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Forum LockedWhat would byzantium have to do to survive?

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Count Belisarius View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What would byzantium have to do to survive?
    Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 02:58
What would the Byzantine Empire have to do to survive? and how would history be affected? whats your opinion? 

Edited by Count Belisarius - 18-Sep-2008 at 16:38


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 12:07

I think that Roman empire lost most of its vital parts with the Islamic conquests. They have retained anatolia, balkans, south Italy, Sicily. The question is which part of the remaining empire would be crucial for her survival. Balkans were demolished with avar, slaic and bulgar invasion(we know that slav tribes even reached morea). Bulgarian kingdom contested in balkan hegemony with roman empire and they were successful for a while. However they regained balkans and ended the first bulgarian kingdom.  My opinion is anatolia, the remaining part  of the empire was the heart of the eastern roman empire. It provided enough money, men, supply to the roman empire for regaining balkans. With the loss of Anatolia no other provinces could take the place of this province. Slowly regression ended with final conquest of constantinople.

So let us think what would hinder the destruction of the roman empire.
 
1- Protecting anatolia from occupation(major event).  After Manzikert a civil war was really terrible for their vitality. The turks reached aegean sea
2-I think with calling westerners for help was a major mistake. Crusades destructed the empire. May be the romans could fight the turks with much more success and chase the turks(?). 
3- They were really at a disadvantageous position(. Muslims and turks from east, turks and slavs from north, arabs from south , Latins from west. They really stand for centuries against this situation with their skills, quality and warfare.  
4-They needed good reputation in west. May be good relations with papacy.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 16:58
I agree anatolia was the empire's principle recruiting ground, and horse breeding ground, and what about armenia? from what I've read it wasd rich in iron which was a nessesary component for any army of that time, and how would they be able to keep the lands that they reconquered, under Justinian?.     


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2008 at 20:57

Probably if they simply didn't have the civil wars it would have been fine.

 
The Balkan slavic and bulgar migrations I don't think were that big of a deal and both were assimilated into the Roman (Byzantine) culture religious wise. If they could have strengthened those alliances it would have kept a strong barrier between them and the western powers that would like to see Constantinople fall. First and foremost I think it was the west that allowed the conquests of islam to further into its territory.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2008 at 22:14
Suppose they could reconquer some of gaul and england and then expand into the east, destroy the persians, and conquer the region that Alexander the maniac conquered. and do you think they could expand up north into germania and down into Axum? what would they need to do that?  

Edited by Count Belisarius - 18-Sep-2008 at 16:39


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2008 at 22:22
I think expanding into all directions is bad. I'd have used the people in the Balkans to form a buffer state and focus on the middle east. Gaul and Germania as well as Hispania were more or less lost, but i'd try to pit one tribe against another until they weakened themselves. I've found Britain to be more or less pointless.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2008 at 22:31
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

Suppose they could reconquer some gaul and england and then expand into the east, destroy the persians, and conquer the region that Alexander the maniac conquered. and do you think they could expand up north into germania and down into Axum? what would they need to do that?  

Confused You have a strange speculations. They ( I assume you talk about Byzantines) could not do that because they -
1) didn't have money
2) didn't have manpower
3) didn't have political willingness to embark such campaigns
4) later Byzantines weren't the most martial people in region, they had to depend heavily on mercenaries
5) They were surrounded by strong states
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2008 at 23:05
I know, but this is a what if thread, and I'm talking about their early days before their decline, when they were still powerful. and you could use britain and scotland and ireland, and mabye iceland too, if they had men left over to conquer it, as bases for overseas expansion. 

Edited by Count Belisarius - 28-Jul-2008 at 23:10


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2008 at 04:18
The Byzantines would have needed to stop fighting civil wars after each emperor died, stop persecuting 'heretical' schools of Christianity, and basically stop allowing the Church to have so much affect on the state and politics. They needed strong, pragmatic, and somewhat secular rulers to look at the Empire's situation and rally what was left to hold on, and possibly expand.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote EmperorTrebizond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2008 at 23:29
a few things, they definitely should never have centralized their military so much under the Angeloi dynasty. One of the things that made the Komnenos Dynasty powerful was the decentralized nature of the ancient Theme system which favored the skills of generals using local militias and mercenaries rather then dictates from Constantinople by the Emperor. The lose of Asia Minor was a deathsend for the Byzantine Empire, now lacking the manpower or money for a effective mercenary army though the Palaiologans did quite well given the situation during the post-4th crusade period up until the fall in 1453.
May the Empire of Constantine rise again...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2008 at 01:09
Originally posted by Adalwolf

The Byzantines would have needed to stop fighting civil wars after each emperor died, stop persecuting 'heretical' schools of Christianity, and basically stop allowing the Church to have so much affect on the state and politics. They needed strong, pragmatic, and somewhat secular rulers to look at the Empire's situation and rally what was left to hold on, and possibly expand.
 
I'm sorry but this is just a weak point IMHO. The heretics were just as likley to start fights inside the Empire then the Moslems did outside of the Empire. There was no compermise. And the reason the empire was so strong was also because it worked together with the church to keep everything unified.
 
If it wasn't for the West and the crusades messing up the Empire I think they'd had eventually stalled and even manage to push back the Moslems. They did it before with the Arabs and would eventually do the same with the Seljuks or latter on the Ottomans. They could hold on and crush them between their armies and the Mongols.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2008 at 13:48

Originally posted by Count Belisarius

I know, but this is a what if thread, and I'm talking about their early days before their decline, when they were still powerful. and you could use britain and scotland and ireland, and mabye iceland too, if they had men left over to conquer it, as bases for overseas expansion. 

Iceland? Why not Greenland? Or Siberia? 

This seems to go beyond 'Alternativce History'...Confused

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 16:49
I think it would be fairly easy to expand overseas into the west since Belisarius had reconquered most of the lost western provinces, with the west taken care of, they could then take over the east and perhaps go farther than alexander did and the reason they would take back the isles and take icland and greenland is for the same reasons the vikings did 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 08:36

First of all, some very compitent emperors, with less ursuping of dynasties.



Edited by Penelope - 20-Sep-2008 at 08:38
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 14:37

Well, no. 

Thinking that Roman oars would be at Greenland is quite foolish. This is fiction, and not alternative history. Rome could never have gone as far as Alexander, or the Vikings. And there are reasons for it. Even with all the money in the world, all the troops they'd need, they wouldn't. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 16:21
How come? oh and by the way this thread is in historical amusement not alternative historyWink just thought you'd want to knowSmile 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 15:42
Pure logics, mate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 15:53
SmileWell what are the logics man? tell me I want to knowSmile


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 04:50
I beleive that the Byzantines should have relied less on mercenaries, Niccollo Machivelli always scorned the use of mercenaries. I always beleived that Christianity sort of mellowed as it grew older the spirits of Byzantines as it did the Western empire. They lost what their ancestors on the banks of the Tiber had, Islam being a young religion was full of spirit that filled the hearts of Arab tribesman to conquer all of the middle east. They eventually drove the Byzantines to their very own walls of Constaninople several times. And after a lon struggle the inevitable fall of the Byzantine empire.

To sum things up what they could have done was

1) Reestablish relations with the Pope at a much earlier time
2) Hang on to Anatolia at all costs
3) no generals named Romanus lol
4) better leaders, and more of a Republic that ancient Rome had
5) Allies (coincides with 1)
6) and for Medieval 2 total war better spearmen (I mean c'mon)

Edited by Sun Tzu - 29-Sep-2008 at 04:57
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Post Options Post Options   Quote EmperorTrebizond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 05:00
So you're basically taking word for word Edward Gibbon's view as described in his masterpiece, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.
May the Empire of Constantine rise again...
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