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Forum Lockedwhat did Genghis khan speak

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Zorigo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zorigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 19:18
Originally posted by Ave1 Ave1 wrote:

According to the book "The Mongols" written by David Morgan, if I am not mistaken, the language he spoke is an archaic form of Mongolian that still survives (although close to extinction) in portions of westen Afghanistan, notably the city of Herat.  The language, the author referred to is called "Nikudari" which was named after the popular Mongol general, Neguder. 

The language Nikudari is synonymous with Mogholi and I believe there are only about 300 speakers left, most of whom, live in the above mentioned town in the outskirts of Herat, Afghanistan.

 
Exactly any language changes as time passes. If you read Old english, it would be hard to understand. Archaic Turkic language in Orkhon inscription is very different than Modern Turkish Language.
 
You can see the differences in Archaic Mongol and Modern Mongol langauges from them given example.
The inscription can be translated in the following way:
 
In Archaic Mongolian language:-
- "Chinggis hagan-i Sartagul irgen daguliju hamug Monggol Ulus un arad-i Bukha Cotsihai hurigsan tur Esunhe Hongodorun gruban jagud guchin tabun alda dur ontudlu-ga"

It can be translated into modern Mongolian language in following way:-

-" Chinggis Haan Sartuul irgeniig daguulj buuj Hamag Mongol Ulsiin ard Buhai Sochihaid hursand Esunge Chongodorun gurban zuun guchin tavan (335) aldad onoloo"

It can translated into English in following way: -"After Chinggis Khaan conquered the Sartuul Dynasty [in Central Asia] in 1224, all Mongolian lords met on the Bukha-Sojikhai steppe. There, Yesunkhei, with a bow and arrow, hit a target from a 335-arm-span distance"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 20:54
Originally posted by Zorigo Zorigo wrote:

Originally posted by Afsar Beghi Afsar Beghi wrote:

it is not important what he was ,but he definitely spoke TURKIC. If you dont agree then show a reliable source indicating he spoke mongolian. 
 
Here you are. Reliable source indicating that he spoke Mongol language.
This inscription in "Chinggiss Stone Inscription", It was written after Chinggis Khaan conquered Khoresm and returned homeland in 1223 он.
 

- "Chinggis hagan-i Sartagul irgen daguliju hamug Monggol Ulus un arad-i Bukha Sotsihai hurigsan tur Esunhe Hongodorun gurban jagud guchin tabun alda dur ontudlu-ga"

 
If you find anything in turkic language, let me know  
 
I think Cengiz Han spoke a Turk language but his native language was a Mongol language.  I do see one word here that is used in Turkish, Ulus is the same as Ulu, meaning great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zorigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 22:39
Originally posted by Feramez Feramez wrote:

"Chinggis hagan-i Sartagul irgen daguliju hamug Monggol Ulus un arad-i Bukha Sotsihai hurigsan tur Esunhe Hongodorun gurban jagud guchin tabun alda dur ontudlu-ga"
 
I think Cengiz Han spoke a Turk language but his native language was a Mongol language.  I do see one word here that is used in Turkish, Ulus is the same as Ulu, meaning great.
 
ULUS  means STATE, PEOPLE in Mongolian language. We say - TUrk Ulus for Turkey, Kazakh Ulus -for Kazakhstan.
 
Great is In Mongolian "IKH" - Great Mongol Empire would translated into Old Mongolian - "Iegghe Monggol Ulus"
 
In modern Mongolian it would be Ikh Mongol Uls.  
 
Like Chagatain Ulus, Altan Ordin Ulus.
Even today Mongolia's official name is MONGOL ULUS.
 
 
Of course they Turko and Mongols allied and spoke each other so they had understand each other or they used translators.
 
1. Mongol and Turko clan alliance started with Kereid clan.
Chinggis Khaans' father Esugei was sworn friend (anda)  with Togrul Khan -Ong Khan of Kereid which had Christian Faith at that time.
In time of difficult, Temujin sought help from Ong Khan Togrul. Latter become Temujin ally and father -
 
2. Uigurs also came submitted to Mongols voluntarily. Chinggis Khan gave his daughter to Uigur Idikut.  
 
3. Naimans were conquered
 
and so on . Turkic clans joined mongol ranks in hundreds of thousands.
As an brillant administrator Chinggis khaan distributed submitted and conquered people among Mongol  clans. So in this way strong tribal lines were loose, no Mongol or Turko clans can rebel against Khaan.  
 
As a result in conquered territories Mongols and Turkics mixed so much.
In Mongol heartland, original Mongols stayed as Mongols upto now.
Turkic clans who managed to escape Mongol onslaught were stayed quite different such as Seljuk and predessors of Ottomans.
 
Clans mixed, that caused many condusion among nationalist, for example In Kazakhstan that many kazakh tribes are originally turkosized Mongol tribes and so on.
 
In the East with China also. Mongols also mixed with jurhens and so on.
 
 
 


Edited by Zorigo - 26-Jul-2006 at 22:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 10:15
Originally posted by SaikhaNBayar SaikhaNBayar wrote:


No, he was born in northern Khetnii, place called Deluun boldog. Why is it inhabited by Buryats?
I was under the impression that he was born in what today belongs to Dadal sum in Khentii, and that said sum was (among other groups, I assume) inhabitated by Buryats. I heard that Binder sum claims to be Chingis' birthplace, too, and apparently has a Buryat population as well.
 
But I admit I definitely might be wrong about the ethnic composition of these sums. Maybe you have some statistics?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zorigo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 20:00
Originally posted by yan. yan. wrote:

I was under the impression that he was born in what today belongs to Dadal sum in Khentii, and that said sum was (among other groups, I assume) inhabitated by Buryats. I heard that Binder sum claims to be Chingis' birthplace, too, and apparently has a Buryat population as well.
 
But I admit I definitely might be wrong about the ethnic composition of these sums. Maybe you have some statistics?
 
In Northern border of Mongolia from Bulgan Province to Dornod, Buriad Mongols settled in large number escaping from Stalin collectivization. Buriad Mongols are used to dwell near forest and rivers. Buriad Mongols in Mongolia are not separate ethnic group. They are Mongols. There are not much distinction between Buriad and Khalkh Mongols. They live side by side. There differences in their speech accent, pronounsiation of words.
 
Quote
.............The Dark and Bloody Years. Starting in 1929 Stalin imposed collectivization on Mongols as well as on other peoples under Soviet control. People were dispossessed of their farms and herds both in Buryatia and Mongolia. Opposition to collectivization was brutally crushed.
 
Many Buryats fled to Mongolia during this time, but found little support from the Choibalsan regime, which was allied with Stalin.
..................................................................................................................
................................percesution and purges.............................................
 
To this day no one really knows how many Buryats died during the purges. In Mongolia Choibalsan followed Stalin's example, and about 30,000 Mongol died, some of whom were also Buryats.
 
In addition to the purges the Buryat-Mongol Republic was stripped of about half of its land, including the west shore of Lake Baikal, Olkhon Island, Ust-Orda, and Aga. These last two regions were made Buryat autonomous orkrugs, similar to reservations, and Buryats in surrounding Russian majority areas were moved into these teritories. ...................................................................................................................
 
..................
During WWII Buryat soldiers served with distinction in the Red Army, receiving more Hero of the Soviet Union decorations than any other minority group in the USSR. However, the devastation of Russian areas in the west accelerated the migration of Russians into Siberia.
 
In 1948 Soviet authorities made further attempts to Russify Buryats and extinguish their culture.
-Traditional art forms were banned and it was forbidden to speak of Buryat traditional heroes such as Geser and Chinggis Khan.
-Control of the educational system was placed in the hands of Russians in Irkutsk.
- The official history of Buryatia spoke little of pre-protectorate times, asserting that Buryats were not Mongols but had been conquered by Mongolian feudal leaders.
-  A non-standard dialect, Khori Buryat, which is the most dissimilar to standard Mongolian of Buryat dialects became the only acceptable literary language. The idea was to create a fiction of a Buryat nationality that was non-Mongol. 
 
from
 
Present day,  due political circumstances and geographically location and long separation, Kalmyks and Buryat in Russia are consider themselves different ethnic groups. Languages is developing in its own way, still communicable.  
 
 
 

For his 800th birthday, a statue of Genghis Khan was erected in 1962 at Deluun Boldog; a place believed to be the great khan's birthplace, close to what is today Dadal sum, an attractive wooded area in North Khentii region.

 
Historians still cannot agree on where or when Chinggis Khaan was born and died.
 
From Mongolian Newspaper:- Prof A. Ochir says the hunt began in the nineteenth century, when Injinash in his novel Khokh Sudar wrote that Chinggis Khaan was born near Terguun Boldog mountain near the Onon river. Khuree Ukhaa is a strong candidate for birthplace
 
In The Secret History of the Mongols, it says, “When Esukhei returned with Tatars, including Temujin Uge and Khori Bukha, Oulen, who was then-pregnant, gave birth at Deluun Boldog, near the Onon river.
Onon Gol- near birth place of Chinggis Khaan
There is one place called Oglogchiin Kherem (wall), located between Binder Mountain and Orgon Banzat Mountain in batshireet soum (local place) of Khentii province, the "Ikhsiin Gazar" where lie the Great King's graves of Mongolia. They predict that Chinggis Khaan might also be buried in Oglogchiin Wall.

Area around Dadal, Binder and Batshireet sum along the banks of the Onon river closely associated with the life of the Great Khan.

 
 
Burkhan Khaldun Uul- where Chinggis Khaan took a refuge and ordered that The Mountain should be worshipped generation to generation. It become sacred Mountain of Mongols
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 20:37
Originally posted by Zorigo Zorigo wrote:

Originally posted by Feramez Feramez wrote:

"Chinggis hagan-i Sartagul irgen daguliju hamug Monggol Ulus un arad-i Bukha Sotsihai hurigsan tur Esunhe Hongodorun gurban jagud guchin tabun alda dur ontudlu-ga"
 
I think Cengiz Han spoke a Turk language but his native language was a Mongol language.  I do see one word here that is used in Turkish, Ulus is the same as Ulu, meaning great.
 
ULUS  means STATE, PEOPLE in Mongolian language. We say - TUrk Ulus for Turkey, Kazakh Ulus -for Kazakhstan.
 
Great is In Mongolian "IKH" - Great Mongol Empire would translated into Old Mongolian - "Iegghe Monggol Ulus"
 
In modern Mongolian it would be Ikh Mongol Uls.  
 
Like Chagatain Ulus, Altan Ordin Ulus.
Even today Mongolia's official name is MONGOL ULUS.
 
 
Of course they Turko and Mongols allied and spoke each other so they had understand each other or they used translators.
 
1. Mongol and Turko clan alliance started with Kereid clan.
Chinggis Khaans' father Esugei was sworn friend (anda)  with Togrul Khan -Ong Khan of Kereid which had Christian Faith at that time.
In time of difficult, Temujin sought help from Ong Khan Togrul. Latter become Temujin ally and father -
 
2. Uigurs also came submitted to Mongols voluntarily. Chinggis Khan gave his daughter to Uigur Idikut.  
 
3. Naimans were conquered
 
and so on . Turkic clans joined mongol ranks in hundreds of thousands.
As an brillant administrator Chinggis khaan distributed submitted and conquered people among Mongol  clans. So in this way strong tribal lines were loose, no Mongol or Turko clans can rebel against Khaan.  
 
As a result in conquered territories Mongols and Turkics mixed so much.
In Mongol heartland, original Mongols stayed as Mongols upto now.
Turkic clans who managed to escape Mongol onslaught were stayed quite different such as Seljuk and predessors of Ottomans.
 
Clans mixed, that caused many condusion among nationalist, for example In Kazakhstan that many kazakh tribes are originally turkosized Mongol tribes and so on.
 
In the East with China also. Mongols also mixed with jurhens and so on.
 
 
 
Oh ok, sorry.  I really thought it meant great too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gokturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 20:59
I read a book about Mongols called "Mongol Wolf" It was about Genghis Khan and it says "Genghis Khan spoke Mongol language, but he knew and spoke Turkish(old Turkish) very well, too."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 07:11
Originally posted by Zorigo Zorigo wrote:

 
In Northern border of Mongolia from Bulgan Province to Dornod, Buriad Mongols settled in large number escaping from Stalin collectivization. Buriad Mongols are used to dwell near forest and rivers. Buriad Mongols in Mongolia are not separate ethnic group. They are Mongols. There are not much distinction between Buriad and Khalkh Mongols. They live side by side. There differences in their speech accent, pronounsiation of words.
That's what I thought, too. Except that I don't really believe the Buryats living along the border only entered the area in the 1920s.
 
From what I have heard, the Soviets wouldn't really accept if people escaped the collectivization. They did even enter Mongolia with military units to hunt down and massacre refugees.
 
Thanks for the pictures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2006 at 12:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2006 at 09:27
Ulus is Turkic word for a group of people. Ul from the meaning of "base or stem". 
 
When claiming some words to be Mongolian, don't forget that there are plenty of Turkic loan words in Monglian. Linguistics even suggest the struture of Monglian language was changed to be Altaic after the Turkic rulings.
 
Chengishan surley spoke Mongolian as a mother toungue or else his empire wouldn't have been callled Mongol Empire.  but he could be bilingual in Turkic, as there were other strong Turkic tribes with close contact.
 
It was said that Chengishans mother were captured by Naiman, and then she came back pregnant, which was not proved at all. However, Chengishan's oldest son Jochi was really  came to this world this way (by Merkit), and the meaning of his name is 'Guest", AFAIK.
 


Edited by barbar - 03-Aug-2006 at 02:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SaikhaNBayar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 09:59
Chinggis khan was the one who ordered Tatatunga to create new writing script for mongols, which is Uigurjin bichig. If he prefered and spoke turkic , why didn't he make turkic script? and why is uigurjin used since then ?

Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

Ulus is Turkic word for a group of people. Ul from the meaning of "base or stem". 
 
When claiming some words to be Mongolian, don't forget that there are plenty of Turkic loan words in Monglian. Linguistics even suggest the struture of Monglian language was changed to be Altaic after the Turkic rulings.
 
Chengishan surley spoke Mongolian as a mother toungue or else his empire wouldn't have been callled Mongol Empire.  but he could be bilingual in Turkic, as there were other strong Turkic tribes with close contact.
 
It was said that Chengishans mother were captured by Naiman, and then she came back pregnant, which was not proved at all. However, Chengishan's oldest son Jochi was really  came to this world this way (by Kereiyt), and the meaning of his name is 'Guest", AFAIK.
 

yes, ul (suuri ; ул суурь) means BASE in mongolian language too. And don't forget modern mongol language and language back then are different, changed a lot. Normal people can't understand what written in Secret history of mongols originally. But surely it was written by Mongol (maybe Shihi hutag). And also don't forget mongol language is once influenced by russians, changed uigurjin to cyrillic. Compare Inner Mongolians and Mongolians speaking accent. It was same before, but now.....

So there are many mongol words used during chinggis khan's life and after... so don't say we don't use them because they are not mongol words...



Edited by SaikhaNBayar - 30-Jul-2006 at 10:08
The 800th Anniversary of the Great Mongolian State. 2006
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 18:52
How to explain that all Turkic geographical names of the Secret History were renamed by Khalkha-Mongols? Even Genghis Khan's sacred mountain - Burkhan-Khaldun!
Why Genghis Khan's "Mongols" were able to communicate easily with Turkic tribes - Kereits, Naimans, Qongyrats, Merkits, Tatars, etc., and at the same time they had huge cultural and lingusitic problem with Khori-Toumats - ancestors of modern Buryats, who are very close to modern Khalkha-Mongols?
Why Khalkha-Mongols bared access for foreign archeologists to the recently found tomb of Genghis Khan (ostensibly "for conservation")? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SaikhaNBayar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 09:41
Who are you asking from? :)

i don't know how they communicated... do you know?

The 800th Anniversary of the Great Mongolian State. 2006
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bilguun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 18:56
HOoh naduulii chin jinhene alchmaar garuud uu guu yu? Bitii sh** Chinggis Haan Mongoloor yaridag. Zailtsan muu bandaashnuud. Saikhanbayar Zorigoo GOOD WORK!!! NAAD hachin turguudiin amii ni tagla!!!
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