History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedWho was jesus, Prophet?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
Author
Murat View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 27-Mar-2007
Location: Cleveland
Status: Offline
Points: 85
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 06:31
Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!----Rumi
Back to Top
Truthisnotrelitive View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 13-Oct-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 04:05
having dificulty posting
a man sees as he wishes
Back to Top
Truthisnotrelitive View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 13-Oct-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 04:05

i admit i don't seem to enter a discussion without somone trying to convince me truth is relitive. mabey i should change my name just to avoid the bother of having these debates.

any way. um ... i would like to mention that the book of john indicate that jesus was more than just another bloke/prophet. take jonh 1:

 

John 1 (New International Version)

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b]

 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John the Baptist Denies Being the Christ

 19Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ.[g]"

 21They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
      He said, "I am not."
      "Are you the Prophet?"
      He answered, "No."

 22Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"

 23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.' "[h]

 24Now some Pharisees who had been sent 25questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"

 26"I baptize with[i] water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know. 27He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie."

 28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Jesus the Lamb of God

 29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."

 32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

Jesus' First Disciples

 35The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"

 37When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus. 38Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, "What do you want?"
      They said, "Rabbi" (which means Teacher), "where are you staying?"

 39"Come," he replied, "and you will see."
      So they went and saw where he was staying, and spent that day with him. It was about the tenth hour.

 40Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. 41The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ). 42And he brought him to Jesus.
      Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter[j]).

 
 
now this is an interesting passage as it speaks of the Word (which is God) becoming flesh. than isn't an interpretation, that's just what it says. so here the Word is refurred to as containing life which gave light to the world. it appears that this Flesh/Word exsisted with god in the begining, and was indeed god himself (what ever "he" is). there is a lot to this scripture, and as it was endorsed by the Prophet Mohammed, arguments that state that the scriptures are biased toward the author's own agenda are irrelevent in this context. If the prophet endorsed a sripture that was twisted by his followers, then you question the Prophets authority as a spiritual voice from god to man.  Period.


Edited by Truthisnotrelitive - 16-Jan-2009 at 04:09
a man sees as he wishes
Back to Top
Truthisnotrelitive View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 13-Oct-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 04:07

 

I was disapointed by one of es_bih’s posts as he quoted all of these sriptures and then did nothing to provide us with an interpretation backed up by a logical argument.

 




"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him."

John 13:16

Now many of these  are actually taken right ot of context. Take for instance the last one Jonh13:16. here jesus is talking to his disiples at the last supper. Let me requote the passage with the surounding verces.

 

6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"

 7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."

 8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
      Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

 9"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"

 10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

 12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. 13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

 

Emphasis added.

 

Now here Jesus refers to himself as Lord. This term in the Greek (Kurios) is defined as:

  1. He to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    1. The possessor and disposer of a thing
      1. The owner; one who has control of the person, the master
      2. In the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    2. Is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
    3. This title is given to: God, the Messiah

Greek lexicon.

Here Jesus clearly positions himself as an icon of respect by the use of an authorative title, so to use this as part of your argument, es-bih, is taking this passage out of context. Now this authority does not necessarily mean he is god, but it sure points to the fact that he is indeed the messiah as he later on admits to. It is worth noting, also, that he tended to avoid the subject of his “messiah-ship” just like he avoided the topic of his divinity. By the new and old testaments make it pretty clear that he was the messiah (particularly Isaiah). 

 

So, does old covenant scripture point to the conclusion of the messiah’s divinity? Be it yes or no, what is the role of the messiah, what does scripture say of him, and of his purpose? Is he a sin offering or just a leader who never really set the captives free from the oppression of the Roman Empire? What is the messiah’s role in the grand scheme of things from a Muslim perspective? If we can agree that he was just a man for the moment, then what was Allah’s purpose for him? I know this question has been discussed a little already, but I’m not satisfied with the answers due to their brevity and lack of references.

 

What is the Messiah’s role? Is he man or God?

I would love to hear a Jew’s perspective on the messiah’s role at this stage in the argument.

a man sees as he wishes
Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Beglerbeg

Joined: 20-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 05:37
Originally posted by Truthisnotrelitive Truthisnotrelitive wrote:

i admit i don't seem to enter a discussion without somone trying to convince me truth is

Generally when you make a claim people will disagree and point out their rationale for doing so. That's pretty obvious and a part of discussion.

Back to Top
Truthisnotrelitive View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 13-Oct-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 05:48
iknow, i know. Smile i just can't help being amused by some of the responses i get. LOL.
a man sees as he wishes
Back to Top
Murat View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 27-Mar-2007
Location: Cleveland
Status: Offline
Points: 85
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 06:31
It is not fun ,just logic.
I am also wondering why u did not send whole (passages of) the Bible as a proof of your idea.
Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!----Rumi
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 7011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 15:34
Originally posted by Truthisnotrelitive Truthisnotrelitive wrote:

i admit i don't seem to enter a discussion without somone trying to convince me truth is relitive. mabey i should change my name just to avoid the bother of having these debates.

any way. um ... i would like to mention that the book of john indicate that jesus was more than just another bloke/prophet.

Well, it would do, wouldn't it? The Bhagavad Gita indicates that Krishna was more than just another chariot driver, too. And the Book of Mormon indicates that Mormon was more than just another gold engraver.
 
Religious texts are not evidence of their own truth.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Status: Offline
Points: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 19:49
I think it really depends on your theological views and upbringing. To most Christians he is more than a Prophet- the son of God.

But, to other religions such as Islam he is an important prophet but nothing more.

Even between Mormons and main Stream Christianity they view Jesus differently. The JW's believe he is the arch angel michael and not God in the flesh.

Whatever you believe about him is truth for you in my opinion. This could be argued till the cow come home because it is very subjective and based upon one's interpretation of religion or theirs.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
Murat View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 27-Mar-2007
Location: Cleveland
Status: Offline
Points: 85
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 22:48
         The source of the knowledge and the declerations of the prophets is same for all time periods.Some of the prophets are unknown but all the populations even tribes has been had the capability to reach the truth. The truth is we are created and One did it. "Believe it or not"  has been the offering of all prophets.
         In an opinion, if you are not a polytheist, you will be appreciated by God. All the prophets in a chronological order brought the truth to mankind, each one as a sample with their lives.They talked about three basic things: Faith,afterlife, and fairness.
         One more thing:
         If a regime,an economical system,an ideology or a belief is alive, there must certainly be some seeds of the truth in it. Because human being is wise enough to seperate it from enormity unless (he/she) hasn`t lost the conscience.
         "Religious texts are not evidence of their own truth."  This is a wrong proposal because religions are not in a race.
Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!----Rumi
Back to Top
Menumorut View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jun-2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 1116
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 23:13
The nature of Jesus cann't be known in this life. He may be God or a creature or even didn't exist. The texts of the New Testament are not presenting Him as a creature; He doesn't speak (only) about God but about Himself. Not any other claimed prophet had spoken like that.


But texts are relative. I think nobody should take a text as the word of God. If in a text there are some good ideas, they will work spontanously in the human consciences. Proclaiming that any text is final or only word of God means to shut off yourself from further revelations inside yourself. If God is alive, He can give more than a text to humanity.

Edited by Menumorut - 17-Jan-2009 at 00:15

Back to Top
Murat View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 27-Mar-2007
Location: Cleveland
Status: Offline
Points: 85
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 05:18
"If God is alive, He can give more than a text to humanity."
God is not a living thing. God gives LIFE to his creatures. In biology there is no exact definition of life. Biologists are trying to define it but God creates the Life as a thing.
       So Logically we cannot claim any resemblance to be between God and His creations. All the things in the universe are the arts and enough for wise human to understand how artist,The Fashioner of Forms our God is.The universe has much more messages than those of The texts`(Hollybooks`) .
       
 
Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!----Rumi
Back to Top
Menumorut View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jun-2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 1116
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 06:07
Originally posted by Murat Murat wrote:


God is not a living thing. God gives LIFE to his creatures. In biology there is no exact definition of life. Biologists are trying to define it but God creates the Life as a thing.

       So Logically we cannot claim any resemblance to be between God and His creations. All the things in the universe are the arts and enough for wise human to understand how artist,The Fashioner of Forms our God is.The universe has much more messages than those of The texts`(Hollybooks`) .


Something cannot create something superior to it. If God created life he has life in itself. The God of gospels is alive:

In him was life, and that life was the light of men. (John 1, 4)
I am the way and the truth and the life. (John 14, 6)
and others.


The same for the God of Olt Testament, there are many passages where God says "I am alive".

Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Status: Offline
Points: 2983
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 08:20
Originally posted by Truthisnotrelitive Truthisnotrelitive wrote:

hey peoples of AE

i had a bit of a question, actually, but i decided to post it in the philosophy/theology section because it could prove to evolve into a good debate. (but if someone answers it strait up then if it gets moved to Q's and A's then that's fine with me)

BTW: if this question has been sufficiently discussed before in another post, just refurr me to the post and archive section where i may find it.Big smile

anyway, here goes.

For the sake of this discussion, lets make it clear that the god of the tanakh, the new testament and the Quran are the same (El'oheim, Allah, YHWH, the Lord ect.). This is the stance of most Muslims I'm assuming.
Now, as we know, the Jewish bible (the Tanakh) was the first revelation/s of the Divine to mankind. In this revelation the Divine establishes a covenant with Abram/ Ibrahim (a blessing of his reproductive abilities), which was later extended through the mosaic law. Then came the revelation of the Christ. This new revelation was possibly prophesied by the prophets of old, as the children of Israel had disobeyed the lord their god, thus breaching the covenant made between god and their ancestor, and were consequently sent into exile in Babylon. Thus god (speaking through the prophets) terminated the old contract, and divorced Israel. But he spoke of a new covenant that he would make with his people and extend that agreement with the other nations of the world. This new covenant was tied in with the messiah. Christ the messiah came, as prohesied. He established the new agreement between god and man. Then, some time later, Mohamed received his revaluation from the angel Gabriel, which introduced a different theology to the new and old testaments. The Quran is the final revelation of god, and the rest of the sacred scriptures (tanakh and new covenant)

are stages of god's revelation that lead to the final testament – the writings of The Prophet. Jesus is revered as a holy prophet, just as the other prophets (eg. Ibrahim) are revered. However jesus has one defining feature which makes him unlike the other prophets. Jesus claims to be not only sent by god, but to be, in essence, the personification of the divine himself. He makes this clear many times in scripture. (eg “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one can come to the father except through me”john 4:6 and “i pray that they would be one, just as you and i are one- as you are in me, father, and i in you”.john 17:21, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born I AM” John 8:57.). these are big claims.


so here is where i don't get it. If jesus is god(in complete oneness with the Divine All Powerful), and he establishes the new covenant, then why is another revelation of god necessary? Did god fail a second time in maintaining a global contract between himself and man, even though this one was according to him impossible to break and would last for all eternity? Was a third needed? But if Jesus is just a prophet as mentioned in the Quran, then why did he come. And on that note, if he was just a man inspired by god, yet he claimed to be god himself, the only two possible assumptions are he is a lying nut case or he is telling the truth. The is no middle ground. He either is the messiah or he isn't, and if he isn't, why does the Quran encourage its followers to read the teachings of a madman?


Just wonderingSmile

 
 
your post above is not clear to me, if you explain it more it would be helpfull.
 
as i understood  you are a christian wondering about Jesus being a Prophet or not.
 
ok, then why the part which i highlighted in red seems to be more islamic that christian, or that is a quote from somewhere ?
 
then the part Blue seems to be be islamic ( Jesus a Prophet) at first, then Christian (Jesus is God) at the rest of it??
 
then the Question about if Jesus god then why some people call him prophet,
 
well  People who think Jesus is one of the Prophet dont belive he is God , and who belive he is God dont belive he is a Prophet. simple.
 
at least Muslims do Respect Jesus as a holy prophet, unlike Jews who consider him nobody.
 
 
Back to Top
Murat View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 27-Mar-2007
Location: Cleveland
Status: Offline
Points: 85
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 21:31
Something cannot create something superior to it. If God created life he has life in itself. The God of gospels is alive:

In him was life, and that life was the light of men. (John 1, 4)
I am the way and the truth and the life. (John 14, 6)
and others.

The same for the God of Olt Testament, there are many passages where God says "I am alive".
          
              From the simplest form of living things to highest one, from bacteria to Homo Sapiens .Living things need to have  some food, but God not.Living things digest them to break down into smaller pieces, but God not.Living things produce their energy by aerobic or anaerobic respiration ,but God not.Living things must excrete their metabolic wastes but God not....etc. All of these : nutrition ,digestion respiration,metabolism,excretion and sensitivity are the common charecteristics of all living things.
      God is the giver of life , He may have another form of life but exactly different from ours`. He wants mankind to understand his greatness and superiority in the proportion of our life.


Edited by Murat - 17-Jan-2009 at 21:32
Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!----Rumi
Back to Top
Menumorut View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Jun-2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 1116
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 22:11
Originally posted by Murat Murat wrote:

From the simplest form of living things to highest one, from bacteria to Homo Sapiens .Living things need to have some food, but God not.Living things digest them to break down into smaller pieces, but God not.Living things produce their energy by aerobic or anaerobic respiration ,but God not.Living things must excrete their metabolic wastes but God not....etc. All of these : nutrition ,digestion respiration,metabolism,excretion and sensitivity are the common charecteristics of all living things.
      God is the giver of life , He may have another form of life but exactly different from ours`. He wants mankind to understand his greatness and superiority in the proportion of our life.


By living being I understand self-conscious, rational life, what the animals don't have. If God has will and ration (as you say) He is self-conscious, personal being. So, He is alive. In Christianity food is not necessary in after-life, so its not something human beings are dependent of.

Back to Top
Murat View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 27-Mar-2007
Location: Cleveland
Status: Offline
Points: 85
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Murat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 05:21
             God gave the most honorable status to the human being. All living and non-living things are in the service of mankind. I meant animals have no prophets. :P
              I agree with the second part of your statement.   "In Christianity food is not necessary in after-life, so its not something human beings are dependent of."
              The major point here is: 
              We have some similar properties with the God in the ratio of 1/∞. Such as hearing, seeing,choosing etc. All of these are necessary for us to imagine (not to know because it is not possible) how He is. This  is a kind of proportion, needed for viewers to appreciate the arts of the universe.
Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!----Rumi
Back to Top
Truthisnotrelitive View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 13-Oct-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 22:34

hi azimuth

for the record, none of the paragraphs are quotes. the red one covers a little pre-messiah history and then out lines what i, in my limited understanding, can conclude to be the general Muslim stance on the importance and chronology of the holy books. i may be wrong, but that info seemed a good foundation and useful background knowledge to the discussion. so for the moment i acknowledged my brothers and friends beliefs, stating some of them clearly and simply, before going on to question some inconsistencies in those beliefs.

the reason i asked the questions was not simply to know that, as you said:
"well  People who think Jesus is one of the Prophet don't believe he is God , and who believe he is God don't believe he is a Prophet. simple."


the purpose of the question was to discover the Islamic explanation for these inconsistencies. you can simply say to me that "Jesus is a prophet" or "jesus is god" with out some biblical proof. that's not academic or logical. I'll need more than an opinion without clear and relevant justification before i can consider a response, let alone accept it.


a man sees as he wishes
Back to Top
Truthisnotrelitive View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 13-Oct-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 22:38
by the way, murat, on a technical note, as biologists have not yet defined life, this passage you posted can't be use to define an undefinable thing. there is no complete definition for life in the bible or in modern science.

"From the simplest form of living things to highest one, from bacteria to Homo Sapiens .Living things need to have  some food, but God not.Living things digest them to break down into smaller pieces, but God not.Living things produce their energy by aerobic or anaerobic respiration ,but God not.Living things must excrete their metabolic wastes but God not....etc. All of these : nutrition ,digestion respiration,metabolism,excretion and sensitivity are the common charecteristics of all living things."
a man sees as he wishes
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Status: Offline
Points: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 00:55
Originally posted by Truth Truth wrote:

i admit i don't seem to enter a discussion without somone trying to convince me truth is relitive. mabey i should change my name just to avoid the bother of having these debates.

, Yeah I noticed that too. Don't worry, I won't try to convince that truth is relative (unless we are actually talking about that )

Quote now this is an interesting passage as it speaks of the Word (which is God) becoming flesh. than isn't an interpretation, that's just what it says. so here the Word is refurred to as containing life which gave light to the world. it appears that this Flesh/Word exsisted with god in the begining, and was indeed god himself (what ever "he" is).

I have never really understood this whole "Word" thing in a Christian perspective. It sounds like a incorrectly translated metaphor to me. If anything "the Word" would be "the message", or "by God's command", which is not God.
Quote there is a lot to this scripture, and as it was endorsed by the Prophet Mohammed, arguments that state that the scriptures are biased toward the author's own agenda are irrelevent in this context. If the prophet endorsed a sripture that was twisted by his followers, then you question the Prophets authority as a spiritual voice from god to man.  Period.

Muhammed (pbuh) and the Quran endorse the prophethood of Jesus, not the NT. That is a very important difference. The 'Injeel' of the Quran, although commonly translated as Gospel, is the message preached by Jesus, and not the gospels of the NT. The NT is considered to reflect the opinions of early christians, but not the opinions of Jesus. The only religious text endorsed by the Prophet is the Quran. Hadith requires scrutiny, the Bible doubly so.
Quote What is the messiah’s role in the grand scheme of things from a Muslim perspective? If we can agree that he was just a man for the moment, then what was Allah’s purpose for him?

To bring the people he was sent to (the Palestinians, both Jewish and non-Jewish) back to Islam/Judaism after they had ceased to practice it.
Quote I know this question has been discussed a little already, but I’m not satisfied with the answers due to their brevity and lack of references.

Islamic theology is full of brief answers. My sentence above is pretty well the beginning and the end of the answer. If I said more I'd just be repeating myself. My quotes from the Quran on the first page, and the one I am adding below should be sufficient as references. If you want more this (link) is a link to a good online copy of the Quran. There are three translations there (Yusuf Ali, Shakir and Picthall). If you click on index and search for Jesus you will find everything you need.
Quote O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [4:171]


Quote
I would love to hear a Jew’s perspective on the messiah’s role at this stage in the argument.

We don't have many Jewish members. Try PMing Hebrewtext and asking him if he wants to get involved in this thread.
Originally posted by gcle gcle wrote:

Religious texts are not evidence of their own truth.

They can be, depends what they are saying. But I agree with the point you were trying to make.
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:


The same for the God of Olt Testament, there are many passages where God says "I am alive".

Whether God is alive or not is simply arguing over the definition of our word life. For usually human perception saying God is alive is sufficent, but God is not alive in the same way a butterfly is.

Originally posted by Truth Truth wrote:

the purpose of the question was to discover the Islamic explanation for these inconsistencies. you can simply say to me that "Jesus is a prophet" or "jesus is god" with out some biblical proof. that's not academic or logical. I'll need more than an opinion without clear and relevant justification before i can consider a response, let alone accept it.

There are only opinions to consider Truth. Its St Paul's opinion (through the Church) against God's opinion (through the Quran). I've given you Quranic proof which in our opinion trumps biblical proof. The bible has been throughly studied by both Chuchmen and Ulema for a very long time, as such for every passage that would seem to refute Jesus's divinity there is an official church interpretation that says the opposite. For every part of the bible that seems to endorse his divinity there is another that refutes it. As such there is no biblical proof in either direction concerning Jesus's divinity. Rather than the two of us throwing bible passages at each other it should be fairly evident from the number of monotheist christian sects both ancient and modern. The discussion over divinity in the bible is only predated by the discussion over the authenticity of the bible and the role of the church in its creation.
Its the word of the Roman church* vs the word of the Quran, the OT, and monotheistic Christians**.


*As in the Church of the Roman Empire.
** I should just call them all "Greater Muslims", as in, muslims + those who believe as we do both modern and pre-islam
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.