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Forum LockedWhat happened to the Mongols?

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    Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 18:11
Can anyone explain to me the main reasons for the fall of the Mongols, I understand they kind of started to assimilate into the cultures they took over and there were some failed campaigns, but was this it?

Thanks!

Edited by trebtsienn - 01-Feb-2007 at 18:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 18:47
Their empire expanded way too quickly. When the first Khan died, the huge Mongolian Empire was broken down to several pieces, each to be given to Khan's sons. The broken pieces of Mongolian Empire slowly began to isolate themselves and assimilate to other cultures that were easily adopted. Some managed to find out Mongolian army's weakness and were able to push Mongolians back. (Ex. Russians) The heartland of Mongolian Empire lost China when their government became corrupted and were careless enough to allow Chinese resistances to grow so that the Chinese pushed the Mongolians back. Worse, during the Chinese' revolt, the Khan of Mongolian died... and allowing Mongolians to fight for the throne...
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 00:25

"Broken pieces of the Mongol Empire". 

 
 
The "Golden Horde". Just one of the many "pieces" of the Mongol Empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 08:18
These are developments that can't very well be explained fully in a mere forum post without oversimplifications, I'd suggest looking up a book instead.

As has already been pointed out, the Mongols expanded so quickly over such a large area that it was near impossible to consolidate a universal hold on all of it from China, even with today's communication and logistic technology it would be extremely difficult. So necessarily, it had to divided into several smaller political units, headed by Khans who all acknowledged the supremacy of the Kha Khan in Karakorum/Beijing.

Still, these "smaller political units", like the Ilkhanid and Golden Horde dependencies, were quite huge by any standards. You can hardly say the Mongols fell because of this divsion. Granted, if they had managed to keep it all together as one enormous empire, it would have been far stronger than divided, but as already pointed out this would require superhuman efforts.

My point is that, if you're going to investigate this, I would suggest you rather examine the internal development in the Mongol states compared with and in relation to its neighbours, f.ex. Muscovy or the Ottoman Empire, and also how Vasco de Gama's "discovery" of an alternative route to the East decreased the wealth being transported along the formerly all-important Silk Road.

What is fascinating about this topic is examining how a people like the Mongols, feared for their invincibility in battle and superb organization in the 13th century, were by the end of middle ages hardly a threat all to the new emerging powers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 13:45
simple, my ancesters He couldn't resist the lure of the richness of the China and persia, the well trained army soon became extremely corrupted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 16:17
From what I understand, the Mongols divided into different kingdoms that were slowly pushed back by Arabic forces. In Russia, the Golden Horde (or whatever group of Mongols ruled there, I don't really remember), was defeated by the father of Ivan the Terrible. Before then, the Russians had paid heavy tribute to the Mongols, but the Mongols had made the Prince of Muscovy too powerful when Ivan the Moneybags had assumed the debts of other Russian princes and given the Mongols sizable tribute.
 
The Yuan Dynasty, the Mongol empire in China, declined towards the end of Kublai Khan's reign. Later, following the Yuan Emperor Renzong's death, there was a civil war over succession to the dynasty. Other civil wars, corruption and issues with the economy ultimately undermined the Yuan Dynasty. The end of it came when Zhu Yuanzhang founded the Ming. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 23:58
The Mongol "Successor" States included,
 
The Blue Horde, The Golden Horde, The White Horde, The Chaghadai, The Ilkhanate, and the largest "State" being The Empire Of The Great Khan, which consisted of China, and the other half of the "known world".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 13:55
Originally posted by Slick Slick wrote:

From what I understand, the Mongols divided into different kingdoms that were slowly pushed back by Arabic forces. In Russia, the Golden Horde (or whatever group of Mongols ruled there, I don't really remember), was defeated by the father of Ivan the Terrible. Before then, the Russians had paid heavy tribute to the Mongols, but the Mongols had made the Prince of Muscovy too powerful when Ivan the Moneybags had assumed the debts of other Russian princes and given the Mongols sizable tribute.
 
The Yuan Dynasty, the Mongol empire in China, declined towards the end of Kublai Khan's reign. Later, following the Yuan Emperor Renzong's death, there was a civil war over succession to the dynasty. Other civil wars, corruption and issues with the economy ultimately undermined the Yuan Dynasty. The end of it came when Zhu Yuanzhang founded the Ming. 


Wich arabic forces? The arabic forces? You mean The Islamic army?

The army was replaced with Persians who became ruler of Islam and after that The seljuks who also declined during the rise of The Mongolian empire(the only thing lefty were the Anatolian beyliks)

The first loss for the mongolians was AIn Jalut at the hands of Baybars(Mameluke king & here in the Islamic world)


as for russia they were under Tatar rule until 1475 and after that under Ottoman rule.  so that has nothing to do wit the mongols. Different time






The end of the Mongolians was as the same as Most steppe Empires. United under a Great leader. Grow superfast.Great leader dies. Empire is devided(civil war).Empire collapses as fast.

What goes up must come down


Edited by xi_tujue - 04-Feb-2007 at 13:57
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:17
Originally posted by xi_tujue xi_tujue wrote:

Originally posted by Slick Slick wrote:

From what I understand, the Mongols divided into different kingdoms that were slowly pushed back by Arabic forces. In Russia, the Golden Horde (or whatever group of Mongols ruled there, I don't really remember), was defeated by the father of Ivan the Terrible. Before then, the Russians had paid heavy tribute to the Mongols, but the Mongols had made the Prince of Muscovy too powerful when Ivan the Moneybags had assumed the debts of other Russian princes and given the Mongols sizable tribute.
 
The Yuan Dynasty, the Mongol empire in China, declined towards the end of Kublai Khan's reign. Later, following the Yuan Emperor Renzong's death, there was a civil war over succession to the dynasty. Other civil wars, corruption and issues with the economy ultimately undermined the Yuan Dynasty. The end of it came when Zhu Yuanzhang founded the Ming. 


Wich arabic forces? The arabic forces? You mean The Islamic army?

The army was replaced with Persians who became ruler of Islam and after that The seljuks who also declined during the rise of The Mongolian empire(the only thing lefty were the Anatolian beyliks)

The first loss for the mongolians was AIn Jalut at the hands of Baybars(Mameluke king & here in the Islamic world)


as for russia they were under Tatar rule until 1475 and after that under Ottoman rule.  so that has nothing to do wit the mongols. Different time






The end of the Mongolians was as the same as Most steppe Empires. United under a Great leader. Grow superfast.Great leader dies. Empire is devided(civil war).Empire collapses as fast.

What goes up must come down
 
Did the Arabic forces resisted and pushed the Mongolians back like the Russians did, or did the Mongolian invaders simply assimilated into Arabic culture? The isolation between the heartland of Mongol and China from Middle East may encoruaged the outumbered Mongolians to intermarriage and mix with the natives of Middle East. Exactly what happened to Mongolians in Middle East?
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:29
Originally posted by pekau pekau wrote:

 
Did the Arabic forces resisted and pushed the Mongolians back like the Russians did, or did the Mongolian invaders simply assimilated into Arabic culture? The isolation between the heartland of Mongol and China from Middle East may encoruaged the outumbered Mongolians to intermarriage and mix with the natives of Middle East. Exactly what happened to Mongolians in Middle East?

In that time there weren't any "Arabic" forces. Only muslim state which resisted against Ilkhanide state(founded by one Mongols warlord which name I can't remember) in middle east were Mamluks afaik. Contrary to Russians which were fully conquered by Mongols and they only managed to form good resistance when the Golden Horde( founded by Batu) was crumbling in the begin of the 15th century.
The ethic Mongols were quite few in numbers - as their army consisted mostly of Turkic people so most likely tiny ethic Mongol elite merged with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:46
So the Mongolians were pushed back or massacred by Muslim resistance? Or were they assimilated into Arabic culture. You haven't really answered the question...
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:50
Originally posted by pekau pekau wrote:

So the Mongolians were pushed back or massacred by Muslim resistance? Or were they assimilated into Arabic culture. You haven't really answered the question...


The mongolians & Turks of those hordes got assimilated in to Middleastern culture

because the numbers of Mongolians were low & a lot were turkic speaking.

you do the math



if you can't Lot of mongolians who already spoke a dialect of the Turkic branch who had most of the same customes got assimilated into those groups
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:54
Thanks for clearing that out. So Mongolains weren't kicked out of Middle East.
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 02:01
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

My point is that, if you're going to investigate this, I would suggest you rather examine the internal development in the Mongol states compared with and in relation to its neighbours, f.ex. Muscovy or the Ottoman Empire, and also how Vasco de Gama's "discovery" of an alternative route to the East decreased the wealth being transported along the formerly all-important Silk Road.
 
Originally posted by pekau pekau wrote:

Did the Arabic forces resisted and pushed the Mongolians back like the Russians did, or did the Mongolian invaders simply assimilated into Arabic culture? The isolation between the heartland of Mongol and China from Middle East may encoruaged the outumbered Mongolians to intermarriage and mix with the natives of Middle East. Exactly what happened to Mongolians in Middle East?
 
I have a question about the Mongols and cultural assimilation. 
 
We know at first that the Mongols were hated and feared by the ancient civilizations whom they met and subsequently conquered, such as Persia and China.  However, when the Seljuks and Ottomans came into contact with the Mongols (both ethnic Mongols and the Turks with them), what did they think of them culturally?  Were they uncouth pagan barbarians?  Here I am talking about before the Mongols converted to Islam.  Did the Seljuks/Ottomans, as figurehead leaders of Islam and purveyors of Jihad, feel that it was encumbant upon them to either convert the pagan Mongols or kill them off if they resisted?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 11:22
Cagatai and Golden Horde Khanates became Turkic.Ilhans became Persian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_oz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 13:57
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

I have a question about the Mongols and cultural assimilation. 
 
We know at first that the Mongols were hated and feared by the ancient civilizations whom they met and subsequently conquered, such as Persia and China.  However, when the Seljuks and Ottomans came into contact with the Mongols (both ethnic Mongols and the Turks with them), what did they think of them culturally?  Were they uncouth pagan barbarians?  Here I am talking about before the Mongols converted to Islam.  Did the Seljuks/Ottomans, as figurehead leaders of Islam and purveyors of Jihad, feel that it was encumbant upon them to either convert the pagan Mongols or kill them off if they resisted?
 


Mongols were infidel like all non-muslims for them.They have fought with them but mongols have been turkified finally.
Mongols collapsed Great Seljuk Empire,pillaged anatolia,captured Ottoman Sultan Bayezid Han,put him in a cage but Han suicided with posion in his ring etc.
they have always fought with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 21:23
Originally posted by the_oz the_oz wrote:

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

I have a question about the Mongols and cultural assimilation. 
 
We know at first that the Mongols were hated and feared by the ancient civilizations whom they met and subsequently conquered, such as Persia and China.  However, when the Seljuks and Ottomans came into contact with the Mongols (both ethnic Mongols and the Turks with them), what did they think of them culturally?  Were they uncouth pagan barbarians?  Here I am talking about before the Mongols converted to Islam.  Did the Seljuks/Ottomans, as figurehead leaders of Islam and purveyors of Jihad, feel that it was encumbant upon them to either convert the pagan Mongols or kill them off if they resisted?
 


Mongols were infidel like all non-muslims for them.They have fought with them but mongols have been turkified finally.
Mongols collapsed Great Seljuk Empire,pillaged anatolia,captured Ottoman Sultan Bayezid Han,put him in a cage but Han suicided with posion in his ring etc.
they have always fought with them.
 
Oh, so some Mongolians were assimilated while some were brutally wiped out...
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trebtsienn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 01:42
Interesting, thanks for all the replys. I've been reading "The Mongols" by D. Morgan. It's a really good book for anyone wondering about the history of the Mongols.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 11:53
Originally posted by the_oz the_oz wrote:

Mongols were infidel like all non-muslims for them.They have fought with them but mongols have been turkified finally.
Mongols collapsed Great Seljuk Empire,pillaged anatolia,captured Ottoman Sultan Bayezid Han,put him in a cage but Han suicided with posion in his ring etc.
they have always fought with them.
 
It should be said that whereas one source reports him committing suicide through poison concealed in his ring as you say, there's another which reports Bayezid as going mad with inprisonment and bashing his brains out against the cage ribs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:10
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by the_oz the_oz wrote:

Mongols were infidel like all non-muslims for them.They have fought with them but mongols have been turkified finally.
Mongols collapsed Great Seljuk Empire,pillaged anatolia,captured Ottoman Sultan Bayezid Han,put him in a cage but Han suicided with posion in his ring etc.
they have always fought with them.
 
It should be said that whereas one source reports him committing suicide through poison concealed in his ring as you say, there's another which reports Bayezid as going mad with inprisonment and bashing his brains out against the cage ribs.
 
Wow, is that really possible?Confused
     
   
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