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Forum LockedWarsaw uprising, 1944

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Huscarl View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 00:08
Poland, the very reason that WWII began- Britain declares war on Nazi Germany because she invaded that ally- despite herself not being ready for war.

Yet only five years later, the British and the Americans (via Churchill and Roosevelt) betrayed the huge and effective armed civilian rebellion in Warsaw, Autumn 1944 by acquiescing to Stalin's demands of sovereignty over a post-war Poland. Stalin halts Gen.Rossokosvsky only miles away from Warsaw, the suspicion being that he allowed the nazis to wipe out all rebels in order to make his own future rule there easier?

Meanwhile, Polish civilians live a brutal subterranean existence to avoid German artillery and aerial bombing as their men & womenfolk above initially win against the nazis. But Hitler orders in two more, notorious nazi divisions, who ruthlessly suppress their opponents with executions, rapes and other atrocities as the mighty Red Army does nothing. They also have orders to raze Warsaw to the ground. Destruction units blast buildings apart and use flamethrowers.

The Soviets massacre 22,000 Polish Army officers at Katin, and both Ike and Churchill pressure the exiled Polish Govt to keep quiet in order to appease Joe Stalin and maintain an already uneasy alliance.

Under allied pressure, and that of the resisting Poles and their Govt in exile in London, Stalin finally drops supplies and outdated arms, though without parachutes, and over 80% are useless or drop into nazi hands. Furious, the allied leaders order parachuted drops of their own, but end up in German hands again.

After 63 heroic days, the Poles surrendered to a nazi Army that had regained control of the torn city. Over 250,000 Polish civilians had been killed, and the allied leaders sold Poland out to Stalin.

Could the West have done much more at this point?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WolfHound85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 04:29
Well this is a tough subject but the West needed the Soviets to crush the Nazis so unfortunately they allowed Stalin to commit atrocities in Poland. Its a shame you would think the allies would utilize the first Independent Polish Parachute Brigade to liberate Poland. However the western nations were more concerned about winning the war then liberating Poland. Of course Stalin allowed the city to be destroyed. The intelligentsia and Poland Home army was a threat to Stalin's goal of puppet state. Which can obviously be seen at the massacre of Katyn. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2009 at 06:14
The Soviets had three army groups (fronts) within a stone's throw from Warsaw. They controlled land as far as Lublin if I am not mistaken (150km from Warsaw in July 44). If they even mobalised one of those fronts the Germans would have stopped the massacre and went on the counter offensive but it suited the Russian all too well.
 
The Germans will exhaust themselves by crushing the revolution, what was left from Polish intelligensia, economy and nationalist leader will be dead or distroyed and Stalin will finally step in as liberator and tell the people "I wanted to save you but dudes, it was the wehrmacht, the defeated every attempt we made to break to you".
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huscarl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 22:36
Are we in the west as guilty as Stalin in not helping those brave Poles?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dacian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 02:07
history and ethics pulled the worst joke on the poles starting with ww2 no doubt about that.

after being a victim from the start, fighting on the good side's good side (western allies), being attacks by the russians also etc etc (the actual list is huge) they end up losing 50years under comunist

its the tale of the most unfair decision following the most ethical and honorable of the choice that has happend in the modern history and warsaw uprising is just the event that summarizes it all

and no i'm not polish or have anything to do with them but the ethical aspect and the "payment" for it in this story is just unbelievable when you look at the whole picture

yet even today they don't broadcast the whole story to the world (but this is a eastern european "quality" so I can't actually blame them for that).


still I belive there is no cleaner conscience than of the poles regarding the whole story...not that it helped, helps or will help them much
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huscarl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 10:20
I agree, their run of bad luck seems very tragic.

Other than beating the cancer that was Hitler, what was the point of WWII for the British? We went to war because of Poland, yet "sold them down the river" and betrayed them to yet another brutal and oppressive regime for decades!

Maybe only the jews and black slaves had a worse experience?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRedBaron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 10:21
Originally posted by WolfHound85 WolfHound85 wrote:

Its a shame you would think the allies would utilize the first Independent Polish Parachute Brigade to liberate Poland.
 
Why?
 
What use would that have been?
 
1 - How would you get them there and where would you land them?
 
2 - What use would a lightly equipped Airborne Brigade have been that was unable to be re-supplied?
 
3 - What use would it have been to send these men to a pointless death other than to try and make some token gesture?
 
 
I think it would have been more criminal to use them. They would have been wiped-out and the losses in getting them there would have been huge.
 
The option of their use was never considered as it was not feasible and strategically pointless. It would have just cost more mens lives.
 
The only ones in a position to do anything were the Russians... and it suited them not to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRedBaron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 10:23
Originally posted by Huscarl Huscarl wrote:



Other than beating the cancer that was Hitler, what was the point of WWII for the British?
 
Other than Hitler?
 
I would say thats a pretty good reason and the only one you really need.
 
Unless you think he wasnt that bad...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huscarl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 12:11
Originally posted by TheRedBaron TheRedBaron wrote:

Originally posted by Huscarl Huscarl wrote:



Other than beating the cancer that was Hitler, what was the point of WWII for the British?
 
Other than Hitler?
 
I would say thats a pretty good reason and the only one you really need.
 
Unless you think he wasnt that bad...


Yes, of course, I should have phrased it differently to say "why declare war because of the invasion of Poland only to finally betray that nation"?

It's the politically calculating manner in which the west handled it, and the Katyn massacre, however much Stalin's forces were needed.

I believe my views on Hitler are quoted in your own reply!


Edited by Huscarl - 11-Jun-2009 at 12:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 12:40
Poland's geopolitical location has made it a sacrificial lamb on negotiating tables throughout history.

In WW2 Poland was sacrificed twice. First to not provoke the Germans, second to have Soviet invade Germany. The latter was in perfect accordance with the Allies' grand strategy but blaming the Allies for it is like blaming a rabbit for not rescuing a fellow rabbit from a wolf; there was nothing else they could realistically do. Many do not realize just how weak the West was until the later stages of the war. The armies of f.ex. the US and Britain were nothing compared to that of Nazi Germany or Soviet and in a land war even the Poles stood a better chance of defending themselves. Anything resembling victory for the West hinged on Germany and Soviet fighting each other, ideally with Soviet as the victor (hence why Soviet was given invaluable industrial support), and it goes without saying that the countries caught between them would be impossible to keep out of the meat grinder. Tragic, unjust and unavoidable.

In the end however the Western strategy worked to perfection. The weakest party of the war ended up as the victor and though it took time Poland eventually got what it should have had all along.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 13:36
It puzzles me how anyone can see the British Commonwealth and the USA as the 'weakest party' in WW2. The rich countries (once they'd absorbed the initial attack) won. How often has it ever happened otherwise? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WolfHound85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2009 at 15:31
Originally posted by TheRedBaron TheRedBaron wrote:

Originally posted by WolfHound85 WolfHound85 wrote:

Its a shame you would think the allies would utilize the first Independent Polish Parachute Brigade to liberate Poland.
 
Why?
 
What use would that have been?
 
1 - How would you get them there and where would you land them?
 
2 - What use would a lightly equipped Airborne Brigade have been that was unable to be re-supplied?
 
3 - What use would it have been to send these men to a pointless death other than to try and make some token gesture?
 
 
I think it would have been more criminal to use them. They would have been wiped-out and the losses in getting them there would have been huge.
 
The option of their use was never considered as it was not feasible and strategically pointless. It would have just cost more mens lives.
 
The only ones in a position to do anything were the Russians... and it suited them not to.

I was just saying the creation of the first independent parachute brigade was to liberate Poland. But when Roosevelt/Truman allowed uncle Joe to keep eastern Europe and go to Berlin first, it showed that the allies were willing to give up Eastern Europe. So that Nazism can be defeated. Plus even if the independent brigade made it to Poland, Stalin would probably have killed them anyway. I wish the allies would of taken Berlin and have a united Germany and could have hoped to stop Stalin from spreading his influence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRedBaron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2009 at 15:38
I dont think the Allies would have wanted to get involved in the urban battle for Berlin... The losses would have been very heavy.
 
Though the romantic notion of all Free-Polish formations was the liberation of Poland, only the First Polish Army serving in the Red Army went through Poland and took part in the capture of Berlin. Those on the Allied side had to take their revenge on those German units they came up against.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2009 at 17:18
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Poland's geopolitical location has made it a sacrificial lamb on negotiating tables throughout history.

In WW2 Poland was sacrificed twice. First to not provoke the Germans, second to have Soviet invade Germany. The latter was in perfect accordance with the Allies' grand strategy but blaming the Allies for it is like blaming a rabbit for not rescuing a fellow rabbit from a wolf; there was nothing else they could realistically do. Many do not realize just how weak the West was until the later stages of the war. The armies of f.ex. the US and Britain were nothing compared to that of Nazi Germany or Soviet and in a land war even the Poles stood a better chance of defending themselves. Anything resembling victory for the West hinged on Germany and Soviet fighting each other, ideally with Soviet as the victor (hence why Soviet was given invaluable industrial support), and it goes without saying that the countries caught between them would be impossible to keep out of the meat grinder. Tragic, unjust and unavoidable.

In the end however the Western strategy worked to perfection. The weakest party of the war ended up as the victor and though it took time Poland eventually got what it should have had all along.
 
The Soviets were a shell by the end of WW II, much of the army was made up of juveniles and geriatrics due to the huge personel loses of the war. With a population approximately that of the U.S., the Soviet Union lost more men than the entire U.S. Army at the end of the war. The Soviet economy and society in general were in tatters in 1945 while the U.S. was the production center of the world both in industry and agriculture. In what sense were the western allies the weakest party?
 
As for the western strategy, it was to defeat the Nazis then the Japanese. Until it was attacked by a former semi-ally, the Soviet strategy was to let the western nations destroy each other and had been for almost two decades.
 
 
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