Your best thoughts must belong to woman. Gather from them your moral strength, which you must possess to sustain your near ones. Do not humiliate her, for therein you will humiliate yourselves. And all which you will do to mother, to wife, to widow or to another woman in sorrow-that shall you also do for the Spirit."

 
Remember in  luke when asked who`s wife will she be in heaven?  there is no marriage only those that are worthy to be  of the angels, so forget the seven virgins:)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 19:48
But he is not just a man, how can that be when he was created not born.  As a result of that he must be something else, something supernatural.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 20:57
Originally posted by warwolf1969

But he is not just a man, how can that be when he was created not born.  As a result of that he must be something else, something supernatural.
 
Actually, the traditional Christian line (which is what I think you are trying to get at; please correct me if I am mistaken) is that Christ was begotten, not created. As such, he was born, both from all eternity of the Father, and at a specific point in time of the Virgin in his Incarnation.
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 01:55
Originally posted by warwolf

The first was so that death could be removed.  He needed to die as a sacrifice so that we humans do not need to perform sacrifices.  The whole aim of sacrifice in the OT is to purify the soul from the inherited sin.  This was all part of the covenant between God and Man, however god was ending that covenant.  But man was still born to sin, we have inherited sin from our forefathers.  For that reason there needed to be a sacrifice, a big sacrifice, otherwise we would all be condemed to death.  Jesus was that sacrifice, his death saved us from death.

We don't believe sin is inherited. Everyone is responsible only for their own actions. Nor do we believe that God's forgiveness is dependent on something dieing.
But he is not just a man, how can that be when he was created not born.  As a result of that he must be something else, something supernatural.

God created the whole universe, how hard is it for him to create one man?
But there is a second task for Jesus, one which will fulfill the Jewish Messiah idea.  One that is told in revelations.  Jesus will return again, to bring a kingdom over all the earth.  God's kingdom that will last for 1000 years.  At the end of that the earth will be destroyed and rebuilt without sin.

Yep, al-Masih and al-Mahdi will throw everyone a party at the end of time. Lots of muslims believe that too.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 04-Jun-2009 at 01:55
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2009 at 12:43
Hmmm...the premise for the whole discussion seems to be that there is a God. But is there really any convincing, unambiguous proof that there is a (or many) God???

Edited by Carcharodon - 04-Jun-2009 at 12:45
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