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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2008 at 15:23
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

To break all the commandments and all the deadly sins, before you die.
 
LOL Very nice! I found that rather funny...
 
But on the concept of the purpose being merely to survive. Well, that's survival and not life isn't it? At least from my perspective, i've separated the two. Does survival (from the view of living life on the edge, in danger of death, thus needing to survive) have the pleasures that life does? I find them different.
 
 
Otherwise i agree that saying that posing the question "What is the purpose for life" is standing on the grounds of deciding there is a maker behind it all from the start. Otherwise, changing it and saying what is the purpose of YOUR life? like states earlier, changes it alot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2008 at 15:24
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

 *that perpetual state of bliss of those in heaven; boooooooooooring! what kind of hope is this?
 
LOL you know you would think so wouldn't you? I've sometimes thought that myself, but then again are we talking about bliss on a 4D scale or on a higher dimensional scale?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 05:44
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But since religion is faith (as opposed to evidence), wouldn't that be similar to working your whole life and not expecting the paycheck until you possibly cannot recieve it?
If I claimed that I would end up in Valhalla, would either of you think that was possible?


First off I wouldn't say faith is opposed to evidence, blind faith is surely, but you put faith in the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow. That's not based on evidence because how will you know the different factors and scenarios that could end up destroying the sun, however your experience and accumulated knowledge tells you this scenario is unlikely, however it still is based on faith. Faith is supposed to take all the evidence you have gathered thus far and make a logical conclusion based on observations that support your "hypothesis" about your beliefs. At least that's faith to me.

And I would not argue the fact that a person will end up in Valhalla, if I was presented logical reasoning behind the deduction. Heck, even a strong belief in that would lead me to believe it is possible, since if a human mind can conceive of something it must be indeed possible at some point in time due to how humanity seems to accomplish things that were seemingly impossible. Now I wouldn't go so far as to say it's plausible, that requires at least anecdotal evidence, but we do not know everything and cannot predict every variable so we can never know what's true and what's not in the end all we have is faith in something.

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Also, living this life to the fullest, makes the personal need for an afterlife less obvious.


But I don't believe that anyone has a personal need for an afterlife. In fact the earliest Jewish beliefs didn't even have an afterlife that one necessarily would hope for (at least I wouldn't). And I wouldn't tell anyone to abandon what they are doing on this earth in hopes to change their afterlife for the better. That's missing the entire point. Because in Christian belief to say the afterlife is a misnomer, because we are taught that a belief in Christ grants us eternal life, so to speak as if our life ends just because our bodies fail is ridiculous. What I think is that we do not gain some sort of Zen enlightenment in heaven, nor is heaven a non-stop ecstasy trip where everyone is jagged up on happy pills, heaven from church teaching is described as thus, there is no sin nor pain and suffering (the consequences of sin). We cannot be certain of anything else, but I'd imagine that we would have opportunites to continue our passions and practices in a similar fashion to our current lives in the natural world.

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Anyways, we can certainly hope I'm wrong, and that you will recieve the paycheck.


Again I don't see the afterlife in a reward/punishment scenario. We will all someday die, and then we will just continue our current existence. To use your analogy, I don't go through life to get a paycheck. I volunteer to work for the charity that is life, because to me living is a gift not a chore, and the only way to properly cherish it is to use it and grow as a person.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 08:35
It's funny how people that are religious keep on sustaining that the belief in a deity is not blind faith. To compare the belief or faith in a natural event or even in real person with the belief in a surnatural entity of which there never have been a proof other that some storybooks or theological allegations is not changing the fact that while trust or faith in nature or people is real while religious faith is unreal (surreal?).
Philosophy is nice but that doesn't make it real. If something is possible that doesn't mean it must exist. Off course one could say that spiritual/imaginary existence is a kind of existence too. But the fact remains that what our imagination creates is not always what we have to deal with.
One thing we have created is the purpose. But what humans have arrogantly done was to seek for purpose(s) in the non-human realm. Unfortunately the universe works not because of humans. Humans do exist because the Universe exists but there's no purpose behind this fact. There's nothing wrong in a person to have a goal. It's only natural.
As for the afterlife: "C'mon, you apes, wanna live forever?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 10:43
Quote It's funny how people that are religious keep on sustaining that the belief in a deity is not blind faith.


And it's funny how many irreligious people keep on sustaining their beliefs that rest on blind faith.

Quote To compare the belief or faith in a natural event or even in real person with the belief in a surnatural entity of which there never have been a proof other that some storybooks or theological allegations is not changing the fact


Just because someone doesn't comprehend the evidence given does not mean there is no evidence. In fact many things need to be taken with blind faith, after all evolution has no concrete evidence to support it as a theory, it merely has conjecture based on observations much in the same way religious beliefs are held. However, other theories like plate-tectonics have quite a bit of solid evidence to support it as a theory without needing to go into conjecture and assumptions like evolution and religion have done.

Quote that while trust or faith in nature or people is real while religious faith is unreal (surreal?).


Well to answer your question nature is natural while faith is preternatural, and both are quite real. After all I have faith and thus faith exists as a concept then, making it real.

Quote Philosophy is nice but that doesn't make it real.


Calling something real doesn't make it real either, and calling something false does not make it false. You mistakingly believe that you know what reality is, no one does because all of our assumptions of reality are based on faith in ourselves.

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If something is possible that doesn't mean it must exist.


That's not what I said, I said that if something is possible it will exist at some point.

Quote Off course one could say that spiritual/imaginary existence is a kind of existence too. But the fact remains that what our imagination creates is not always what we have to deal with.


Indian philosophic tradition states that the world we know is Maya or illusion and that it blinds us to the greater reality we can achieve. Who's to say that this isn't right, and then our imaginations are the only thing we can deal with.

Quote But what humans have arrogantly done was to seek for purpose(s) in the non-human realm.


I don't know if that's arrogance, I mean human arrogance would be to believe that humans can achieve anything using the mere human mind, willpower and strength to accomplish humanity's greatest achievements.

Quote Humans do exist because the Universe exists but there's no purpose behind this fact.


If we can argue about our purpose, if we have minds of our own I'd say that is reason enough to believe that we have a purpose. I mean no other animal can conceptualize any of these higher thoughts, that means that we have a kind of destiny to discover what makes us special. I don't believe that random chance could possible fit all the pieces in our design to make us as we are today.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 13:23
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

And it's funny how many irreligious people keep on sustaining their beliefs that rest on blind faith.
Yet they admit blind faith (some of them at least). I don't believe in a deity. Off course that's blind faith, though negative, but I don't deny it.
Quote
Just because someone doesn't comprehend the evidence given does not mean there is no evidence. In fact many things need to be taken with blind faith, after all evolution has no concrete evidence to support it as a theory, it merely has conjecture based on observations much in the same way religious beliefs are held. However, other theories like plate-tectonics have quite a bit of solid evidence to support it as a theory without needing to go into conjecture and assumptions like evolution and religion have done.
Just because someone doesn't comprehend the concrete evidence(s) that support the evolution theory doesn't change the fact that evolution is. The difference between a deity and reality is that whatever one imagines about reality is irrelevant. The sun exists no matter what human think of it being. Religion is based on a unique assumption. Evolution is an assumption regarding reality.[/quote]
Quote
Well to answer your question nature is natural while faith is preternatural, and both are quite real. After all I have faith and thus faith exists as a concept then, making it real.
Quote Philosophy is nice but that doesn't make it real.

Calling something real doesn't make it real either, and calling something false does not make it false. You mistakingly believe that you know what reality is, no one does because all of our assumptions of reality are based on faith in ourselves.
Quote
If something is possible that doesn't mean it must exist.

That's not what I said, I said that if something is possible it will exist at some point.
Quote Off course one could say that spiritual/imaginary existence is a kind of existence too. But the fact remains that what our imagination creates is not always what we have to deal with.
Indian philosophic tradition states that the world we know is Maya or illusion and that it blinds us to the greater reality we can achieve. Who's to say that this isn't right, and then our imaginations are the only thing we can deal with.
Quote
I guess I wrote too fast and didn't make myself clear. I'm not saying that imagination does not exist, I'm only using the term real for whatever exists without not as a concept but as a specific entity. Not pure spiritual, if you like. Radiowaves, for example, I consider as being real. They exist whatever they are. The Indians might think of a greater reallity but the fact is that we are not dealing with that reality. Imagination itself is probably the result of natural processes. You get high, your imagination gets wacko. Drugs are not an illusion. Their effect is illusion and eventually death. They can become the purpose of life of one person. That person would chase his visions. In fact that person is sick.
Quote
But what humans have arrogantly done was to seek for purpose(s) in the non-human realm.
I don't know if that's arrogance, I mean human arrogance would be to believe that humans can achieve anything using the mere human mind, willpower and strength to accomplish humanity's greatest achievements.
No that's boldness, ambition or something like that. The arrogance resides in the fact that the purpose in cause is always tied to humans. Deists and Pantheists apart, all religions describe the purpose of creation/life according to human standards.
I do think that anything is for humans not an achievable target yet we should dare to at least try and achieve anything.
Quote
Quote Humans do exist because the Universe exists but there's no purpose behind this fact.
If we can argue about our purpose, if we have minds of our own I'd say that is reason enough to believe that we have a purpose. I mean no other animal can conceptualize any of these higher thoughts, that means that we have a kind of destiny to discover what makes us special. I don't believe that random chance could possible fit all the pieces in our design to make us as we are today.
You should turn your faith to chaos theory or quantum physicsWink. No attempt from me to change your faith but you must know that random chance in nature is, as a matter of fact ... not that random. It is indeed much harder to grasp all the content of what "random", I don't think I do it to a full extent.
The last quote of yours, "animal" is the right word. The animal I am has a purpose. That purpose is the result of interactions between my components. That purpose will, sooner or later cease to exists. The purpose(s) of our life transcends us only if others will make it theirs too. But it will never be the same thing.
Hitler wasn't the first or the last antisemite. So antisemitism exists but relevant is what antisemites do, or, if you like, the evolution of the antisemite purpose in each individual.
That would also mean that is good to have a purpose but that doesn't mean anyone must appreciate it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 15:25
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

It's funny how people that are religious keep on sustaining that the belief in a deity is not blind faith. To compare the belief or faith in a natural event or even in real person with the belief in a surnatural entity of which there never have been a proof other that some storybooks or theological allegations is not changing the fact that while trust or faith in nature or people is real while religious faith is unreal (surreal?).
 
I'm sorry Cezar, but this is ignorance (no offense intended). You believe in Evolution due to it's evidence (in the real world) and because of that evidence (that is in the real world) you draw the (real world) conclusion that evolution has occured. Can you touch evolution just as much as i can touch God?
 
Faith is not blind at all, and is (for many people) substantiated by evidence (in the real world, of course). When i talk about evidence i'm not referring to evidence in nature to try and find evidence in nature for a God (which is entirely possible if one researches enough). But instead the evidence of healings (which you do not hear on the news, but still occur, bad publicity remember?) and many other things as well. This hits rather close to home for myself. When my grandfather was 19 he was diagnosed with cancer in his neck. He has the scars of the incursions that the doctors made to try and remove the cancerous tissue, but they failed and he was told he had no more than 2 years to live. Rounding the 1.5 year mark he also decided to just trust in the Lord, went out and prayed, and was healed. He had a lump on his neck (the cancerous tissue) and the next moment that lump was gone. There was no cancer. There arent just stories from the "older" people either. Within my church even people have been healed, and prayers answered. Some are very quiet about it, and do not anounce it to anyone, other than a few. While others are publically known.
 
When science investigates it either finds those pre-supposed postions of supernatural occurences true or false. There are instances of instantaneous regression within cancer, but it is very rare and the cause is not yet known as to how it happens.
 
There is evidence Cezar. Not being part of any church or group that would actually do these things, it's very natural for one to believe that they are non-existant and not believe in them. It's almost too good to be true eh?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 15:51
VoR I think that about blinf faith you should read what I've replyed to Janus. You should understand that I don't think blind faith as being something primitive or totally unreasonable or something for the retarded. We all have our beliefs that might not be based on reality I for one I'm not pretending that everything that guides my decisions is based on solid evidence. I just consider that religious faith of people one is blind faith.
You example with your granfather is irrelevand unles you come with convincing figures that demonstrate faith being a cause for the cure for cancer. Be mindful of the other side of the example you provided: some people might die just because they rely only on faith. There have been plenty of situations when bigots have stopped them or other people from being taken care just because that contradicted their faith.
You think that because I've received an atheist education I'm not able to be empathic or what? The fact is that while at school I was indeed taught that atheism holds the truth my parents and my family are Orthodox Christians. When I was a kid, while on holidays to my grandparents I regulary went to Church. Actually, it seems that I'm the only one in the family that sticks to agnosticism. What you've seen as evidence is not enough explained for me bi the Bible or by the theologues. They're inconsistent and ,like I said in a post on this forum, I need consistency to deal with real life. That's another purpose I haven't be able to completely stick toOuch. And frankly, I had sometimes felt some kind of envy towaards those who believed and found comfort in their faith. I'm past that now, I think. The point is: when your house is on fire you call 911 or pray?. What faith do you adress, in humans or in divinity? Or both? In this case, why?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 16:05
There is no purpose to it. We are simply yet another organism amongst countless other organisms who survive and attempt to pass on their DNA to yet another generation of organic constructions which contain the properties we attribute to "life".

So to live life to the fullest, to prevent ourselves falling victim to nihilistic depression, and to possibly prevent a susceptibility to suicide; the purpose of life is something we must invent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2008 at 23:38
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:



Quote It's funny how people that are religious keep on sustaining that the belief in a deity is not blind faith.


And it's funny how many irreligious people keep on sustaining their beliefs that rest on blind faith.





Yes. Not accepting that God exist, too is based on faith. That is having faith that your assumptions are correct and that there is no deity. Someone who is religious and isn't practicing blind faith also has a critical take on religion. They read and deduce logically what makes sense to them or not.

Remember either one is still a state of mind and deduced conclusions. A person does not wake up one morning and decides that they are an atheist, one has to think about it logically and deduce from works, etc read and thoughts that it is likely, and of course still not being able to absolutely prove to the believer that there is no God. In the same sense a believer cannot prove a hundred per cent that there is a God to someone who does not believe in a deity.

Claiming ultimate knowledge and saying that my way is the only way without critically looking at own beliefs is a form of blind faith as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2008 at 09:20
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:


Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

It's funny how people that are religious keep on sustaining that the belief in a deity is not blind faith.
And it's funny how many irreligious people keep on sustaining their beliefs that rest on blind faith.
Yes. Not accepting that God exist, too is based on faith. That is having faith that your assumptions are correct and that there is no deity. Someone who is religious and isn't practicing blind faith also has a critical take on religion. They read and deduce logically what makes sense to them or not.
Well, some have "faith" that there is not a valid proof of a deity so they choose not to believe in that deity. They have faith in no-faith. No matter, my statement was not about irreligious having blind beliefs it was about religious claiming their faith is not blind.
Quote
Remember either one is still a state of mind and deduced conclusions. A person does not wake up one morning and decides that they are an atheist, one has to think about it logically and deduce from works, etc read and thoughts that it is likely, and of course still not being able to absolutely prove to the believer that there is no God. In the same sense a believer cannot prove a hundred per cent that there is a God to someone who does not believe in a deity.
So if faith is a state of mind then theism is the result of a state of mind. Therefore theism is not the result of a deity. On the other hand, if a deity is the Creator then the state of mind is the result of a deity. But since a state of mind doesn't necessary lead to theism then what alters the process is only human mind. Now, human mind is also the result of the Creator. Why does the Creator designed inconsistent results?
Quote
Claiming ultimate knowledge and saying that my way is the only way without critically looking at own beliefs is a form of blind faith as well.
Certainly, but unfortunately this line of behaviour is mostly associated with religion. On the non-theist side, communist regimes acted according to such a doctrine.
 
Now, related to the topic. I just finished reading "The Sirens of Titan" by Kurt Vonnegut. There is a passage there regarding the history of Trafalmadore which is quite oposable to our discussion. I wonder if anyone here can provide it in plain English. Since my book is in Romanian I can attempt to retranslate it but it might not be quite what the author wrote. There is a phrase that might be significant: "They were obsessed with the idea that everything has a purpose".


Edited by Cezar - 27-Feb-2008 at 09:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2008 at 09:28
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

 *that perpetual state of bliss of those in heaven; boooooooooooring! what kind of hope is this?
 
LOL you know you would think so wouldn't you? I've sometimes thought that myself, but then again are we talking about bliss on a 4D scale or on a higher dimensional scale?
It's not the bliss that bothers me its the perpetuality of it.
Are you suggesting that afterlife is a jump to another dimension. Nice! Would that mean an egression to infinity dimensional state or is there some points where regression starts? Reincarnation=failure to be deemed with the afterlife of a, at least, 4D beingWacko!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2008 at 15:17
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

 *that perpetual state of bliss of those in heaven; boooooooooooring! what kind of hope is this?
 
LOL you know you would think so wouldn't you? I've sometimes thought that myself, but then again are we talking about bliss on a 4D scale or on a higher dimensional scale?
It's not the bliss that bothers me its the perpetuality of it.
Are you suggesting that afterlife is a jump to another dimension. Nice! Would that mean an egression to infinity dimensional state or is there some points where regression starts? Reincarnation=failure to be deemed with the afterlife of a, at least, 4D beingWacko!
 
Lol, no, not at all. Now i know it's a quite contraversial subject, but after-death experiences come to mind as people who experience them are not completely able to describe what occured because it was not explainable by our percieved reality terms.
 
And no, not a jump to another dimension, our mind, psyche, "soul" (as it is often called) is perpetually not in the dimensions that our brain, body exist (at least this is my take on it). it is still in our 4D, but is also present in higher dimensions, and when death occurs it no longer has the 4D brain as a counterpart and we become more fully aware of the other dimensions (like a computer, you have an amazing computer but it's being slowed down by the low amount of RAM or memory, just an example).
 
As to the reincarnation being a rejection - Afterlife is to everyone (taking a biblical point of view) and we all will die, and what is "us" (as referred earlier, the mind, soul, psyche) will continue, either to damnation or peace (again, biblical point of view).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2008 at 15:26
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

You example with your granfather is irrelevand unles you come with convincing figures that demonstrate faith being a cause for the cure for cancer.
Granted, my example does not show faith as the cure for cancer, only that there is no other resonable explanation to me or my family. (but i did not mean that faith was the reason for the cure, but, instead, God Wink)
 
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

The point is: when your house is on fire you call 911 or pray?. What faith do you adress, in humans or in divinity? Or both? In this case, why?
 
Couple years ago my neibhors house was on fire. It was about 2:45 AM and i was just heading to bed when i heard a crackling. Looked out my window and saw a HUGE plume of smoke coming from behind our neighbors house. My first thought was, "wow, that's a huge bonfire out back" but quickly realizing it was coming from the house itself as it was curling around the top of the house. I ran to my parents room to inform them to get a "go back to bed" answer. Finally, rousing my mother, she looked out, confirmed what i had seen and my dad called the fire department.
 
- In this situation, we did both, we prayed for the safety of ourselves, neighbors, and the house, but we also called the fire department.
 
- Why? God works through people to get His will done over half of the time. We prayed the fire to be put out, so we called the fire department, knowing the the conditions would be right for them to respond promptly, because we are in God's hands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2008 at 04:57
Quote Yet they admit blind faith (some of them at least). I don't believe in a deity. Off course that's blind faith, though negative, but I don't deny it.


I don't believe that blind faith is ever a good thing, surely if you are correct it won't change anything, but what if you are wrong? I think that if you claim to blindly follow your beliefs you should do some deep reflection on those beliefs and either try to rationalize them or to be willing to abandon them for something that you can rationalize.

Quote
Just because someone doesn't comprehend the concrete evidence(s) that support the evolution theory doesn't change the fact that evolution is.


Pray tell me what concrete evidence is witnessed in the theory of evolution. I will admit that there is satisfactory evidence that supports a creature over generations can become a similar yet distinct creature, and this is cursory evidence in evolution. However there is not one recorded case of a creature evolving into a different creature over generations.

Not really the topic, but evolution is not a concrete theory, it is merely the best alternative, hopefully someone comes along to fill the holes in the theory like Einstein did with Newton's theories.

Edit: I would just like it to be known that I am not a creationist (as it reeks of magic) but I am not fully an evolutionist (as it reeks of misleading explanations) however I do believe that evolution is on the right track but I can't accept it at face value.

Quote Religion is based on a unique assumption. Evolution is an assumption regarding reality.


Belief in religious tradition and belief in evolution are based on the same quality of evidence.

Quote Deists and Pantheists apart, all religions describe the purpose of creation/life according to human standards.


But of course, I believe it is obvious that if there is a great divine being, we are obviously his chosen creatures. We are the greatest species in the world and our mere presence on this earth is proof of our status.

Quote No attempt from me to change your faith but you must know that random chance in nature is, as a matter of fact ... not that random.


I don't understand then how you can ascribe to no religion, not even one of your own. Considering that without randomness the universe is destined to act in the same way, some guiding force must be guiding the universe. If you do not believe in any one faith then you must believe in the world because if you are a puppet to the destiny of the world you must believe that your destiny will mean something.

Quote
You example with your granfather is irrelevand unles you come with convincing figures that demonstrate faith being a cause for the cure for cancer.


If a person believes that faith played a role in their cure that is all that is required to demonstrate that faith creates cures. But then again faith is not religion.

Quote
Be mindful of the other side of the example you provided: some people might die just because they rely only on faith. There have been plenty of situations when bigots have stopped them or other people from being taken care just because that contradicted their faith.


First off it is ridiculous to deny care because of "God's will" because as humans we cannot know what God's will truly is.

Secondly as to denying care that would contradict their beliefs, I believe that it is wrong for any one person to tell any other person how they must live their life; and that the way they live their life is wrong and they must conform to the beliefs of another who knows better. What arrogance and narrow-minded thought people like that have.

Quote I'm past that now, I think. The point is: when your house is on fire you call 911 or pray?. What faith do you adress, in humans or in divinity? Or both? In this case, why?


Well when your house is on fire you take care of the immediate problem first and call 911, you pray when you have time. Personally I believe that if you have faith there isn't a time where you aren't praying. Because when you have faith always in the back of your mind you know you have faith, and this is a prayer unto itself.

You never need to address faith, it comes to you, all you need to do to have faith come into your life is accept it, period. Live your life as you believe you should and you are living your life properly.

Quote Now, human mind is also the result of the Creator. Why does the Creator designed inconsistent results?


I point you to the story of the Tower of Babel. In it the great King Nimrod orders a tower to be built so that himself and the builder's could glorify themselves and not God. When the people tried to build the tower though God "confused their languages" to make them unable to understand each other so they could not finish the tower.

Many people think that the main point of that story is that you should glorify God and not glorify things that are displeasing to God. However I don't think that is the point. I believe the point of that story is that God divided humanity not as a punishment, but so that we would have to learn how to get rid of our prejudices and work together.

That is why people are different, have different beliefs and thoughts so that we all can learn how to work as one people regardless of our differences. It is not a flaw in his design but a lesson that we all must learn.


Edited by JanusRook - 28-Feb-2008 at 04:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2008 at 06:34
The main issue discussed here, through the smoke and mirrors of faith and non-faith, is whether survival of the self will continue after we expire or it will just do that forever.

Nearly all our life is based on the survival of the self - it is our strongest instinct and could be linked to nearly all that happens with human societies. If one thinks a little you can actually skip all history and realize that it is all about the survival of the self regardless  of the historical setting. So yeah I don't believe that there is any purpose to life. We humans simply adapted to the universe and not the universe to us thats why life isn't fun.

Death or what comes after is another topic. One can view evolution as a puzzle: the different animals "fitting" in the right spots to eventually create the conditions of today. The same can be said about the evolution of human society but this can also applied to death and the "afterlife".
Our functioning body and mind simply there to sustain our consciousness for so long till death when they cease. That consciousness then, shifts in a parallel world and continues thus for eternity. Maybe like this our future is not as nihilistic as our traditional understanding of evolution leads us to believe. After all, I don't have any evidence that "I" was born only that my consciousness developed slowly in "my" growing brain to support it. Thus we have to ask ourselves not why the universe is purposeless but why do we believe it to be so...


Edited by vulkan02 - 28-Feb-2008 at 06:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2008 at 10:18
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

I don't believe that blind faith is ever a good thing, surely if you are correct it won't change anything, but what if you are wrong? I think that if you claim to blindly follow your beliefs you should do some deep reflection on those beliefs and either try to rationalize them or to be willing to abandon them for something that you can rationalize.
I agree that just following blind faith is harmful. That's why I discuss my "blind faith" with you with your own "blind faith"Tongue.
Quote Pray tell me what concrete evidence is witnessed in the theory of evolution. I will admit that there is satisfactory evidence that supports a creature over generations can become a similar yet distinct creature, and this is cursory evidence in evolution. However there is not one recorded case of a creature evolving into a different creature over generations.
That kind of evidence is not recorded yet in nature (we're too still short from the start of the theory). Experiments have witnessed such events.
Quote Not really the topic, but evolution is not a concrete theory, it is merely the best alternative, hopefully someone comes along to fill the holes in the theory like Einstein did with Newton's theories.
Edit: I would just like it to be known that I am not a creationist (as it reeks of magic) but I am not fully an evolutionist (as it reeks of misleading explanations) however I do believe that evolution is on the right track but I can't accept it at face value.
Evolution is, regardless of the fact that one believes in it or not. An explanation or belief is not the fact itself.
Quote Belief in religious tradition and belief in evolution are based on the same quality of evidence.
I don't think I understand what you mean. I really don't see how can that be. "Belief"(such an improper term) in evolution has nothing to do with faith.
Quote But of course, I believe it is obvious that if there is a great divine being, we are obviously his chosen creatures. We are the greatest species in the world and our mere presence on this earth is proof of our status.
Tw o points: We are, or at least should attempt to be, the masters of the Universe; big daddy, if existent, should watch it.
Since you're a catholic I can tell you that I do think that the Christian God described by the Bible (OT especially) should be put to retirement.
Quote I don't understand then how you can ascribe to no religion, not even one of your own. Considering that without randomness the universe is destined to act in the same way, some guiding force must be guiding the universe. If you do not believe in any one faith then you must believe in the world because if you are a puppet to the destiny of the world you must believe that your destiny will mean something.
Like I said, it is hard to grasp the signification of the fact that randomness has rules while it has shows no purpose. I'll try and find some links to articles that can express this beter than me
Quote If a person believes that faith played a role in their cure that is all that is required to demonstrate that faith creates cures. But then again faith is not religion.
Now, that does turns things crazy! If I believe the Sun is a star then the Sun is a star because I believe itShocked!
Quote First off it is ridiculous to deny care because of "God's will" because as humans we cannot know what God's will truly is.
Secondly as to denying care that would contradict their beliefs, I believe that it is wrong for any one person to tell any other person how they must live their life; and that the way they live their life is wrong and they must conform to the beliefs of another who knows better. What arrogance and narrow-minded thought people like that have.
I agree with that . There's a problem though: children.
Quote Well when your house is on fire you take care of the immediate problem first and call 911, you pray when you have time. Personally I believe that if you have faith there isn't a time where you aren't praying. Because when you have faith always in the back of your mind you know you have faith, and this is a prayer unto itself.
That's not a straight answer. You have faith in an allpowerfull and benevolent deity. On one hand that deity can cure cancer, on the other hand it cannot intervene on such a mere event like not letting your house burn. If you, as VoR said, have faith in both because you hope that God will guide the firefighters to your house then you hope that He would compell those people to do what you want. Let's suppose there are three house on fire and only one firefight team. A house belongs to a Christian, one to a Muslim and the third to an Atheist. If you pray for your house to be taken care and it happens then you had just put yourself ahead of the other two through your faith. If it doesn't happen then you come with something like God is putting my faith to trial or something like that. Now, both you and the Muslim pray. The Atheist's house is saved.  What can that mean? Maybe that chance favor those who only have faith in firefightersTongue!
Quote You never need to address faith, it comes to you, all you need to do to have faith come into your life is accept it, period. Live your life as you believe you should and you are living your life properly.
What if I believe I should live my life deconverting the religious? Since I mentioned Kurt Vonnegut in a prior post here's one from that novel: "A purpose of human life, no matter who is controlling it, is to love whoever is around to be loved."
Quote I point you to the story of the Tower of Babel. In it the great King Nimrod orders a tower to be built so that himself and the builder's could glorify themselves and not God. When the people tried to build the tower though God "confused their languages" to make them unable to understand each other so they could not finish the tower.
Many people think that the main point of that story is that you should glorify God and not glorify things that are displeasing to God. However I don't think that is the point. I believe the point of that story is that God divided humanity not as a punishment, but so that we would have to learn how to get rid of our prejudices and work together.
That is why people are different, have different beliefs and thoughts so that we all can learn how to work as one people regardless of our differences. It is not a flaw in his design but a lesson that we all must learn.
It's still inconsistent. What lesson is that we should learn? So we decide to make a building to glorify ourselves. Why not, since we are God's greater creation?. We cooperate to reach this goal. The God confuses our minds. He does that because we must learn how to work as one people regardless of our differences Hey, God, before you confused us we were just doing that, didn't we? Make up your mind, please!
 
*Janus, are you VoR advocateWink?


Edited by Cezar - 28-Feb-2008 at 10:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2008 at 11:56
Quote I don't think I understand what you mean. I really don't see how can that be. "Belief"(such an improper term) in evolution has nothing to do with faith.


What I mean is that the evidence supporting both topics are equally strong.

Quote Now, that does turns things crazy! If I believe the Sun is a star then the Sun is a star because I believe itShocked!


No, it's more of the placebo effect, their faith creates an automatic healing process unconsciously that they would not be able to utilize otherwise. Faith does not need religion but religion requires faith.

Quote I agree with that . There's a problem though: children.


No problem, the fates of children are left to their parents until those children come of age.

Quote On one hand that deity can cure cancer, on the other hand it cannot intervene on such a mere event like not letting your house burn.


But God chooses when to intervene, a prayer is not a summons, I can pray till my face turns blue but God will still only intervene in a manner he deems appropriate. All I can ask for is that God helps me through any situation I run into.

Quote n. If you, as VoR said, have faith in both because you hope that God will guide the firefighters to your house then you hope that He would compell those people to do what you want.


Ah, as humans we hope that God will answer our prayers because ultimately we are at his mercy and we hope that we are correct in determining our needs. However we as Christians need to understand that sometimes we are wrong in our assumptions. For instance, what if my house and my possessions were keeping me from growing in my spiritual life, then the tragic fire that destroys my house is really a blessing in disguise. Material possessions are worthless in the grand scheme of things.

Quote A house belongs to a Christian, one to a Muslim and the third to an Atheist. If you pray for your house to be taken care and it happens then you had just put yourself ahead of the other two through your faith.


The proper Christian would pray for the house of the Muslim and the Atheist before their own. A Saint would rush to stop the fire at the house of the Muslim and the Atheist while their own house burned.

Quote . If it doesn't happen then you come with something like God is putting my faith to trial or something like that. Now, both you and the Muslim pray. The Atheist's house is saved.  What can that mean? Maybe that chance favor those who only have faith in firefightersTongue!


Or maybe by saving the Atheists house God has determined that the strain of homelessness would be unbearable for the atheist and would lead him into a spiral that would further corrupt his soul. Thus by sparing the atheist's house God could be saving the atheist's soul further down the road. Whereas the Christian and the Muslim will be able to use their faith to help get them through the tough times of homelessness.

Quote What if I believe I should live my life deconverting the religious?


Well then continue in that manner, perhaps your attempts at deconversion are to spur people to research their own religious beliefs thus making them grow in their own faith. Don't worry though, by aiding others you won't find yourself damned.

Quote Hey, God, before you confused us we were just doing that, didn't we? Make up your mind, please!


Those working at the Tower of Babel were all one people, with no differences it was an unnatural population. Humanity has always been a diverse group filled with many peoples with confusing customs, languages and beliefs. However for God there is only one belief, and we must become in accordance with God's beliefs and not to separate ourselves by substituting those beliefs with our own.

Quote *Janus, are you VoR advocateWink?


I'm not quite sure what you mean by that...




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2008 at 14:07
Originally posted by JanusRook JanusRook wrote:

What I mean is that the evidence supporting both topics are equally strong.
Who has a fossil of an angel?
Quote No, it's more of the placebo effect, their faith creates an automatic healing process unconsciously that they would not be able to utilize otherwise. Faith does not need religion but religion requires faith.
Oh, I get it. I agree with you that people can find comfort in faith and that helps them deal with troubles.
Quote No problem, the fates of children are left to their parents until those children come of age.
Yes, but the children will follow their parents if taught so by them. So, how can children be raised in such manner that they would freely choose what their faith will be?
Quote But God chooses when to intervene, a prayer is not a summons, I can pray till my face turns blue but God will still only intervene in a manner he deems appropriate. All I can ask for is that God helps me through any situation I run into.
Well, that's one reason why I don't like Him or, better said, I can't find faith in Him. 
Quote Ah, as humans we hope that God will answer our prayers because ultimately we are at his mercy and we hope that we are correct in determining our needs. However we as Christians need to understand that sometimes we are wrong in our assumptions. For instance, what if my house and my possessions were keeping me from growing in my spiritual life, then the tragic fire that destroys my house is really a blessing in disguise. Material possessions are worthless in the grand scheme of things.
Then why possesing something material at all? Why aren't the Christians just giving everything to those who think of material possesions as being significant? If one purpose of a christian is to be united with God he should not care at all about material possesion. The Romanian Orthodox Church, for example, has quite a lot of material possesions. Why doesn't it give them to those who care about such things?
Quote The proper Christian would pray for the house of the Muslim and the Atheist before their own. A Saint would rush to stop the fire at the house of the Muslim and the Atheist while their own house burned.
Whatever, it still means that by answering the prayer the Saint (where did he came from? are these part time employees of fire departments?) have been compelled to do something. A prayer should be answered directly by God, why using minions?
Quote Or maybe by saving the Atheists house God has determined that the strain of homelessness would be unbearable for the atheist and would lead him into a spiral that would further corrupt his soul. Thus by sparing the atheist's house God could be saving the atheist's soul further down the road. Whereas the Christian and the Muslim will be able to use their faith to help get them through the tough times of homelessness.
That's another reason I don't like Him. Let the firefighters choose.
Quote Well then continue in that manner, perhaps your attempts at deconversion are to spur people to research their own religious beliefs thus making them grow in their own faith. Don't worry though, by aiding others you won't find yourself damned.
Oh please, I don't wanna go to heaven! It looks boring.Ouch!
Quote Those working at the Tower of Babel were all one people, with no differences it was an unnatural population. Humanity has always been a diverse group filled with many peoples with confusing customs, languages and beliefs. However for God there is only one belief, and we must become in accordance with God's beliefs and not to separate ourselves by substituting those beliefs with our own.
Then the lesson was about faith, not cooperation. Anyway if it's natural to be diverse then a lesson for us learning to be as one is unnatural. And what is that stops Him to make us become in accordance with His belief? I mean, He did stopped the workers of the Tower, why not finishing the job?
Quote
Quote *Janus, are you VoR advocateWink?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that...
 Just that your post was reffering to a reply of mine to Voice of Reason. If you two have different comments about the same statements of mine I might turn a little confused when answering. That might be funny toughSmile


Edited by Cezar - 28-Feb-2008 at 14:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2008 at 15:14
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

Let's suppose there are three house on fire and only one firefight team. A house belongs to a Christian, one to a Muslim and the third to an Atheist. If you pray for your house to be taken care and it happens then you had just put yourself ahead of the other two through your faith. If it doesn't happen then you come with something like God is putting my faith to trial or something like that. Now, both you and the Muslim pray. The Atheist's house is saved.
  
 
No, not at all. It's purely trust. I TRUST that I am taken care of. Although the house may burn, your point is? In the book of Job God took everything away the Job had. His children, house, livestock, health. His wife told him to curse God and die. Although the house may burn, i'm fine, and i know that i'm safe either way. It's a trust issue, not a "i'm better, i serve God, He'll save me before you". Such a way of thinking is totaly self-centered and un-biblical.
 
Originally posted by Cezar Cezar wrote:

It's still inconsistent. What lesson is that we should learn? So we decide to make a building to glorify ourselves. Why not, since we are God's greater creation?. We cooperate to reach this goal. The God confuses our minds. He does that because we must learn how to work as one people regardless of our differences Hey, God, before you confused us we were just doing that, didn't we? Make up your mind, please! 
 
No, glorifying yourself is NOT biblical Cezar, that's why it was stopped. When humankind was advancing (not necessarily in technology. from a biblical standpoint, mankind has a part of God in him, what can we NOT do? Just as was said in the same passage, God said that if we were not confused, there would be nothing impossible for us, that's the Creator stating that. Imagine a world with one language, where would be be now with the free-flow of technology due to no language barriers?) we were beginning to think that we didn't need God, as is evident in our society today. Mankind, this time around, has advanced in technology, in machines. Before this, we could have easily advanced in another way without machines. There are such cases of Kenisis's of sorts. (probably spelt kenises's wrong LOL).
 
The story is not there for us to just learn from. It's written history, as the Bible is meant to be taken. We learn from written history dont we? the Holocaust, and other such things are written history for mankind to learn from. Becuase it's written history people can interpret it many different ways, but does not change the fact or the possibility of un-noticed meanings.


Edited by Voice of Reason - 28-Feb-2008 at 15:16
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