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Forum LockedWho was jesus, Prophet?

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es_bih View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 02:33
No; that is a real opinion or belief(mine and I assume Omar's, too) coming from an Islamic viewpoint the Qu'ran is the Word of God. Which of course has literal, metaphorical, and allegorical aspects to it, but on the whole it is generally viewed as the Word of God Islamically speaking. 

Edited by es_bih - 11-Jan-2009 at 02:34

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 06:44
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

We consider that the Bible is written by several fallible authors, the names of whom are well known and often in the title of each document. The authors may have been trying their best (although some I am not sure about), but they may not have had all the information. Each document should be judged according to its merit. The Quran is the word of God, and as such is infallible. So if there is a contridiction we consider the biblical author to be in error.
I agree with you in many points you said about the bible, but pardon, your sentence above which I marked, is this your real opinion or is it a joke. I am not sure. Perhaps you can help me.

Of course it is a real opinion. Shared by every other muslim on the planet.
Quote This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.[10:37]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 14:15
Originally posted by Truthisnotrelitive Truthisnotrelitive wrote:

hi es_bih

i appreciate you quick response, but i still know no more than before your post. you seemed to of side stepped the verses i quoted (and there are many more like them). Perhaps you should reread the whole chapter of John 17 to refresh your memory on jesus' claims. When he spoke of this oneness and of this father as mentioned, it is recorded on numerous that the jews then tried to stone him for making such claims. They understood jesus was saying he was the messiah, and people asked him this and he never denied it. To say he was speaking of something other than his divinity and just reffuring to himself as another son of Abraham(son of god) is taking the verse out of context, as the reactions of the Jewish public clearly prove.

In Judaism the Messiah is not God, and isn't even divine. So when the Jews resented him calling himself the Messiah (if he was) they did not think he was calling himself divine.  That the Messiah is divine is new with Christianity (and, of course, not accepted by Islam).
 
Your later references were all to Christian sources, and of course Christians believed him divine: when Christians report what John the Baptist (or whoever) said, it's somewhat likely that what they report will support his divinity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 00:06
Oh, then I am sorry. I probably will never understand you true believers. It is fascinating, all the guys who know what God wants and who can hear God speaking on christian, jewish and muslim side. God is speaking to all three groups ( not to mention all the greater or little fractions) but unfortunately he can't decide to say the same things to them. Perhaps it is because God must be on old, old man.
Here are many brilliant persons, who care about history, who be very scientific. But if it comes to religion, all this is gone. Was Jesus a prophet, a son of God or one with god? Had Mary a virgin birth? Tried Herodes to kill Jesus?
We know that Jesus shall be born when Augustus made a census. This was 6 or 7 AD. The three holy kings (magoi) shall visited him. Scientists can't decided between 7 and 2 BC. Herodes died in 4 BC. How can a dead man try to kill a baby? How can virgins get children? Why made God a child with Josef's bride? How can people believe Jesus was God send, God's son or God himself? He was only a man with a vision, not different to all the jewish prophets before him, not different to Mohammed after him, not different to Buddha, Bhagwan, Moon or all these guys from the church TV. But the only difference, together with Mohammed, was that his vision was one of the successful ones. That's all.
We know nothing about Jesus youth. He had to be born in Bethlehem to be of Davids tribe. Perhaps they created the Egypt story because Moses and Jacob went there. They hated Herodes, so he got a part in the story. Three magoi had to come to his birth, the birth of a tektonos' son. This is all fiction. Jesus became historical in the times of John the Baptist. Probably he was a follower of him. He was against the jewish establishment and probably against the Roman occupation. He cared about the jewish groups at the border of the society. At the end he personally failed and died at the cross. That's all. His fortune was that Petrus and Paulus brought the ideas of Jesus (or perhaps their own visions) to non-Jewish groups and were successful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 00:13
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Oh, then I am sorry. I probably will never understand you true believers. It is fascinating, all the guys who know what God wants and who can hear God speaking on christian, jewish and muslim side. God is speaking to all three groups ( not to mention all the greater or little fractions) but unfortunately he can't decide to say the same things to them. Perhaps it is because God must be on old, old man.
Here are many brilliant persons, who care about history, who be very scientific. But if it comes to religion, all this is gone. Was Jesus a prophet, a son of God or one with god? Had Mary a virgin birth? Tried Herodes to kill Jesus?
We know that Jesus shall be born when Augustus made a census. This was 6 or 7 AD. The three holy kings (magoi) shall visited him. Scientists can't decided between 7 and 2 BC. Herodes died in 4 BC. How can a dead man try to kill a baby? How can virgins get children? Why made God a child with Josef's bride? How can people believe Jesus was God send, God's son or God himself? He was only a man with a vision, not different to all the jewish prophets before him, not different to Mohammed after him, not different to Buddha, Bhagwan, Moon or all these guys from the church TV. But the only difference, together with Mohammed, was that his vision was one of the successful ones. That's all.
We know nothing about Jesus youth. He had to be born in Bethlehem to be of Davids tribe. Perhaps they created the Egypt story because Moses and Jacob went there. They hated Herodes, so he got a part in the story. Three magoi had to come to his birth, the birth of a tektonos' son. This is all fiction. Jesus became historical in the times of John the Baptist. Probably he was a follower of him. He was against the jewish establishment and probably against the Roman occupation. He cared about the jewish groups at the border of the society. At the end he personally failed and died at the cross. That's all. His fortune was that Petrus and Paulus brought the ideas of Jesus (or perhaps their own visions) to non-Jewish groups and were successful.


Well...technically speaking virgins can conceive and bear children...

Jesus of Nazareth (7–2 BC/BCE — 26–36 AD/CE), per Wiki

Thus 7-2 is in the range of Herod.


A dead man can't try to kill a baby, but a alive man at 7-4 BC can, and if Jesus' birth correlates to one of those dates then it is quite possible that it did happen.


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Edited by es_bih - 12-Jan-2009 at 00:19

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 00:27
Originally posted by Truthisnotrelitive Truthisnotrelitive wrote:

so here is where i don't get it. If jesus is god(in complete oneness with the Divine All Powerful), and he establishes the new covenant, then why is another revelation of god necessary? Did god fail a second time in maintaining a global contract between himself and man, even though this one was according to him impossible to break and would last for all eternity? Was a third needed? But if Jesus is just a prophet as mentioned in the Quran, then why did he come. And on that note, if he was just a man inspired by god, yet he claimed to be god himself, the only two possible assumptions are he is a lying nut case or he is telling the truth. The is no middle ground. He either is the messiah or he isn't, and if he isn't, why does the Quran encourage its followers to read the teachings of a madman?
so I do my best to give a response. The Islam of Mohammed is based on the Jewish and Christian belief. It's like modern socialists. It was not all good what Marx, Engels and Lenin said but all in all they were right. It is the same here. Torah and Bible are Mohammed's base. If he denies them his religion would have lost its base. So the Koran does not break with them. It is the same with Jesus. In the OT it is said an eye for an eye. Jesus said show your right cheak if somebody is beating your left one. It is not important that it is completely different. And it is not important that Jesus shall be the messiah or the son of God. BTW in the bible everybody is called son of god a many times. So Jesus' words are interpretable. So Jesus is not a mad man. He is a tool of Allah, misinterpreted by Christians. At least with Mohammed the only truth came into the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 00:33
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:


Jesus of Nazareth (7–2 BC/BCE — 26–36 AD/CE), per Wiki

Thus 7-2 is in the range of Herod.


A dead man can't try to kill a baby, but a alive man at 7-4 BC can, and if Jesus' birth correlates to one of those dates then it is quite possible that it did happen.
But you forgot the census in 6/7 AD. Nobody knows what cosmic situation is mentioned in the bible. So just reliable is the census and the death of Herodes. This are more than ten years. I think Herodes was very cold at the census and not interested in any birth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 01:17
I don't think we can comprehend the actual contemporary significance of any prophet - no matter who it was.
Jesus was only one in a long row of many prophets before and after him - and at the time of Muhammed, they were eagerly waiting for his (Jesus) return.
The question is really, what made these two so special compared to all the others?
 
Think of it in a modern setting - and no offence meant in any way...
Jesus would be considered a half mad religious fanatic, claiming he was the son of God and could heal people - no one would take him serious. Mohammed claiming he had a series of revelations while living in the cave, would be questioned about kind of mushrooms he had eaten.
 
Another interesting part is, that neither of them actually wrote anything. The scriptures we consider holy are all sources of other people with their own agenda, claiming that this is what the prophets said, this is what happened.
Is this what makes Jesus and Muhammed special compared to other "prophets" - that someone actually took time to write about their deeds?
 
Considering the fact, that we know how little we can trust different sources and authors, maybe it all should be taken with a huge grain of salt - to say the least.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 02:51
Actually the revelations that Muhammad brought are actually written down in real time, not by him as he had been illiterate, but by followers who were not, it is only that it was compiled fully after his death. That does not however denote that it was not written while he had been alive.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 04:17
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

But you forgot the census in 6/7 AD. Nobody knows what cosmic situation is mentioned in the bible. So just reliable is the census and the death of Herodes. This are more than ten years. I think Herodes was very cold at the census and not interested in any birth.

I don't really think his date of birth is that important. Considering the number of people alive now that don't know how old they are, 3 years here or there over 2000 years ago hardly matters.
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I don't think we can comprehend the actual contemporary significance of any prophet - no matter who it was.

That is all a matter of how much historical information we have. Considering we have considerable historical information about Muhammed (pbuh), I don't think it is too difficult to comprehend his contemporary significance. At least no more difficult than for any other historical figure.
Quote Mohammed claiming he had a series of revelations while living in the cave, would be questioned about kind of mushrooms he had eaten.

Muhammeds opponents frequently accused him of such things.
Quote Another interesting part is, that neither of them actually wrote anything. The scriptures we consider holy are all sources of other people with their own agenda, claiming that this is what the prophets said, this is what happened.
Is this what makes Jesus and Muhammed special compared to other "prophets" - that someone actually took time to write about their deeds?

The Quran was scribed by Zaid as narrated by Muhammed. Muhammeds copy, and Abu Bakrs copy were made during Muhammeds lifetime. The first publication of the Quran under the Khalif Usman was done by Zaid. However you are technically correct as the Quran is not about what Muhammed said, what happened, or about his deeds. This is something that is frequently not recognised by people who haven't read the Quran - it has very little to do with Muhammed. No Islamic ceremony either is about Muhammed*. Muhammed is only an example as to how to practice, and a teacher of the religion. What Muhammed said and did is in the Hadith, which wasn't written down until quite a while afterwards, but then is only a secondary document in Islam.
Quote Considering the fact, that we know how little we can trust different sources and authors, maybe it all should be taken with a huge grain of salt - to say the least.

Welcome to Hadith science


*Many people, especially in times gone past, do celebrate the Prophet's Birthday, but I do not consider this to be an Islamic holiday as such, because there is no religious significance to it. Similarly, people sometimes celebrate the birthdays of other Prophets as well.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12-Jan-2009 at 04:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 07:43
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

But you forgot the census in 6/7 AD. Nobody knows what cosmic situation is mentioned in the bible. So just reliable is the census and the death of Herodes. This are more than ten years. I think Herodes was very cold at the census and not interested in any birth.

I don't really think his date of birth is that important. Considering the number of people alive now that don't know how old they are, 3 years here or there over 2000 years ago hardly matters.
Well, it wouldn't be important if it were correct.  For example, if I say Columbus landed in America in the end of the 15th century, then I am right. It is everybody clear that I don't know the exact date or have no interest to give an exact one. But if I say Columbus landed in California in the year 1488, at a time when El Cid was king of Portugal, then it should be clear for everyone that I know nothing about Columbus exept the fact that he came to America. And all other things or perhaps just a lot I tell about Columbus must be handled with care and is probably wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 08:48
Oh, so your using the dispute over his birthday to highlight how little we know about Jesus?
That's a fair point in that case. Although my own grandmother doesn't know her birth date, and I do know quite a lot about her. So its not the best example.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12-Jan-2009 at 08:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 10:48
Jesus says "Eloi eloi lama sabaktani?" (Father father why did you left me?). The son speaks to Father. So i think (Father-son-holly spirit) are 3 different "person", or there is something schyzofrenic...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 11:01
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Oh, then I am sorry. I probably will never understand you true believers. It is fascinating, all the guys who know what God wants and who can hear God speaking on christian, jewish and muslim side. God is speaking to all three groups ( not to mention all the greater or little fractions) but unfortunately he can't decide to say the same things to them. Perhaps it is because God must be on old, old man.
Don't knock old men. More likely he's a teenager. Smile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 11:03
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

But you forgot the census in 6/7 AD. Nobody knows what cosmic situation is mentioned in the bible. So just reliable is the census and the death of Herodes. This are more than ten years. I think Herodes was very cold at the census and not interested in any birth.
 
There were quite a few Herods.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 11:14
Originally posted by erkut erkut wrote:

Jesus says "Eloi eloi lama sabaktani?" (Father father why did you left me?). The son speaks to Father. So i think (Father-son-holly spirit) are 3 different "person", or there is something schyzofrenic...
this quote certainly has tensions with the notion of the trinity as it does infer a greater separation of the parts. IIRC a particular group of Gnostics,  believed that Jesus/Joshua was inspired from his baptism (shown by the dove descending from heaven) until some time before the crucifixion. Explaining the problem so to speak, even if they never accepted  the extreme/Pauline view of Jesus actaully being  god on earth, which eventually became mainstream. I think this is very close to Islam, no?

The trinity part (along with the 'son of god' concept) will always make Christianity much more complex that it could of been. I get what the priest is saying on this, but try explaining that to an illiterate peasant back in the day. Skip pass too hell and brimstone vs heaven and clouds....


Edited by Leonidas - 12-Jan-2009 at 11:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 12:04
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

But you forgot the census in 6/7 AD. Nobody knows what cosmic situation is mentioned in the bible. So just reliable is the census and the death of Herodes. This are more than ten years. I think Herodes was very cold at the census and not interested in any birth.
 
There were quite a few Herods.
Yes, that's true. But bible means usually Herodes the Great and not Antipas. If they had mixed the two Herodes it doesn't makes it better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 16:43
I've always assumed the Herod of Jesus' birth was Archelaus and the Herod of the crucifixion and John the Baptist was Antipas. And later in Acts they are the Agrippas. Seems reasonable.
 
I can't see getting worked up over which Herod died when, when there was some Herod or other reigning from well before Jesus may have been born to well after he may have died.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 17:04
Yes, probably during Jesus' life several Heroded were in reign. But the writers of the Bible seem to have problems to differ. and again, the census was 6/7 AD. So whoever was ruling when Jesus was born there was no census. One idea is that the writers had to explain why Jesus was born in Bethlehem allthough Josef were from Nazareth. The new Messiah had to come from Bethlehem from the tribe of David. It is argued that Jesus was not of this tribe, so that the writers had to construct a relation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 18:55
I agree about the other problems.
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