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Forum LockedWhat is the longest living civilization?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 05:34
India is a different case. Although it did develope great empires, but they did not survive as Chinese did. Even today, they do not have a sole official language; elites still perfer to speak English (thats what my Indian friends told me. I welcome any correction). Ever since its unification around 200 BC, Chinese writing has been the official writing system for all people in China. Today, Mandarin is the official language.  

Edited by Kids - 27-Aug-2006 at 05:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 11:46
Civilisation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization

Literally, a civilization is a complex society, as distinguished from a simpler society. Everyone lives in a society and a culture, but not everyone lives in a civilization. Historically, civilizations have shared some or all of the following traits (some of these were suggested by V. Gordon Childe):

  • Intensive agricultural techniques, such as the use of human power, crop rotation, and irrigation. This has enabled farmers to produce a surplus of food that is not necessary for their own subsistence.
  • A significant portion of the population that does not devote most of its time to producing food. This permits a division of labor. Those who do not occupy their time in producing food may instead focus their efforts in other fields, such as industry, war, science or religion. This is possible because of the food surplus described above.
  • The gathering of some of these non-food producers into permanent settlements, called cities.
  • A form of social organization. This can be a chiefdom, in which the chieftain of one noble family or clan rules the people; or a state society, in which the ruling class is supported by a government or bureaucracy. Political power is concentrated in the cities.
  • The institutionalized control of food by the ruling class, government or bureaucracy.
  • The establishment of complex, formal social institutions such as organized religion and education, as opposed to the less formal traditions of other societies.
  • Development of complex forms of economic exchange. This includes the expansion of trade and may lead to the creation of money and markets.
  • The accumulation of more material possessions than in simpler societies.
  • Development of new technologies by people who are not busy producing food. In many early civilizations, metallurgy was an important advancement.
  • Advanced development of the arts, including writing.
By this definition, some societies, like Greece, are clearly civilizations, whereas others like the Bushmen clearly are not. However, the distinction is not always clear. In the Pacific Northwest of the US, for example, an abundant supply of fish guaranteed that the people had a surplus of food without any agriculture. The people established permanent settlements, a social hierarchy, material wealth, and advanced artwork (most famously totem poles), all without the development of intensive agriculture. Meanwhile, the Pueblo culture of southwestern North America developed advanced agriculture, irrigation, and permanent, communal settlements such as Taos. However, the Pueblo never developed any of the complex institutions


Something like that and we have:
Mesopotamia-dead
Egypt-dead
China
India
Greece-dead
Byzantz-dead
Islam
Western civilization
Inca-dead
Aztec-dead

Still alive:
China - passing to western civilization
India - passing to western civilization
Islam fighting to exists.
Western civilization almost conquered the world.

So, in this moment the longest civilization is islam.
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 11:56
What do you mean by China and India "passing to Western civilization"? I think no Chinese or Indian person will agree with this statement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 12:13
They don't agree but TV, Hollywood movies, Mac Donald, Britney Spears, Beckam and so many icons of western civilization are already common and accepted in both countries. They move into western civilization and step by step they lose ancient customs and values. That's history.

For many people in Romania old cultural values are still alive but not for young generation, the same is valid everywhere.
I don't say is a good thing.


Edited by Richard XIII - 27-Aug-2006 at 12:35
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 17:28
what is the relation of the modern china with ancient chine?
The same for India.
And if there is any relation why Agupt has not any relation with it's past
?r Greece? I think that your opinion has conflict conclusions
Samos national guard.

260 days left.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 18:05

perikles, you sounds very much like Eurocentric imperialist:

This is what you said in the topic Greatest Empires:

"As far as the "Mongol" empire maybe i am ignorant but what do you mean? You mean the savages that was wondering around and slaughter people? You call this empire? Ghekins Chan was a big leader yes? And tell me something that mongols offer to humanity?"

"Greeks ,although they weren't empire by themselves (Byzantio, Macedonian) and of course Athens allience and Spartan allience may considered as empires, have offer a lot of things to civil. Britain is a gret empire. But India? what? the life after death? Great. China? that they use gun pownder for fireworks? I don't say that they are not gret empires but they worth less than greeks, romans, british even spain."
 
To you, all non-Western civilizations are barbaric (as you mentioned in Mongols) and less civilized (as you mentioned regarding of China and India). If you continue to state such bias and Orientalist view, I am afraid that I have to take drastic action against you which was the outcome for racist Master Blaster earlier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 19:09

Kids, could you locate the specific post in which Perikles made the statement calling the Mongolians "savages"? Next time when you see a post like that that is in blatant violation of AE rules, you should report to us immediately using the "report" button. It will be dealt with promptly. Even though we try to be as thorough as possible, the sheer number of posts that we have to read every day means that sometimes we do overlook some offending posts.

Thanks in advance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ageia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 20:22
western civilization bases on greek civilization so it is a little bit wird to see the word dead next to greece :PPP if you mean that we dont wear anymore chlamys well yes you have a point.lSmile

anyway i enjoy reading new testament without translation  :) and voting for goverment  i also love watching olympic games while eating κρεατοσφαιριδια LOLLOLLOLEmbarrassed

ps kids i think you must relax you are so nervous with all others that disagree with you.be cool man Sleepy





Edited by ageia - 27-Aug-2006 at 21:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 22:38
Originally posted by ageia ageia wrote:


ps kids i think you must relax you are so nervous with all others that disagree with you.be cool man Sleepy
 
I hope you didn't dare saying that Greeks(or anyone else) have the longest living culture instead of China(nothing personal) and insult kids.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ageia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 22:44
oh my god what have i doneShocked

Smile
I had so much to do outside When they were building the walls, how could I not have noticed!
But I never heard the builders, not a sound.
Imperceptibly they have closed me off from the outside worl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 22:51

Anyway i don't think there is any ancient living culture,all of them are modernized,of course China still uses pretty much the same language,but so does Greece,India still has the same religion,but the fact is that none of them actually have the same culture as their ancestors.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 23:07
Lovely. We will never learn how to live together, thus we will never learn how to be truly civilized which also denotes tolerance and open-mindness.


It seems mostly to me that civilization developed INDEPENDENTLY and CONCURRENTLY in three major geographic areas between 8000-4000 BC:
-China, around the basin of the Yellow River (Yangtse?)
-India, along the Indus
-In the Fertile Crescent of the Tigris and Euphrates in what was then Sumeria and what is now a big, bloody mess...er, sorry, Iraq.

The question of "What is the oldest civilization" is misleading BECAUSE THERE ARE A BUNCH OF THEM AND NO SINGLE ONE IS GOD'S EXCLUSIVE GIFT TO HUMANITY.

The Greko-Roman civilization was/is pivotal in the development of WESTERN civilization. I love the Greeks and the Romans, they're MY people, MY soldiers; but I'll understand if an Indonesian or a Sub-Saharan African doesn't feel this way (and why should he share my view? me,with all my reading over the years, have CHOSEN not to read a single line about the history of those regions, thus in effect being bount by the same cultural restrictions that I intellectually like to condemn as "uppity" or "snobby"). Yes, I, to a certain extend, am an ethnocentrist too but I'm aware of it and don't try to justify it with shaky intellectual arguments.

Pericles, "pan mi Ellin varvaros esti?" Are we serious? Today? When the country is making a huge effort to leave the "psorokostaina"  mentality behind and become a beacon of stability and  cooperation in the region? Unless we are mortally threatened to the fabric of our existence, we should not fall back to those cliches.


Ponce de Leon wrote earlier:
"I personally believe that the longest civilization is yet to be perceived. My bets go on the USA as being the longest living civilisation...EVER."

BWAHAHAHA,--OHOHO,HAHAHAHHAAOHMYGODHHAHAHHAHAHDHGEEZGURGLEHAHH---falls off of chair with uncontrollable laughter, clutching stomach, dribble at the mouth, eyes rolling backwards...



Edited by konstantinius - 28-Aug-2006 at 00:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 23:08
With so many poorly-articulated, out-dated, and ill-informed ideas (some of which are borderline cultural supremacist/nationalist ones) expressed here, I can totally understand Kids's frustration.
 
But Kids, I do suggest you to take a deep breath and distance yourself from these threads for a while. Ignorance and narrow-mindedness are not something that you can change overnight especially if one has neither the will nor the capacity to change. At the end of the day, it's people like you who can truly enjoy and appreciate the beauty and the depth of other cultures while those who insist on seeing the world from the little confined corner will always stay where they are, living the same life and thinking the same thoughts all their lives, constantly fearful of "cultural contamination".  
 
(Just as a footnote: Personally, I think it is so much more cool to be able to read great literary work written in other languages, explore different forms of government, and taste cuisines from all over the world. But what can I say. I am a multidimensional person who abhors my identity being defined solely by my nationality.)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 23:16
Originally posted by ageia ageia wrote:

western civilization bases on greek civilization so it is a little bit wird to see the word dead next to greece :PPP if you mean that we dont wear anymore chlamys well yes you have a point.lSmile

anyway i enjoy reading new testament without translation  :) and voting for goverment  i also love watching olympic games while eating κρεατοσφαιριδια LOLLOLLOLEmbarrassed

ps kids i think you must relax you are so nervous with all others that disagree with you.be cool man Sleepy



 
Hey, I am not angry with you or anyone. I simply want to change some people's view on the narrow view of Western civilization.
 
You know, I hold a Honor Degree in Political Science and Minor in Classic Studies. I know a little bit of Ancient Greeks (took only the Beginner Greeks in 1 year university).
 
In 2004, I also attained the Opening and Closing Ceremonies of Olympic Game in Athens.
 
I admire the contributions that Greeks contributed to our world. When I told a local university student from University of Athens about how lucky modern Greeks have so many ancient remains, he replied that the greatest gift that Greeks gave us (humanity), is the revolution in thought.
 
To think rational instead of irrational, to practice science instead of superstition, to adhere justice instead of injustice, and to respect love instead of hate are what I have leraned from our forefather from Gr  eece.
 
Likewise, we should all think outside of box, tackle an issue without solely reliance on any personal judgement or interpretation. This is what I tried to demonstrate earlier with Master Blaster or other members. I am not in favorite with any civilization (afterall, I have a minor in Classics, not Chinese).
 
I remember the first sculpture that I saw in the Museum of Athens was not truely Greek, but a copy of Egyptian sculpture. This clearly shown how ancient Greeks acquried Egyptian art during the Archaic era. From writing to mathematics, the Greeks of Archaic Age were inluenced heavly from its neighbors. It is not surprise to find that the first generation of Greek philosophers were found outside of mainland Greece or in Asia Minor.  


Edited by Kids - 27-Aug-2006 at 23:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 23:17
Originally posted by konstantinius konstantinius wrote:

 
The Greko-Roman civilization was/is pivotal in the development of WESTERN civilization. I love the Greeks and the Romans, they're MY people, MY soldiers; but I'll understand if an Indonesian or a Sub-Saharan African doesn't feel this way (and why should he share my view? me,with all my reading over the years, have CHOSEN not to read a single line about the history of those regions, thus in effect being bount by the same cultural restrictions that I intellectually like to condemn as "uppity" or "snobby"). Yes, I, to a certain extend, am an ethnocentrist too but I'm aware of it and don't try to justify it with shaky intellectual arguments.

 
Very well said, konstantinius. I agree that all of us are "ethnocentric" to a certain extent. All of us are bound by our own educational, socio-economic, and cultural background. The key is, like you say, to be keenly aware of it and not to "justify it with shaky intellectual arguments".
 
I still believe, though, that as modern people, we should try to educate ourselves about other cultures - even minimally. Given the easy access to information, I find NOT even taking the most minute effort to try to learn and know about what's happening or what's happened in other parts of the world very unforgivable. I am not asking people to become Islamologist or Sinologist or Africanologist. But I find the narrow-mindedness exhibited in some of the forumers here very disheartening.   
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 23:28
@flyingzone
 
From what i've read Kid's is the one narrowminded and trully obsessed with Chinese culture,oh and lets not forget calling everyone "racists","eurocentric" and many more just because they argue with him.
 
Maybe you should encourage him not being such a Western-hater.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 23:36
I don't see Kids being a Western-hater at all. He just doesn't let his ethnicity and nationality blind the way he sees the world. I find that very commendable and admirable.
 
Calling him someone "obsessed with Chinese culture" is simply ridiculous. I am the moderator of the East Asian forum and I do not recall him making posts there. He is just trying to look at the world from a MODERN perspective unfettered by artificially-defined national borders. Knowing him, I think he would be equally eager to "defend" the contribution of Indian culture, African culture, Islamic culture, and you know what, even Western culture. I can't see someone like that being "narrow-minded".
 
If people do not understand Kids's arguments, at least try to understand konstantinius's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 23:38
I am not obssessed with China or any civilization. Why you try to attack me personally? I didnt even talk to you  before. Read my previous posts. I already said I have a minor in Classic Studies and even took the beginner Greek. I even attained the Olympic Games in Athens.  I use China as an example to show that Greece or Europe was not the only advanced civilization.
 
If you think I am bias, please report to the administrater, otherwise stop all these nonsenses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 23:49
Originally posted by flyingzone flyingzone wrote:

I don't see Kids being a Western-hater at all. He just doesn't let his ethnicity and nationality blind the way he sees the world. I find that very commendable and admirable.
 
Calling him someone "obsessed with Chinese culture" is simply ridiculous. I am the moderator of the East Asian forum and I do not recall him making posts there. He is just trying to look at the world from a MODERN perspective unfettered by artificially-defined national borders. Knowing him, I think he would be equally eager to "defend" the contribution of Indian culture, African culture, Islamic culture, and you know what, even Western culture. I can't see someone like that being "narrow-minded".
 
If people do not understand Kids's arguments, at least try to understand konstantinius's.
 
Although it's off topic,Kid's posts are mostly about China and how China is superior than other cultures(says that Indian culture isnt compared to Greece's while China's is.Arrogance in one word).
He might not post in East Asian forum but he really should do.Wink
Maybe you knowing him won't let you see his arrogance and rudness,which i would totally understand in a way.
If you still think i'm wrong then accept my apologies.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 00:01
"Kid's posts are mostly about China and how China is superior than other cultures"
 
Did i ever say China is SUPERIOR to India or Greece? I list the books that were published by Classical experts, but I didnt hold any bias view toward any civilization.
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