History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedVistula Veneti

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678
Author
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 3963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 19:43
As I mentioned about two centuries before Jordanes, Armenan historian Moses Khorenatsi has also mentioned a Venadi tribe alongside Bulgars in the southern Russia who conquered the northern part of Armenia (modern Vanadzor).
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 300
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 10:18
There is a common thread running from the northern Adriatic to the Baltic. This consists of high frequencies of two paternally inherited genetic markers HG2 and HG3 and the use of Sloven in the names of peoples from the Baltic coast to the Adriatic: Slovenes of Novgorod, the Slovincy (or Kashubians) of the Baltic area, the Slovaks (adj. slovensky) and the Slovenes of Slovenia, along the Amber Road of the Roman era. This is also the area where ancient historians locate Veneti or Venethi (Šavli 1996 pp. 77–83, Rosser 2000, Curta 2001 p. 344).

Review of Literature:
Russian historian Pavel Tulaev notes that many Russians visiting Finland and Estonia are surprised that Russians are called vene or venelane in Estonia and venaja in Finland. Also, in St. Petersburg, Russia, members of pagan cults still consider themselves as Veneti (Tulaev & Smolej 2000). The Estonian-English Dictionary (Saagpakk 1992) has a number of entries that are of interest for Slavic-Venetic connection:
vend-brother; on the father’s side; fra, brother; monk friar; Christian brother
vend-Wend; venedid-Wends
vendkond-fraternity; vendlik-brotherly; vendlus-brotherhood, fraternity
vene-dugout
vene-Russian; Muscovite; Russian language
veneedid-Wends
veneedid-Veneti
Venetsia-Venice; venetsia-Venetian; venetslane-Venetian
venelane-Russian; Muscovite; venelased-the Russians
venelanna-Russian woman
Venemaa-Russia
venestama-to Russianize, to Russify
venestuma-to become Russian
veneusuline-of the Greek Orthodox faith
venevastane-anti Russian

The Oxford International Dictionary of the English Language (Little 1957) entries are informative in defining the linguistic affiliation of the Wends:
Wend, sb.(substantive) [ad.(adaptation) of G. (German) Wende, Winde, (pl. Wenden, Winden = OHG. Winida, OE. Winedas, Weonodas) of obsc. origin.] A member of the Slavonic race now inhabiting Lusatia in the east of Saxony, but formerly extending over Northern Germany; a Sorb.
Wendic, [f. (formed on) Wend sb.+ IC.] A. adj. Of or pertaining to the Wends. B. sb. The language of the Wends, Sorabian
Wendish, [f. as prec. + ISH, or ad.G. Wendisch] A. adj. Of or pertaining to the Wends. B. sb. The language of the Wends, especially the Sorabian tongue spoken in Saxony 1617.
Wend, (obsolete) 2. To turn from one condition or form into another; to change to or into -1579.

The verb “wend” was already obsolete by the year 1579. It is possible to speculate that Latin “vendere” to sell, vend may be a legacy of the Venetic traders, just as ‘vandalism’ is a reminder of the behavior of Vandals more than 1500 years ago. It was Veneti and their navy on the Atlantic coast that won the admiration of Caesar. We learn from him of their skills as sailors and traders and from their voyages to Britain and of their control of the harbours on the Atlantic coast. In addition to Veneti and Venelli on the Atlantic coast, Caesar also mentions in his accounts Carnutes and Andes where he took his legions for the winter quarters, as he went on his way to Italy and Illyricum (Caesar).

Florin Curta, a mediaeval historian, provides us with some historical references to Venethi: >>Jordanes calls one and the same river Viscla when referring to Sclavenes, and Vistula, when speaking of Venethi. This was interpreted as an indication of two different sources. In the case of Venethi, the source may have been an ancient similar to Ptolemy’s geography. It is equally possible, however, Jordanes was inspired here by Tacitus, for, like him, he constantly associates Venethi with Aesti..... Jordanes, as if not willing to repeat himself, sends us back to the “catalogue of nations” for further information on Venethi..... In the “catalogue of nations”, we are told that the Venethi were “chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes,” which could only mean that Venethi were subdivided into two categories, the Sclavenes and the Antes<<Curta>>The Antes were constantly allies of the Romans, while Sclavenes always appeared on the side of their enemy<<Curta>>Following his victory over Venethi, Ermenaric subdued the Aesti, “who dwell on the farthest shore of the German Ocean”<<Curta>>Fredegar had two apparently equivalent terms for the same ethnie: Sclauos coinomento Winedos. There are variants for both terms, such as Sclavini or Venedi....(T)he Wends, and not the Slavs, made Samo their king<<Furthermore>>’Wends’ and ‘Slavs’ were already in use when Fredegar wrote Book IV. They first appear in Jonas of Bobbio’s Life of St. Columbanus, written sometime between 639 and 643. According to Jonas, Columbanus had once thought of preaching to the Wends, who were called Slavs ([termini]Venetiorum qui et Sclavi disweetieur) (Curta 2001 p. 60).

Curta is also of the opinion that: >>Common Slavic itself may have been used as a lingua franca within and outside Avar qaganate<<Based>>...we may presume that duke Raduald learned how to speak Slavic in Friuli. His Slavic neighbours in the north apparently spoke the same language as the Dalmatian Slavs<< (Curta 2001 p.345).

Canadian linguist Tom Priestly in his paper On the development of the Windischenteorie concludes that, the root vind-vend-in Windisch had been used by German-speakers perhaps for two millennia and that it probably originates in the Latin ethnonym Veneti and was long used to denote Slavic peoples in general...Before 1800 Windisch seems to have been simple ethnonym, used to refer to Slovene-speakers in Carinthia and Styria in distinction to those in Carniola, who were called Krainer (Priestly 1997).

Veneti from other Historical Documents:
Canadian anthropologist George Sotiroff cites the data provided by ancient authors such as Pliny the Elder who recorded that Venetians occupied a sizable portion of Central Europe, along the Vistula, right up to the spot where the river flows into the Baltic Sea. This is also the area in which Pliny found the Vandili, an obvious diminutive of Vandi, or Wends, as the Germans to this day call the Slavonic minority in Brandenburg and Saxony (Sotiroff 1971).

Other ancient Greek authors such as Homer and Herodotus along with Roman writers such as Tacitus, Pliny the Elder, Caesar, Ptolemy and Casius Dio refer to Veneti in their accounts of the ancient world. From their accounts, it can be seen that their settlements were widespread and were found: on the shores of the Black Sea, the upper Adriatic, the Atlantic coast, the Baltic Sea, and also in other parts of Europe (Šavli 1996).

In addition, Sotiroff summarizes ancient historical data and from his summary of the ancient historical accounts we learn that, on the coast of the Black Sea in the present day Turkey, east of Sinope, in the region once called Paphlagonia, the most conspicuous ethnic group were, according to Homer, called Eneti. In the Trojan War, according to Livy, these people fought on the side of the Trojans, against the Greeks. After the Trojan war, the Trojan prince Antenor with the group of friends joined forces with Eneti, who had been out of Paphlagonia and, having lost their king Pylamenes, at Troy, wanted someone to lead them as well as somewhere to settle. He penetrated to the coast of the Adriatic and expelled the Euganei, a tribe living between the Alps and the sea, and occupied the territory with a mixed population of Trojans and Eneti. The combined peoples came to be known as Venetians.

Why Venetians and not Enetians? Sotiroff provides the explanation. Most of the early and accessible sources of history of these people were written in Greek. This has created many spelling problems with the transliteration of foreign names, since, many of the ”barbarian” tongues were rich in consonants indistinguishable to Greek ears. One of these consonants was “v”, which the Greeks rendered as “ou”, as “w” (beta), or as rough breathing (spiritus asper), with whatever vowel came next. Thus the name Veneti was bound to appear, in Greek books, as Oueneti, as Beneti, or as Heneti, i.e. Eneti, where the initial “e” is aspirate. The name actually appears in all three forms. In Homer, the initial “e” is an aspirate, so the name should be romanized as Heneti. Polybius spells the name, Ouenetoi—we would say Veneti. Strabo and Julian the Apostate stick to the Homeric form. In Procopius, the name appears as Beneti. John the Lydian hesitates between Heneti and Beneti (Sotiroff 1971).
 
Joseph Skulj
 
 


Edited by Boreasi - 27-Mar-2009 at 10:49
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 300
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 10:36
The Paleolithic Continuity Theory:
 
Mario Alinei’s Paleolithic Continuity Theory (PCT) posits that, the present day inhabitants of northern Europe have lived in the same territories, since Neolithic, possibly since Mesolithic ages i.e., for at least 10,000 years. As part of PCT, Alinei also includes Proto-Hungarians as having arrived in Europe in the Neolithic and to have remained in Europe since then, without hiatus. The first wave was to have taken place during the Neolithic and was then followed, much later, by the second invasion of Pannonia in the 9th century; ostensibly still occupied by the Proto-Hungarians.
 
However, Vuga, on the basis of linguistics, disputes Alinei’s hypothesis regarding the autochthonous presence of Proto-Hungarians in Pannonia, prior to the arrival of Hungarians in the 9th century (Vuga 2004). Furthermore, from the genetic perspective, Y-chromosome HG1, HG2, HG3 frequencies and absence of HG16 in extant Hungarian populations makes them similar to the surrounding Slavic populations, although they speak Uralic language, an ‘elite dominance’ legacy of the invading Magyars in the 9th century (Rosser 2000).

The presence, high frequency and distribution of Y-chromosome genetic markers HG2 and HG3 generally support Alinei’s Continuity Theory with respect to Slavic speakers in Europe. At the same time the high frequency of HG16 in the Finno-Ugric populations in the Baltic area also supports his hypothesis regarding the autochthonous presence of Uralic populations north of the Carpathian Mountains.

The frequency and the distribution of Y-chromosome genetic marker HG16 gives credence to the hypothesis that historically, the settlement area of Proto-Finno-Ugric speaking populations may have been much more widespread than is the situation now. This is evident from the high frequencies of this genetic marker, amongst the populations inhabiting eastern Baltic and Eastern European Plain including Poland, Russia and
Ukraine (Rosser 2000, Villems 2002).
 
However, it should be emphasized, that this genetic marker has not been detected in the populations of Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Kosovo, Slovenia, Bavaria and Italy. It is also noteworthy, that Rosser et al. have not detected HG16 in the population of Budapest (Rosser 2000, Marjanovic 2005, Peričić 2005). It should be noted that, Guglielmino et al., on the basis of gene frequencies, show that the extant population of Budapest is genetically much closer to the Slavs, than to Hungarian ethnic groups such as Kiskun, Csango, Szekely, Matyo, Paloc, Nagykun and Orseg. They estimate that the Uralic admixture rate in the Hungarians is ~13%, but only one Hungarian ethnic group Orseg resembles the Uralic populations (Guglielmino 2000).

The frequency of HG16 in Bratislava, Slovakia is 3% (Rosser 2000). This may be attributed to the aftermath of the battle of Mohacs in 1526, when King Louis, most of the Hungarian nobility and thousands of soldiers were killed. After the battle, the Hungarian nobility, artisans and merchants moved to Bratislava and it became the capital of Hungarian Kingdom for almost 300 years. It is thus possible that the Hungarian nobility and their elites brought the HG16 Uralic marker to Bratislava from Hungary.

Nevertheless, the absence of the HG16 genetic marker in Hungary, Italy and all of the Balkans, casts doubts upon Alinei’s hypothesis, that Hungarians were autochthonous in Pannonia prior to their invasion in the 9th century. Had they been there for millennia, one would expect that the frequency of Uralic genetic marker would be approaching that of the Baltic populations, or at least the Slavic populations north of the Carpathian Mountains.

It appears that the Carpathian Mountains demarcate the southern boundary of the HG16; and Bratislava, Slovakia is the most southerly location of HG16 in central Europe. Based on genetic evidence, it is very unlikely that, Finno-Ugric speaking populations are autochthonous south of Carpathian Mountains and that they share a common origin with the Etruscan populations of Italy.

Enigmatically Italians and Turkish speaking Chuvash share HG26, at 6% and 18% respectively. HG26 has been found at the highest frequency in Altaic language family Chuvash at 18% and Turks at 5%; Hg26 is widely distributed and is also found in Estonians at 5%, Ossetians and Cypriots at 4%, Portuguese and Greeks at 3%, Romanians, Georgians, Armenians, Norwegians at 2%, Slovaks, Yugoslavs [Serbs], East Anglians and Russian at 1% (Rosser 2000).

Estonian:
Estonian belongs to the Finno-Ugric branch of the Uralic languages, together with Finnish. Livonian, Votic, and a part of western Finnish, forms the southwestern branch of the Balto-Finnic languages. The other, the northeastern branch of Finnic consists of the greater part of Finnish and of Ingrian, Karelian, Olonetsian, Ludic and Vepsian. Other more distantly related Finno-Ugric languages comprise the Saami languages, Mari, Moksha, Komi and Hungarian (Raun & Saarente 1965, Laitinen 2002).According to the prevailing assumptions, the Finno-Ugric people lived together in the neighborhood of the Volga prior to the Proto-Finnic period. During the Proto-Finnic period Baltic-Finnic contacts began. Those Balts were the relatives of the present-day Lithuanians and Latvians. At that time the Finnic peoples must have spread over a large area comprising parts of the present-day Latvia, all of Estonia, Karelia and parts of Finland (Raun & Saareste 1965). In Europe, the genetic data shows even wider influence of the Finnic peoples. This is based on Y-chromosome genetic marker HG16 which is a signature of the Finnic populations in Europe. The highest frequency of HG16 is found in Finland, the Baltic countries and among Saami, but it is also found in significant frequencies in Russia, Ukraine and Poland (Rosser 2000).
 
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 300
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 10:53
 
 
VENETI, ETRUSCANS AND GENETIC STUDIES
 
(Excerpt)
In the bone fragments, taken from the tombs of Etruria, Capua and Venetia, Vernesi et al. have found that out of 22 mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes, which they observed in 28 individuals, only two of them, CRS and 16126, occur in a sample of modern Tuscans and carried by ~14% of them. Tuscans are considered to be the descendants of the Etruscans. Both haplotypes occur in skeletons from Adria and Magliano/Marsiliana. The fragments from Magliano/Marsiliana have been dated at 7th-6th centuries B.C., whereas those from Adria are from 5th-4th centuries B.C. (Vernesi 2004).
There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians. Genetic information makes it evident, that Slovenians are indigenous to their land as indicated by the mtDNA relationship with the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans, particularly those from Adria in Veneto.
 
The Y chromosome studies revealed that Haplogroup I (Hg I), reached ~40%-50% in two distinct regions-in Nordic populations in Scandinavia and around the Dinaric Alps. Overall, this suggest, that populations carrying the Hg I could have played a central role in the process of human re-colonization of Europe, after the Ice Age (Rootsi 2004). Semino proposes that Hg I (M170) haplogroup originated in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago. This can be associated with an Epi-Gravettian culture in the area of the present-day Austria, the Czech Republic and the northern Balkans (Semino 2000). Subhaplogroup HgI1b* is the most frequent clade in eastern Europe and the Balkans; its subclade Hg I1b2 is found in Sardinia, Castille and in Basques (6%). Rootsi et al., mention and also show graphically, that Hg I1b* and Hg I1b2 co-occur west of the Italian Apennines. In the Veneto region of Italy, Hg I1b* occurs at a frequency of~10% and I1b2 is absent; only Hg I1b* is present west of the Appenines; east of the Adriatic Hg I1b* reaches its highest concentration in the north western Balkans (Rootsi 2004). This is also an indication that there is a genetic continuity, based on paternally inherited Y chromosomes, between the Slovenians and the people of Veneto region, including Adria..
 
Barbujani in his paper ''Genetics and the population history of Europe'', shows graphically a genetic continuity between the populations of the north western Balkans and the peoples now occupying the land of the ancient Veneti and Etruscans in Italy. A clear demarcation is seen in northern Italy at the western boundary of the Veneto region (Barbujani 2001). In another genetic study of the present day populations, it has been found, that the population in eastern Veneto, is more akin to Tuscanian, than to western Veneto population (Mogentale-Profizi 2001). Furthermore, Malyarchuk et al., have also noted, that Slovenians have a high frequency, at 5%, of H-subcluster 16162, which is characteristic for central and eastern European populations. In the western neighbors of Slovenians, in the Veneto speakers of Italy, this is also present, at 6% (Malyarchuk 2003).

What language did the Etruscans and/or Veneti speak? Barbujani has made an intriguing observation, that partial correlations with language are stronger for the Y chromosome than for mtDNA (Barbujani 1997). Conventional opinion has it, that Etruscans spoke a language isolate, a non-Indo-European language and that it disappeared ~90 B.C., when they lost their autonomy to the Romans (Vernesi 2004). Some Slovenian scholars held/hold a different view. Bor had postulated that Etruscans were people originally linguistically related to the Veneti; (the genetic evidence supports his hypothesis); they came from the north and in course of time merged with another people, which in turn influenced their language. By using Slavic languages, as a point of reference, he was able to decipher some of the older Etruscan inscriptions, including the Pyrgian Tablets, but not their later inscriptions. On the other hand, he was quite successful in deciphering the Venetic inscriptions (Šavli 1996).

CONCLUSION

There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians.

Genetic information makes it evident, that Slovenians are indigenous to their land as indicated by the mtDNA relationship with the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans, particularly those from Adria in Veneto.

Genetic information supports the historic quotation from the biography of St. Columban written in 615 A.D. and cited by Tomazic; "Termini Venetiorum qui et Sclavi disweetieur"-the land of the Veneti who are also called Slavs (Šavli 1996).

http://www.prah.net/europaveneta/skulj%202005/index.htm
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 17:57
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

In my opinion Getica says close to nothing about real history. Jordanes takes different people from different times as one to create his "characters", e.g. Goths with Getae and Massagetae (and possibly others), Venethi with Sclavenes and Antes. All we know of these Vistula Veneti, we know from Tacitus, Pliny and Ptolemy, Jordanes merely compiles (and sometimes misunderstands) the earlier authors in order to promote his stories (or if it's not Jordanes' compilation, then it's Cassiodorus' or Ablabius')

 
Well. My observation from reading Jordanes is just that Veneti and Antes were different tribes although belonging to the same stock of people but with quite different characteristics and habits and also inhabiting different geographical areas.
 
 
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Volkodaw View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 08-Apr-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Volkodaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2009 at 00:50

i wrote somewhere that serbs are not a slavic people at all

Volkodaw the grey dog
Back to Top
Volkodaw View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 08-Apr-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Volkodaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2009 at 00:53

is there any literature aboute this topic that i can read

Volkodaw the grey dog
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 300
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2009 at 08:20
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

In my opinion Getica says close to nothing about real history. Jordanes takes different people from different times as one to create his "characters", e.g. Goths with Getae and Massagetae (and possibly others), Venethi with Sclavenes and Antes. All we know of these Vistula Veneti, we know from Tacitus, Pliny and Ptolemy, Jordanes merely compiles (and sometimes misunderstands) the earlier authors in order to promote his stories (or if it's not Jordanes' compilation, then it's Cassiodorus' or Ablabius')

 
Well. My observation from reading Jordanes is just that Veneti and Antes were different tribes although belonging to the same stock of people but with quite different characteristics and habits and also inhabiting different geographical areas.
 
 
The historical records are actually quite clear - the Amber trade that cme out of the Estonian and Latvian coasts followd the Visula to Donau. From there it went east to the Black Sea and Egypt - as well as west to Vin-da-bona and the Adriatic Sea.
 
The first amber-trade is documented to the beginning of the Bronze Age. At the time when "Sel-van" (Sil-van-us) came to Italy and "Sil-(v)en-us" came to Greece their trade-partners in the north was called Vends or Vaner - according to the oldest sources of the NL.  Different from the ancient inhabitants of Germany and Sweden - who called them "Vaner" or "Vens" - these peoples were Fenno-Ugrians...
 
 
The names found in Ptolemy, Tacitus and later sources of the Greek and Roman tradtions may differ - but there is no question that the name Vene/Veneti are much older than the slavic language of the late iron-age. There is no need to be confused about the fact that the Slavic language came to dominate the eastern part of the Roman Empire and the Greek-Orthodox church - and thus came to override the old FU language from Ucraine to Balkan and north to Poland.  
 
But that was basicaly a result of the large politial changes and migrations that followed the downfall of the East-Roman empire and the advances of the south-eastern people of Persians, Khazarians and Oghur/Antean tribes to the west. Their consequent blend with Skytian and Sarmatians ("Huns") seem to have led to an etnic amalgation that came to be called "Skla-vans". Due to the war on Rome the Hunic tribes and the Slavon culture reached Balkan as well as Transylvania and Central Europe. 
 
The political world of Tacitus - who clearly describe the Vendi, Fenni, Guti, etc. but no Slavons - was quite different from that of Jordanes - after Attila...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Boreasi - 08-Apr-2009 at 08:28
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.