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Forum LockedWhere is the mountain of Qaf?

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07-Dec-2005 at 06:32

http://onlineislamicstore.com/b5725.html :

To believe in the unseen is the Major part of Faith. Because Hell is unseen, Eden is unseen, Angels are unseen, the punishment of the grave are unseen, even Allah, and the Lord of the Universe is unseen. Traditions bears testimony to the fact that the jinn governed the earth before man.

http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/talkislam_1871_152 7964276 :

According to the famous historian Tabari, the Prophet of Islam is reported to have said:

"Allah created the mountain Qaf all around the Earth. It is called stake of the Earth, as it is said in the Quran, 'And the mountains as pegs?' This world is in the middle of the mountain of Qaf as the finger is in the middle of the ring. No man can reach there, for he needs to spend four months in the darkness, In this mountain there is no sun, no moon no stars and it is so blue that the azure colour of the sky is the brightness of the mountain Qaf that reflects on the sky, and it appears this colour, If this was not so, the sky would not be blue. All the mountains that are seen in this world are from the mountain Qaf. ...

Qaf is the arabicized form of the Persian word "Gap" which means "Unknown", it is interesting to know that the oldest mention of an Unknown Mountain is in an inscription of Shapur I (241-272 AD) for the mounatins between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. He has mentioned it Gapkuh ("Unknown Mountain" Gap=Unkown & Kuh=Mountain) = Arabic Qafqaz = Russian KAVKAZ = English Caucasus

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2005 at 07:16

also Turkish kafkaz. But interesting indeed

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 08:25

hmm first time i hear this story.

but i checked the Quran 78:7 and checked the books of Tabari, Qurtubi and Ibn Katheer and they didnt mention Qaf.

the mountains refered to in that Verse are all mountains in general not specific one.

also that Hadith wasn't mentioned in Tabari's Tafseer for that Verse.

if you have more sources it would be better,
also the letter Qaf in Arabic which was the begining of chapter 50 is not referd to the mountain Qaf.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 09:02
There is a cave called qafeh where many paleolithic human and neanderthal remains have been found stretching back 500,000 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 09:13

I don't know about that specific mountain but check this out.

THE QURAN ON MOUNTAINS
 

Professor Siaveda , one of the  best known marine geologists from Japan. He is also one of the most famous scientists in the  world. When he was asked about mountains and whether they were  firmly rooted in the earth. He replied and said:

The fundamental difference between continental mountains and the oceanic mountains lies in its material. Continental mountains are made essentially by sediments, whereas the oceanic mountains are made of volcanic rocks. Continental mountains were formed by compressional forces, whereas the oceanic mountains were formed by extensional forces. But the common denominator on both mountains are that they have roots to support the mountains. In the case of continental mountains, light-low density material from the mountain is extended down into the earth as a root. In the case of oceanic mountains, there is aso light material supporting the mountain as a root, but in the case of oceanic mountain this material is not light because the composition is light, but it is hot, therefore expanded somewhat. But from the viewpoint of densities, they are doing the same job of supporting the mountains. Therefore, the function of the roots are to support the mountains according to the law of Archimedes.

Professor Siaveda described the shape of all mountains whether they are on land or in the sea as being in the shape of a wedge. Could anyone during the time of Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) have known of the shape of these mountains? Could anyone imagine that the solid massive mountain that he sees before him actually extends deep into the earth and has a root as scientists assure. A large number of geography books when discussing mountains, only describe that part which is on the surface of the earth. This is because they are not written by specialists in geology, but modern science informs us about it and Allah says in the Quraan:

And the mountains as pegs. (Quraan 78:7).

We asked Professor Sievada whether the mountains have a function in establishing the crust of the earth. He said that this has not yet been discovered and established by scientists. In view of the reply we searched and inquired about this and we found out that many geologists gave the same reply, except for a few. Among those few are the authors of this book, entitled This book is considered as a basic reference text in many  universities throughout the world. One of the authors of this book is Frank Press.

He is   currently the President of the Academy of Sciences in USA. Previously, he was science advisor to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. What does he say in his book? He illustrates  the mountains in a wedge like shape where the mountain itself is but a small part of the whole  whose root is deeply entrenched in the ground. Dr. Press writes on the functions of  "The Earth". the  mountains and states that they play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. This  is exactly how the Quraan described mountains 14 centuries ago.

Allah said: And the mountains Has He firmly fixed. (Quraan 79:32). And He said: And the mountains as pegs. (Quraan 78:7).  And said: And he has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you. (Quraan 16:15).

But who could have informed Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) about this? We asked Professor Siaveda this question: What is your opinion on what you have seen in the Quraan with regard to the secrets of the Universe, which scientists only discovered now?  His answer was: I think it seems to me very, very mysterious, almost unbelievable. I really think if what you have said is true, the book is really a very remarkable book, I agree.  Yes, what can scientists say. They cannot attribute the knowledge revealed to Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) by Allah and contained in the Quraan to human beings or to any scientific authority in our times, because all scientists were unaware of all these secrets. Moreover, all the humanity could not have any explanation but to attribute that knowledge to some extra-terrestrial force. Yes, it is a revelation from Allah which he sent to his servant..

http://www.quran.org/science/QURANMOUNTAIN.htm



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 13:33
Mount Qaf is the boundary between our world and the land of dreams and fairy tales.
Always try to be as radical as reality itself. - Lenin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 14:10

The concept of a mountain as a peg is not far fetched in the primitive and superstitious psyche of a post classical religious philosopher.

Ancient Greek scientists thought that organic matter was made from millions of miniature scales like scale armour, therefore they guessed the existence of cells, they must have been bestowed by Allah's divinity too, I suppose.

It's about as great a scientific quranic revelation as the prophet knowing that a man impregnated a woman with sperm. 

The quran also says that the earth is flat.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 14:19

Zagros, the Koran does not say the Earth is flat (nor does Sura 9-11 predict any doom to NY City). Links if you will please!

As Beylerbeyi stated, much of what the ancients had to say can literally be called 'fairy tales' by todays standards.

The mountain as pegs knowledge is scientific as it is intuitive though. If you want to discredit it then proofs and links would be helpfull.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 17:24

Good post Seko regarding the Quranic verse of 78:8.

Zagros is not as simple as "a man impregnated a woman with sperm", it is much more complex to detailed descriptions of each of these cycles. It is not me and you who can decide it is a miracle or not only, but scientists too. You can find more about the others by just googling and it should suffice your quest if you are interested.

Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore (click here to listen to his testimony) is one of the worlds most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages.  This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person.  Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada

Regarding Qaf mountains Tabari reference, I tried hard finding the Hadith and I couldn't. I will check other references in accordance to the pages Cyrus posted.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 10:44

The things the Quran says can be applied to anything by their sheer vagueness.

I am not quite sure what to make of this one though:

The sun rises and sets at particular places on a flat earth. At the westernmost point on earth, the sun sets in a muddy spring.

18:86, 90

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 12:51

It is always safe to render the verse to its original script. The verse of Zagros is from the Cave Surah (chapter 18, verse 86):

(18,86)

as I read the verse, I cannot locate where it does say "on a flat earth". I looked into three well known english translations and I get the following too:

YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

Link Source

None of those meaning translations to English talks about the Earth being flat.

 I went too to read Ibn-Katheer meaning translation which is a very old translation of the Quran and no one can claim it will be modified to correct any interpretation for nowadays. In Ibn Katheer translation, he says that Zu Al Qarneen (we don't know who is he exactly) has walked west toward the sunset direction to the maximum of its time till he reached a muddy land. Some say "hami'ah" meaning "clay or muddy" and some say "hami'ah" meaning a hot place. He either has reached a shore of a sea or a muddy spring. Whatever he reached, it was the maximum toward the west and there, he found those tribe or people.

In fact, Quran was not only silent about earth shape, but it confirms it is shapped like an egg! Not a circle, or a ball, but an egg. Exactly as modern science and we know that earth shape is not exactly round. So, i find it hard that the Quran itself will go back to contradict this and say the Earth is flat.  The verse of the earth shape says:

"30. Wal-arda bada dhalika dahaha" 79:30

Dahya in Arabic is ostrich's egg, so there is no way the earth is flat.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 13:31

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/ceps/etp/earth/img/EarthAS17 .jpg

^ The Earth

http://www.adirondackreflections.com/images/ostricheggbg.jpg

^An ostrich egg (

Udhi'ya
)

The Earth is not the same shape as an ostrich egg, both may be oval but they are completely diffferent proportions,.  I am sure there were better ways for Allah to describe the Earth's shape than to call it an ostrich egg which does not describe its shape in the slightest.

And what exactly is the literal translation of that last sentence?

I found it as this:

And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse); 

(http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_in_islam.htm)

He extended to a wide expanse? Ovals don't have a width and their expanse is spherical and are measured in diameters.

Quote Whatever he reached, it was the maximum toward the west and there, he found those tribe or people.

There is no maximum to the West if the world is spherical.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 18:45

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

The Earth is not the same shape as an ostrich egg, both may be oval but they are completely diffferent proportions
 

Arabic  word for oval is "baydhawi" translated literally "eggy-shape". So, if the Quran said the earth is an exact ball round always, it would have been a mistake since the center of the earth is 80 km wider than from the diameter from northern pole to the southern pole.

If you think God could have used a better description, then it is a language issue and Arabic language scholars should discuss that. Remember that it spoke of the language of Quraish, so we cannot apply today's detailed definitions to that time. It used the best description of its time known to those the Quran has been revealed to in their language.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

 I found it as this:

And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse); 

(http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_in_islam.htm)

He extended to a wide expanse? Ovals don't have a width and their expanse is spherical and are measured in diameters.

The same website you presented offers the explaination you are seeking, just scroll down to the middle, when it starts saying:

"There is a mistranslation:   In Noble Verse 79:30, the Arabic word "dahaha" doesn't mean extended (to a wide expanse).  The word literally mean formed in "round shape" or "egg shape" as clearly proven below in this article.  Also, In Noble Verse 79:31, "ma-aha" was translated as "moisture" as shown above.  "ma-aha" in Arabic literally means "its water".  The more accurate translation is: "He draweth out Therefrom its water And its pasture". "

Also if it is so clear that earth is flat in the Quran, we would have not seen scholars who uses Quran to confirm it is a round shape in 1328 and prior. From the same website you presented Zagors (source):

"Ibn Taymiyah (d. 728 H / 1328 CE), may Allah be merciful with him, in his famous treatise, ar-Risalah al-'Arshiyah, refutes the position of the neo-Platonic philosophers who identified Allah's Throne with the ninth celestial sphere (Majmu'ul-Fatawa, Vol. 6, pp. 546-ff). In the course of his response, Ibn Taymiyah discusses the question of the earth is it round or flat? He writes:

[That] celestial bodies are round (istidaaratul-aflaak) - as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians (ahlul-hay'ah wal-hisab) - it is [likewise] the statement of the scholars of the Muslims; as Abul-Hasan ibn al-Manaadi, Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm, Abul-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi and others have quoted: that the Muslim scholars are in agreement [that all celestial bodies are round]. Indeed Allah - taala - has said: And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak (The Noble Quran, 21:33)
Ibn Abbas says: A falaka like that of a spinning wheel"

If Ibn Taymiyah can conclude that earth is not flat in 1328 AD, then we shall get it too in 2005 AD and even better than him. I don't think Ibn Taymiyah was forced to accept that earth is not flat by a link from Wikipedia or an article in the National Geographic magazine neither he was taught it was a proven scientifical fact that cannot be disputed.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

There is no maximum to the West if the world is spherical

There is a maximum to what Zu Alqarnain seeked to be the west. That is why it said he reached either a sea shore or a muddy area. Meaning, the limitation to his travel and not the earth, otherwise, The quran would have said either he circled earth or he stopped on an edge of a flat earth. Neither those two scenarios are presented.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFV Master Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 19:25
Isn't Qaf is Iran?
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