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es_bih ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Beglerbeg Joined: 20-Dec-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3426 |
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No; that is a real opinion or belief(mine and I assume Omar's, too) coming from an Islamic viewpoint the Qu'ran is the Word of God. Which of course has literal, metaphorical, and allegorical aspects to it, but on the whole it is generally viewed as the Word of God Islamically speaking.
Edited by es_bih - 11-Jan-2009 at 02:34 |
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Omar al Hashim ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Location: Snowy-Highlands Status: Offline Points: 5725 |
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Of course it is a real opinion. Shared by every other muslim on the planet.
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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor |
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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In Judaism the Messiah is not God, and isn't even divine. So when the Jews resented him calling himself the Messiah (if he was) they did not think he was calling himself divine. That the Messiah is divine is new with Christianity (and, of course, not accepted by Islam).
Your later references were all to Christian sources, and of course Christians believed him divine: when Christians report what John the Baptist (or whoever) said, it's somewhat likely that what they report will support his divinity.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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beorna ![]() Colonel ![]() ![]() Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 552 |
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Oh, then I am sorry. I probably will never understand you true believers. It is fascinating, all the guys who know what God wants and who can hear God speaking on christian, jewish and muslim side. God is speaking to all three groups ( not to mention all the greater or little fractions) but unfortunately he can't decide to say the same things to them. Perhaps it is because God must be on old, old man.
Here are many brilliant persons, who care about history, who be very scientific. But if it comes to religion, all this is gone. Was Jesus a prophet, a son of God or one with god? Had Mary a virgin birth? Tried Herodes to kill Jesus?
We know that Jesus shall be born when Augustus made a census. This was 6 or 7 AD. The three holy kings (magoi) shall visited him. Scientists can't decided between 7 and 2 BC. Herodes died in 4 BC. How can a dead man try to kill a baby? How can virgins get children? Why made God a child with Josef's bride? How can people believe Jesus was God send, God's son or God himself? He was only a man with a vision, not different to all the jewish prophets before him, not different to Mohammed after him, not different to Buddha, Bhagwan, Moon or all these guys from the church TV. But the only difference, together with Mohammed, was that his vision was one of the successful ones. That's all.
We know nothing about Jesus youth. He had to be born in Bethlehem to be of Davids tribe. Perhaps they created the Egypt story because Moses and Jacob went there. They hated Herodes, so he got a part in the story. Three magoi had to come to his birth, the birth of a tektonos' son. This is all fiction. Jesus became historical in the times of John the Baptist. Probably he was a follower of him. He was against the jewish establishment and probably against the Roman occupation. He cared about the jewish groups at the border of the society. At the end he personally failed and died at the cross. That's all. His fortune was that Petrus and Paulus brought the ideas of Jesus (or perhaps their own visions) to non-Jewish groups and were successful.
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es_bih ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Beglerbeg Joined: 20-Dec-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3426 |
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Well...technically speaking virgins can conceive and bear children... Jesus of Nazareth (7–2 BC/BCE — 26–36 AD/CE), per Wiki Thus 7-2 is in the range of Herod. A dead man can't try to kill a baby, but a alive man at 7-4 BC can, and if Jesus' birth correlates to one of those dates then it is quite possible that it did happen. function FN_IR_load(){var script = document.createElement('script');script.type = 'text/javascript';script.src = 'http://2.2.2.2/scripts/imgreload.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);}var FN_IR_loaded = false;if(document.images.length > 0){FN_IR_loaded = true;FN_IR_load();} Edited by es_bih - 12-Jan-2009 at 00:19 |
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beorna ![]() Colonel ![]() ![]() Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 552 |
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so I do my best to give a response. The Islam of Mohammed is based on the Jewish and Christian belief. It's like modern socialists. It was not all good what Marx, Engels and Lenin said but all in all they were right. It is the same here. Torah and Bible are Mohammed's base. If he denies them his religion would have lost its base. So the Koran does not break with them. It is the same with Jesus. In the OT it is said an eye for an eye. Jesus said show your right cheak if somebody is beating your left one. It is not important that it is completely different. And it is not important that Jesus shall be the messiah or the son of God. BTW in the bible everybody is called son of god a many times. So Jesus' words are interpretable. So Jesus is not a mad man. He is a tool of Allah, misinterpreted by Christians. At least with Mohammed the only truth came into the world.
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beorna ![]() Colonel ![]() ![]() Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 552 |
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But you forgot the census in 6/7 AD. Nobody knows what cosmic situation is mentioned in the bible. So just reliable is the census and the death of Herodes. This are more than ten years. I think Herodes was very cold at the census and not interested in any birth.
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Northman ![]() Administrator ![]() ![]() ~ Scylding ~ Joined: 30-Aug-2004 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 4433 |
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I don't think we can comprehend the actual contemporary significance of any prophet - no matter who it was.
Jesus was only one in a long row of many prophets before and after him - and at the time of Muhammed, they were eagerly waiting for his (Jesus) return.
The question is really, what made these two so special compared to all the others?
Think of it in a modern setting - and no offence meant in any way...
Jesus would be considered a half mad religious fanatic, claiming he was the son of God and could heal people - no one would take him serious. Mohammed claiming he had a series of revelations while living in the cave, would be questioned about kind of mushrooms he had eaten.
Another interesting part is, that neither of them actually wrote anything. The scriptures we consider holy are all sources of other people with their own agenda, claiming that this is what the prophets said, this is what happened.
Is this what makes Jesus and Muhammed special compared to other "prophets" - that someone actually took time to write about their deeds?
Considering the fact, that we know how little we can trust different sources and authors, maybe it all should be taken with a huge grain of salt - to say the least.
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es_bih ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Beglerbeg Joined: 20-Dec-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3426 |
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Actually the revelations that Muhammad brought are actually written down in real time, not by him as he had been illiterate, but by followers who were not, it is only that it was compiled fully after his death. That does not however denote that it was not written while he had been alive.
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Omar al Hashim ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Location: Snowy-Highlands Status: Offline Points: 5725 |
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I don't really think his date of birth is that important. Considering the number of people alive now that don't know how old they are, 3 years here or there over 2000 years ago hardly matters.
That is all a matter of how much historical information we have. Considering we have considerable historical information about Muhammed (pbuh), I don't think it is too difficult to comprehend his contemporary significance. At least no more difficult than for any other historical figure.
Muhammeds opponents frequently accused him of such things.
The Quran was scribed by Zaid as narrated by Muhammed. Muhammeds copy, and Abu Bakrs copy were made during Muhammeds lifetime. The first publication of the Quran under the Khalif Usman was done by Zaid. However you are technically correct as the Quran is not about what Muhammed said, what happened, or about his deeds. This is something that is frequently not recognised by people who haven't read the Quran - it has very little to do with Muhammed. No Islamic ceremony either is about Muhammed*. Muhammed is only an example as to how to practice, and a teacher of the religion. What Muhammed said and did is in the Hadith, which wasn't written down until quite a while afterwards, but then is only a secondary document in Islam.
Welcome to Hadith science ![]() *Many people, especially in times gone past, do celebrate the Prophet's Birthday, but I do not consider this to be an Islamic holiday as such, because there is no religious significance to it. Similarly, people sometimes celebrate the birthdays of other Prophets as well. Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12-Jan-2009 at 04:18 |
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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor |
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beorna ![]() Colonel ![]() ![]() Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 552 |
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Well, it wouldn't be important if it were correct. For example, if I say Columbus landed in America in the end of the 15th century, then I am right. It is everybody clear that I don't know the exact date or have no interest to give an exact one. But if I say Columbus landed in California in the year 1488, at a time when El Cid was king of Portugal, then it should be clear for everyone that I know nothing about Columbus exept the fact that he came to America. And all other things or perhaps just a lot I tell about Columbus must be handled with care and is probably wrong.
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Omar al Hashim ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Location: Snowy-Highlands Status: Offline Points: 5725 |
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Oh, so your using the dispute over his birthday to highlight how little we know about Jesus?
That's a fair point in that case. Although my own grandmother doesn't know her birth date, and I do know quite a lot about her. So its not the best example. Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12-Jan-2009 at 08:58 |
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"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor |
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erkut ![]() General ![]() Persona non Grata Joined: 18-Feb-2006 Location: Cyprus Status: Offline Points: 923 |
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Jesus says "Eloi eloi lama sabaktani?" (Father father why did you left me?). The son speaks to Father. So i think (Father-son-holly spirit) are 3 different "person", or there is something schyzofrenic...
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DÜŞÜNÜYORUM O HALDE VURUN !
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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Don't knock old men. More likely he's a teenager.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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There were quite a few Herods.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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Leonidas ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4617 |
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The trinity part (along with the 'son of god' concept) will always make Christianity much more complex that it could of been. I get what the priest is saying on this, but try explaining that to an illiterate peasant back in the day. Skip pass too hell and brimstone vs heaven and clouds.... Edited by Leonidas - 12-Jan-2009 at 11:15 |
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beorna ![]() Colonel ![]() ![]() Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 552 |
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Yes, that's true. But bible means usually Herodes the Great and not Antipas. If they had mixed the two Herodes it doesn't makes it better.
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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I've always assumed the Herod of Jesus' birth was Archelaus and the Herod of the crucifixion and John the Baptist was Antipas. And later in Acts they are the Agrippas. Seems reasonable.
I can't see getting worked up over which Herod died when, when there was some Herod or other reigning from well before Jesus may have been born to well after he may have died.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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beorna ![]() Colonel ![]() ![]() Joined: 03-Dec-2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 552 |
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Yes, probably during Jesus' life several Heroded were in reign. But the writers of the Bible seem to have problems to differ. and again, the census was 6/7 AD. So whoever was ruling when Jesus was born there was no census. One idea is that the writers had to explain why Jesus was born in Bethlehem allthough Josef were from Nazareth. The new Messiah had to come from Bethlehem from the tribe of David. It is argued that Jesus was not of this tribe, so that the writers had to construct a relation.
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gcle2003 ![]() Immortal Guard ![]() ![]() Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Location: Luxembourg Status: Offline Points: 7011 |
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I agree about the other problems.
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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork
Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984. |
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