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Forum LockedWho are the Pashtun's the decendents of?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who are the Pashtun's the decendents of?
    Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 00:50
I know that out of the Iranian groups:

Ancient Persians--->Modern Persians and Tajiks
Medes--->Kurds, Azari's, Baloch's(debatable)
Alans--->Ossetians
Pashtuns---->????

So who are they the decendents of?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 01:15
Baktrians.
 
And Tajiks are descendants of Sogds not Persians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 01:17
not really sure, because pashtuns also are not decendants of one people. some pashtuns tribes in Pakistan claim to have been living in that area for the last 5000 years so that is before even bactaria existed. Not exactly sure where they came from.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 06:42
Pashtuns are theorized to be descendants of a mix of Iranic nomads:  Scythians, Tocharians, Iranian Huns, and the settled Indo-Aryans.
 
Indo-Europeans->Branch of Tocharians->Ephtalite Huns>Khalaj Turks>Khalji Pashtuns
 
Indo-Europeans->Scythians->Inhabitants of Pakhtara (Bactria)-Pactyans of Greek Inscriptions in the vicinity of Gandhara >Pakhtuns
 
Indo-Europeans->Aryans->Indo-Aryans->Ashvakan->Avakan->Avghan->Afghans
 
 
--
 
Much of research is done through similarity in names and places with the people who inhabit them.  Historically the Afghans were converted to Islam during the reign of Mahmud Ghaznawi, and sometime after that period they merged with the Khalaj Turks and the Ghorids, both of which have mysterious backgrounds.   They also assimilated Kafiri tribes, Baraki (Urmuri), Baluch, Pashai,  and Wanetsi speakers, all of which are Indo-Iranian or Indo-Aryan.


Edited by Afghanan - 03-Jan-2008 at 06:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 18:05
That's a very good answer to the question as, most of my research regarding the topic as also ended up with those points + the point of Ten Lost Tribes of Jews.
 
They are still researching to check whether Afghans really are one of the Ten lost tribes or not.
 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 19:43
The only tribe that has some similarities (and that is by name only) is the Afridi tribe that lives in the Khyber region.
 
Some say Afridi, pronounced Apridi by them, is the modern version of the old tribe mentioned by Herodotus - Aparutae.  Aparu being an old name of "Hebrew."  Sir Olaf Caroe mentioned this in his book - "The Pathans." 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 23:42
some thing interesting about pashtuns
 
This is an ancient hindu saying: "Oh Lord Shiva, save us from the claw of the tiger, the fang of the cobra and the vengeance of the Afghan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2008 at 19:33

Pashtuns/Pakhtuns were probably the decendents of ancient Pactyans, as Herodotus says, Pactyans lived in the east of the Persian empire (modern Paktia and Paktika provinces of Afghanistan).

As I said here: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22148&PN=15 , Pactyans could be related to Picts (Painted or tattooed people), an ancient people who lived in the north Scotland.

We all know about Kalash/Kafar/Nuristani peoples in the east of Afghanistan and the north of Pakistan, as you read here: http://www.pilotguides.com/destination_guide/asia/pakistan/kalash_choimus_festival.php they often paint their faces with ink (replacing earlier customs of facial tattooing).

The Old Persian word for "Picture" is "Patikara" (Old Iranian words: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/opeol-EI-X.html), the Modern Persian word is "Paykar" which also means "Body&Face".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 17:39
The Kafiris and Nuristanis were pushed to the mountains by the invading Afghans and Muslims.   They used to occupy parts of the Kabul Valley, Laghman valley, and most of Konar, Panjsher.
 
As for facial tattooing goes, this is still being practiced by Pashtun nomads (mostly of which are Khalji nomads) and Eastern Pashtun tribes around the region of Khost and Paktia.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 19:56
Hello to you all
 
That girl above, the blond one, looks more Swedish than Afghani. This is the second time I saw a very european like Afghani. Some year ago an Afghani worker prayed at our mosque and the only way you knew he was not european was his dress, he wore an Afghan dress, If you saw him you could have swore he was one of those Viking kings of old with his huge blond beard and tall stature. I asked a friend of him later about the Pashtuns, he was one, and he claimed that they were in fact Arabs who immigrated after the conquest. I read a lebanese scholar who pointed huge similarities between local myths of the Pashtuns and Jewish and Semetic folklore and went on to say that at least a good part of the current Pashtuns are indeed of semetic stock. What do you think Cyrus, did some of the remaining Jews became attached to the Pashtuns, since they were already organised in tribes.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 06:44
These are pics of Pashtun. As you can see many of them look very European.


Old Pathan warrior



Man from Afghanistan (Pathan?)



"Modern" Pathan warrior



Various Pashtun males



Famous Pashtun "Girl to Woman" from Nat. Geographic



Pashtun girls



Pashtun schoolboys



Pashtun woman[/QUOTE]

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 06:49
I found a gallery of Pushtun in flickr.com. I am not sure if all of them are Pushtun. Some of them look like Slav to me.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41782477@N00/sets/72157600893969323/

kandahar%20roadkandahareepashtunKandahareyKandahareyyKandaharkid:inlatviaKandaharlochKandaharquartKandaharquarterKandaharquatrKhan%20DarkhanlalzankhaylLalKotallowgarmardaniMardanismypushtoonmyselfandthepakpathanPardaiz_sirat-%20Kandaharpashtun%20swatpashtun%20tochi%204pashtun%20tochipashtun%20tochi1pashtun%20tochi2pashtun%20tochi3Pashtun:tochispashtunsinnycpashtunzaipathan%20dera%20barakhel_jpgpathan%20frompathanpathanpkPeshPeshawar,%20blue:grey%20eyezPeshawareyPicture%204Picture%205Pushtun%20UKQuetta%20Pashtunsquettared%20KarachiRedhead%20PakhtunShashmatSwatiUrmarzayWazir%20regionswest%20frontiertypical%20persianKohistani,%20tanned


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 07:29
They all could be Pakhtun.
And I have seen some very dark Pakhtuns as well. Skin tone varies a lot here, even in families.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 13:50
Ŗta (Eternal Law) in Sanskrit can be changed to "Arta" & "Ratu" in Persian and "Ata/Aša" in Avestan becuase "r" with a dot below it can be read as "r", "ra", "ar" and "a", there could be the same rule about "Saka" and "Ashka/Ashkuz" (Parthians) and also "Pakhtun" and "Apgtan" (arabicized as "Afghan")
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 16:18
Originally posted by Killabee

These are pics of Pashtun. As you can see many of them look very European.




"Modern" Pathan warrior

 
This guy is not Pashtun, he is a French aid worker.  I've seen this picture before.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 16:22
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello to you all
 
That girl above, the blond one, looks more Swedish than Afghani. This is the second time I saw a very european like Afghani. Some year ago an Afghani worker prayed at our mosque and the only way you knew he was not european was his dress, he wore an Afghan dress, If you saw him you could have swore he was one of those Viking kings of old with his huge blond beard and tall stature. I asked a friend of him later about the Pashtuns, he was one, and he claimed that they were in fact Arabs who immigrated after the conquest. I read a lebanese scholar who pointed huge similarities between local myths of the Pashtuns and Jewish and Semetic folklore and went on to say that at least a good part of the current Pashtuns are indeed of semetic stock. What do you think Cyrus, did some of the remaining Jews became attached to the Pashtuns, since they were already organised in tribes.
 
Al-Jassas
 

This classical theory is based on Niamatulla's Makhzan-i-Afghani and Hamidullah Mustaufi's Tarikh-i-Guzida: one of Prophet Ibrahim's descendents, Talut (or Saul) had two sons, one of whom was named Irmiya or Jeremia. Irmiya had a son named Afghan, who is supposed to have given the name to the Afghan people. Tareekh-e-Sher Shahi states that Bakht Nasr who invaded Jerusalem and destroyed it, expelled Jewish tribes, including sons of Afghan, from their homeland. During the days of the Babylonian captivity when the Jews were scattered, one of the tribes settled in the Hari Rud area of modern (south) Afghanistan. Pathan legend states that they accepted Islam during the time of the Prophet when a group of their kinsmen (Jews) living in Arabia sent word to them that the true Prophet of God as prophesied in their scriptures had appeared in Mecca. The Afghans, the story goes, sent a delegation to Arabia headed by one Imraul Qais who met the Prophet, embraced Islam, came back and converted the entire tribe to the new religion. The Prophet was so pleased with Qais that he gave him the name of Abdur Rashid, called him Malik (king) and Pehtan (keel or rudder of a ship) for showing his people the path of Islam.

This theory was propagated by Jewish scholars, but most modern scholars reject this was created by Afghans to explain their forgotten pagan past.  The only tribe of Afghans that have some similarity to Jews are the Apridi tribes of the Khyber region.  Apridi has a name that is very similar to the "Aparutae"  Aparu, being the regional name for Hebrews in ancient times.  This tribe was mentioned by Herodotus as well.  If there were any lost Israelite tribes in Afghanistan, they would soon be swept under the wind by massive migrations by Central Asian nomads from the steppes, most prominent of all the Sakae.



Edited by Afghanan - 08-Jan-2008 at 16:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 17:18
Although most of those pictures of people look like Pashtuns, I think whoever this Person was who compiled these pictures went for the most striking phenotypes.  If somebody went to Afghanistan or Western Pakistan expecting to see a countryside full of pale faced blondies and blue eyes will be dissapointed.   The average Pashtun looks more like these guys and girls:
 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 18:03

Originally posted by Afghanan

Although most of those pictures of people look like Pashtuns, I think whoever this Person was who compiled these pictures went for the most striking phenotypes.  If somebody went to Afghanistan or Western Pakistan expecting to see a countryside full of pale faced blondies and blue eyes will be dissapointed.   The average Pashtun looks more like these guys and girls:

 

 

 

 


 


 


 



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed... Afghanan...  well done :)

 

I think this type of ''thinking' is a spill over effect from hinduism's ''colour distinction'' and the preference for fairer skin prevalent in South Asia.. with the exception of Karachi particularly amongst the Muslim refugee who’ve come from india, The issue of colour in the rest of Pakistan and Afghanistan is not so significant as tribal, ethnic relations are more important and the overall impact of Islam has encouraged a more egalitarian society irrespective of phenotypic expression and skin tone.

 

I also think many who prop up this false impression of Pashtuns will be dissapointed to know that there are also dark Pashtuns as well, but irrespective of how they look, they still carry strong Pashtun phenotypic qualities vis-a-vis their features (nose, physique, etc...), and their demeanor, mannerism, language and tribal lineage will demonstrate this

 

While some Pashtun's do have blond hair and blue eyes, they are the exception rather than the rule, infact you will find more traits like this in Parts of north east Afghanistan in the province of Nuristan and in Northern  Pakistan in Chitral as well as in the Northern Area as such features where quite common in the Dardic tribes of the north.  I have even come across blonde and blue eyed Iranians, Sindhis, Panjabi's, Tajiks as well as Baloch, again they were the exception rather than the rule.

 

About the ''Origins'' of the Pashtuns,  I am of the belif that they are an ''orginal'' people in that they have inhabited the eastern plateau of the Iranian plate up to the Indus river since a very early time.

 

As mentioned, the Afridi tribe are known to have been in the Khyber Pass when Alexander crossed through and that was in 326 B.C.

 

While people have come  up with numerous theories of their possible origin, I believe the Pashtuns to be a an original stock that have absorbed countless peoples and/or incorporated various peoples into their Greater Pashtun lineage (eg. Huns, Turks, jewish, Panjabi/Baloch/Sindhi - due to their proximity along the Indus and Pashtunkwa, Tajik, Hazara (Wardak) etc...) .   No recorded foreign force ever fully subjugated the Pashtun and would have most likely come to an agreement with them.  Even the Mogul emperor Babur on his quest to conquer south asia had to enter into a marriage agreement before being allowed to pass through.  This story has been repeated many a times.   I dont accept the theory that they are somehow an offshoot of the lost tribes of Israel, but what I will accept is that it is possible that one of the tribes may have been absorbed into of the the Pashtun tribes (which they encountered and most likely given shelter to(Pashtun hospitality) and that tribe today may have some genetic contributions from them. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 18:47
MarcoPolo,
 
I myself do not believe the lost Israeli tribe theory because it has many holes in it, and it doesn't take into account the two millenia of Steppe migration and Middle Eastern Migration into the region.
 
The tribe I come from were and some are still nomads.  We are part of the greater Suleimonkhel tribe, which is a Ghalji/Khalji tribe.  This tribe was known to be Turkic, and it's older history points to them being part of the White Hun confederation, and even earlier to the confederation of Tocharians and Saka that migrated to Afghanistan.
 
When I did a Genographic study, my Y-chomosome study pointed to R1a1, which is the diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker, not a Semitic marker.  My results can be found here:
 
 
I can believe that there are some Arab (Sayed) elements in the Afghan phenotype (after Islam) , I find it hard to find anybody to share semitic lineage dating back to the expulsion of Jews from Babylon.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 01:21
pashtuns are indeed very beautiful. We have some really beautiful pashtun girls in our university.
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