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Forum LockedWhat decides ethnicity and nationality?

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Theodore Felix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What decides ethnicity and nationality?
    Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 13:18
    I left this without a poll since its a very complex question in general. But what in your mind is your national bretheren in this modern day and age, especially in Europe. Id say US excluded. But doesnt need to be.
Does blood play a factor? Race? History? Religion? What can you exclude? What would you idealize?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 13:55
Ethnicity has nothing to do with blood and DNA.Now  according to the current international thinking  there are two main models of nation:

(a) the territorial and civic model and
(b) the ethnic-genealogical model.

The theory of Renan belongs to the western civic model, as per which a historic territory, legal-political community, legal-political equality, and common civic culture and ideology are required for the formation of a nation. According to the alternative ethnic model, which is supported by one of the most prominent modern theorists of nationalism, Anthony Smith, nation as a community is based on the common predecessors, the common descent of the different ethnic groups and their native culture.
The nations with an ethnic or genealogical basis seek to expand so as to include the ethnically kin populations that are beyond the current borders of the ethnic nation, along with the territories where they live, or aim for the creation of a much larger ethic-national state, merging into other culturally and ethnically kin states. This is the case of the pan-nationalism of the unredeemed and all other kinds of pan-nationalisms.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 14:02
Nationality is a easy one, most countries have quite comprehensive legislation covering it, admittedly different in each. Personally I subscribe to the, what does it say in your passport? Solution. Saves a lot of trouble.
 
Ethnicity is one of those highly abstract terms that has no actual meaning, it is usually used withing a paradign. Often the paradign itself is that of a person with an ideaology and agenda to promote this ideology. The word gleans it's meaning from the paradign it is used in, so changes users to user, paradign to paradign.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 14:59
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Nationality is a easy one, most countries have quite comprehensive legislation covering it, admittedly different in each. Personally I subscribe to the, what does it say in your passport? Solution. Saves a lot of trouble.
 
Sounds like a good solution to me: simple and universal.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 04:58
A dog is a creature that is recognised as a dog by another dog.

A member of an ethnicity is a person that is recognised as a member by another member
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 09:43
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

A dog is a creature that is recognised as a dog by another dog.

A member of an ethnicity is a person that is recognised as a member by another member
 
whether or whether not they recognise themselves?
 
Or do both parties have to agree?
 
 


Edited by Paul - 11-Jun-2006 at 09:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sain Bain Nuu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 11:40
Originally posted by Theodore Felix Theodore Felix wrote:

     But what in your mind is your national bretheren in this modern day and age,
 
anyone who has money and is willing to share it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 07:53
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

A dog is a creature that is recognised as a dog by another dog.

 
Hmmm... From just casual observation it would seem that dogs frequently mistake all manner of odd objects for other dogs Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:08
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bored! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:54
Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

Ethnicity has nothing to do with blood and DNA.Now  according to the current international thinking  there are two main models of nation:

(a) the territorial and civic model and
(b) the ethnic-genealogical model.

The theory of Renan belongs to the western civic model, as per which a historic territory, legal-political community, legal-political equality, and common civic culture and ideology are required for the formation of a nation. According to the alternative ethnic model, which is supported by one of the most prominent modern theorists of nationalism, Anthony Smith, nation as a community is based on the common predecessors, the common descent of the different ethnic groups and their native culture.
The nations with an ethnic or genealogical basis seek to expand so as to include the ethnically kin populations that are beyond the current borders of the ethnic nation, along with the territories where they live, or aim for the creation of a much larger ethic-national state, merging into other culturally and ethnically kin states. This is the case of the pan-nationalism of the unredeemed and all other kinds of pan-nationalisms.

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arbėr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 19:30
Unfortunately a dog is a creature which is known as a dog by  A MAN.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote machine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 05:03
Race and religion play a huge factor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 05:26
Ethnicity is primarily culture, language and to an extent, ancestry. But ultimatly its background/envirmoment that determines how individuals and groups will percieve and qualify any given ethnicity. And this is where things get interesting, especialy when you consider that a growing number of people are in a position where they will have multiple over-lapping identities that trenscend traditional notions of ethnicity.
Are English Jews ethnicly English but religiously Jewish, or Ethnicly Jewish and English by nationality? Or perhaps Anglo-Jewish, an over-lapping sub-ethnicity, and British by nationality?
Ask a dozen English Jews, get a dozen answers.

Religion trandscends ethnicity, generaly speaking, so it only plays an important role in specific circumstances, where the notion of ethnic/group identiy is bound closely to religion, as say in N. Ireland or Bosnia.
Race is the same, its only an important factor in racialised societies where atitudes to ethnicity are defined racialy. Being 'Black' is a pretty significant ethnic identifier in the US, but generaly less helpfull in a large multi-ethnic African country like say Nigeria, however, being a Yoruba retains its significance where-ever you live, even if your hosts generaly can't be arsed to aknowledge it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2006 at 01:13
Originally posted by Theodore Felix Theodore Felix wrote:

    I left this without a poll since its a very complex question in general. But what in your mind is your national bretheren in this modern day and age, especially in Europe. Id say US excluded. But doesnt need to be.
Does blood play a factor? Race? History? Religion? What can you exclude? What would you idealize?
 
Imagination, both nationality and ethnicity are figments of the collective human imgagination and irrelevent defects in our development as individuals, none the less they are useful tools for taking control and using the "other" as means on retaining that control. 
 
Thus I wholly support these imaginary concepts as a means for great people to exert will over the mob, but those in the mob that actually believe this crap are to be despised.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 00:52
So Whites, Blacks, and Asians are just illusions we all see? They are nothing but our imagination? Is that not what a ethnic group is, gentetic diversity? We are all human, but there are differences. There are races, but there are even small changes within races. It's just a name for groups of people. I believe it first was a term for race and ancestry and so on, but now could have cultural meaning too.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 02:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 15:51
i don t think religion plays an important part in this, i am not saying it isnt, just take a look at mid-eastern countries
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 04:41
Quote So Whites, Blacks, and Asians are just illusions we all see? They are nothing but our imagination? Is that not what a ethnic group is, gentetic diversity?


White isn't an ethnicity, ditto for Black or Asian. It becomes a label of convenience in a society that is accustomed to grouping people on that basis, but thats pretty much it.
In London, Imran Khan is Asian, but in the US, generaly he isn't, because he doesn't look like Jackie Chan. Where-ever he goes, he is Pakistani, and whatever his ethnicity is (Pushtan?).
And no, ethnicity is so much more than mere genetic diversity, if genetic diversity is so important, why settle for bland colour codes?

Quote i don t think religion plays an important part in this, i am not saying it isnt, just take a look at mid-eastern countries


Religion plays a part, but its most pronounced in places where it seperates people who are otherwise the same people, namely, it adds another cultural/ideological layer to an identity that sets them apart and in affect creates a seperate ethnicity.
It doesn't always happen, but it can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 07:13
For me the point is clear. The world is divided between locals and foreigners.
 
People usually think:
 
This is my land, so why those alliens come here, who invited them?
 
Then discrimination starts because of looks, religion, accent, cloths, etc., which are just justifications of hate, rather than the origin. The origin is the presence of foreigners in our own living space.
 
In the case of Blacks in the U.S., they have never been considered "locals" by the White people. That's the origin of the problem, I believe, rather than superficial things like the color of skin. Racism is just another excuse.
 
Pinguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 12-Nov-2006 at 07:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 05:00
Quote In the case of Blacks in the U.S., they have never been considered "locals" by the White people. That's the origin of the problem, I believe, rather than superficial things like the color of skin. Racism is just another excuse


Do Chileans regard Natives or Blacks as locals ?
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