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Forum LockedWhat is the true religion?

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 13:14

I said in this thread:

Quote "Good in a relgion is that it says follow your conscience, not what a religion dictates!"

and Omar al Hashim replied:

Quote I don't think any religion says follow your conscience. Your conscience may be mislead by the devil.

Do you agree with him?

"Follow the true religion which is your conscience (your godly nature), nothing can change it, that is the eternal and stable Religion (has ever existed) but most people don't know it!" (Quran 30:30)



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 05-Nov-2008 at 13:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 15:14
I don't see what else anyone can do.
 
Unfortunately not everyone has a conscience that prevents him doing harm to others. So crime and therefore punishment will always be with us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 15:25
In Romans Paul's epistle (chapter 2), he says that those who haven't had the Law (of the Judaic religion), meaning the pagans, will be judged by their conscience:

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.





Also, in Eastern Christianity, the voice of the moral conscience is considered the voice of God in our hearts, that tells us what is good and what is bad, and that by repeatedly unobeying it, it dies, is no more accusing or stopping you from bad things.





Edited by Menumorut - 05-Nov-2008 at 15:27

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 16:54
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:


Also, in Eastern Christianity, the voice of the moral conscience is considered the voice of God in our hearts, that tells us what is good and what is bad, and that by repeatedly unobeying it, it dies, is no more accusing or stopping you from bad things.

Then why does God say different things to different people?


Edited by Mixcoatl - 05-Nov-2008 at 16:56
"Some argue that atheism partly stems from a failure to fairly and judiciously consider the facts"
"Atheists deny the existence of Satan, while simultaneously doing his work."

- Conservapedia
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 17:04
Because some have been indoctrinated with man-made precepts, or have some mental disorders.

I add that some Father of the Church (don't remember who, maybe Augustin) said that the Christians have a stronger feeling of conscience than the non-Christians.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 18:58
Then how can one know if what ones conscience tells you is the actual word of God or man-made indoctrinations? If my conscience says A is the right thing to do, whuile yours says B should be done, how can we tell which one (if any) is right?
"Some argue that atheism partly stems from a failure to fairly and judiciously consider the facts"
"Atheists deny the existence of Satan, while simultaneously doing his work."

- Conservapedia
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:03
What is generaly accepted as good and bad by most of humanity is the natural conscience.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:21
Of course many people distinguish morality and ethics from religion and do not consider that we (I'm an atheist) need a religion to guide us, rather we trust our own morality, common sense and ethics. So the responsibility is mine to determine the above and act accordingly, in conjuction with the society and I do not delegate this responsibility to an imaginary entity.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:30
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I don't see what else anyone can do.
 
Unfortunately not everyone has a conscience that prevents him doing harm to others. So crime and therefore punishment will always be with us.
Lets read previous ayat:
 
"The ones who do wrong follow their own Hava without having any knowledge." (Quran 30:29)
 
Hava means whims, lust and immorality in Arabic and can be said to be the antonym of conscience, so everyone has also a Hava which not only doesn't prevent but also encourages him harm to others, it just depends on his knowledge of it.
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 05-Nov-2008 at 19:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:47
Zoroastrianism 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 20:05
I don't want to say Zoroastrianism, Atheism, Christianity or Islam are not good and you shouldn't follow them but I believe "bias" certainly relates to "hava", I mean you will follow your Hava, if you say all good things are here (in this religion or ideology) and nothing else can guide or help me to clear my conscience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 23:56
Oh you mean the native deen - that naturally people will follow Islamic values. Sorry Cyrus I didn't understand what you meant when you said that. The verse you have referenced explains it perfectly. The difference between a persons conscious and temptation.
In that case I think I agree with you.

Quote
[30:29-30]

Nay, the wrong-doers (merely) follow their own lusts, being devoid of knowledge. But who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? To them there will be no helpers.

So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not.

(Yusuf Ali translation)



Edited by Omar al Hashim - 05-Nov-2008 at 23:58
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 05:56

Christianity relates to the Christ and a Christian is a follower of the Christ, it can be said about Zoroastrianism & Zoroastrians, Buddhism & Buddhists, ... Judaism is also the religion of Jews, but Islam is not the relgion of the Arabs and there is no relation betwen Islam and Muhammad, so Muslims are not the followers of Muhammad, Islam (from the root Salam) means to submit to your conscience, not hava or any person or nationality.

Therefore Christians, Zoroastrians, Muhammadans, Jews, ... who follow their conscience are real Muslims, "Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was the follower of the true relgion, a muslim." (Quran 3:67), in Quran 42:13 we read that all true relgions are them same, there has been always just One Religion: Follow Your Conscience!

In this case, as I said before, I am a muslim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 05:56
In brief, we are obligated to follow an informed conscience. That is to say that we have an obligation to continue to follow our conscience while continuing to inform it. If anyone wishes to discuss this position further, send me a pm, and I'll be happy to engage in a discussion in a week or so.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 09:57
Of course many people distinguish morality and ethics from religion and do not consider that we (I'm an atheist) need a religion to guide us, rather we trust our own morality, common sense and ethics. So the responsibility is mine to determine the above and act accordingly, in conjuction with the society and I do not delegate this responsibility to an imaginary entity.

i would like to point out that you are confusing the words "morality" and "ethics" as having the same or similar meanings. the truth is that morality is a law code or a belief system based on majority vote. if 51 % of the pop;ulation say murder is wrong, the moraly speaking, murder is bad.

but ethics is a different kettle of fish. ethics is based on a higher law, set by a supreme omnipresernt all powerful diety. so reguarless of what mortal vote dictates, right and worng are not decided by our personal prefrences, but by the big boss up stairs. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Truthisnotrelitive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 10:00
with all due respect my freind, there is no room for ethics in an atheistic worldveiw.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 11:32
Originally posted by Truthisnotrelitive Truthisnotrelitive wrote:

with all due respect my freind, there is no room for ethics in an atheistic worldveiw.Smile


Nonsense. Of course there is. Even the very beginnings of ethics as a studied subject was not directly related to religion. In fact there were discussions of ethics visavi religion long before Christianity was born.


Edit: by the way, "moral" is the Latin translation of the Greek "ethics". In the modern era the words are treated basicly synonymous, sometimes with the distinction that moral is applied ethics.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 06-Nov-2008 at 11:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 12:10
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

Then how can one know if what ones conscience tells you is the actual word of God or man-made indoctrinations? If my conscience says A is the right thing to do, whuile yours says B should be done, how can we tell which one (if any) is right?
 
You can't, which means you're asking a pointless question, which is a trivial one anyway. The important question is what behaviour should society permit, and which should it forbid.
 
Forget 'right' and 'wrong' and consider only objective 'harmful' and 'harmless'. If something visibly and actually harms other people then it should be criminalised, not because it is 'wrong' but because it is harmful. If it doesn't, it shouldn't be criminalised, but not because it is 'right'.
 
If you then feel it is right to break the law then go ahead, but expect to be punished for it and don't claim justification, because your conscience does not justify your action. The same applies if you feel it is 'wrong' to follow the law. Follow your conscience and take the punishment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2008 at 18:16
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

 

Quote "Good in a relgion is that it says follow your conscience, not what a religion dictates!"

and Omar al Hashim replied:

Quote I don't think any religion says follow your conscience. Your conscience may be mislead by the devil.

 

 
I don't have a conscience, so I guess I can't be mislead by the devil. Though it's going to make following it a bugger.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 08:04
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
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