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Forum LockedUzbeks & Uyghurs: differencies & similarities

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Uzbeks & Uyghurs: differencies & similarities
    Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 19:31
I am not sure if this topic was discussed before in the forum, just i decided to share some information on reasons for that uzbeks & uyghurs  have many traditionals common for both of these two nations. Not just language, also musical instruments and dances are very the same. I don't know if uyghurs have traditional food - POLOV, or somsa, kulcha non LOL. I know it sounds funny but damn it's really interesting !
Maybe there are some other nations common with the uzbek-uyghur traditions???
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2008 at 23:35

Imagine there was no border between O'zbekistan and Sherqiy (Eastern) Turkistan, it would be like the same country, the similarities are striking, language, religion, history, cultural...



Edited by Bulldog - 10-Feb-2008 at 23:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 04:03
But there is also Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan between Uzbekistan and Eastern Turkestan.
 
Perhaps similarities are also due to the fact that Uighurs and Uzbeks historically were more sedentary people unlike their other more "nomadic" Turkic neighbors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 15:05
Quote Sarmat
Perhaps similarities are also due to the fact that Uighurs and Uzbeks historically were more sedentary people unlike their other more "nomadic" Turkic neighbors.
 
This is an important factor, the real distinction between Turkic people is if they are nomadic or sedentary, semi-nomadic or towns people, moutain men or low landers. There are generally many similarities to be found by looking at how the communities live.
 
The settled Turkic people living in todays O'zbekistan and Eastern Turkistan/Xinjiang are responsible for a large amount of the literature, civillisation, architecture etc in the region, the nomads don't have as rich a written literature however, when it comes to oral literature the Kirgiz have Manas, one of the longest epic poems in the world. The different lifestyles are the reason for this.
Where the settled peoples in what was Turkiston all were taught the same language, nomads didn't go to school and kept their dialects, this is why the settled people in central asia have such high mutual intellegiblity while the nomads have higher intellegibility with each other instead of with the city peoples.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 16:57
Yes, we uyghurs have such traditional foods. Slightly different pronunciation, Polo, Samsa, the last one I am not sure, may be southern Uyghurs have it. Couple of months ago, I invited an Uzbek student from Buxara, we had no problem with communication, he speaks Uzbek with his Buxara dialect, I speak Uyghur with my own dialect. The diffrence is like the difference among Uyghur dialects. I made polo, he said its exactly the same with theirs.

By the way, there are also some Uyghur groups who have strickingly similar traditional clothes and customs with Khazaq/ Kyrgiz people, just look at this video, then you will know what I meant. The video from Lopnur Uyghurs, they live near ancient Kiroran(roran). The Ili uyghurs have the same. But you hardly find such clothes among other Uyghur regions, and each region has its unique clothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afq-_BUEKek
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2008 at 07:02
Not to change the topic, but I'm just kind of suprised to see lots of Persian words among Uighurs. As far as I remember from other threads in AE , Uighur "hun" (blood), "lew" (lip), and now here, "Polo" and  "Samsa" are all of Persian origin.

Edited by gok_toruk - 21-Feb-2008 at 07:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2008 at 20:42

Due to highly developed literature tradition among Uyghurs, in the middle ages, Uyghur turkic became language of literature and science in central asia. Learning centers emerged in significant numbers in Turpan, Kusen, Qeshqer, Yerken, Hoten, Semerqent, Buhara, Hirat etc cities.   Arabic and Persian became compulsary subjects, as the common folks also tend to use literal language especially in the cities, you can find many Arabic and Persian words in Uyghur.  However you can also find the the Turkic counterpart of these words used at the same or more frequency. 

I also want to stress that we shouldn't attribute all the words which are used both in Persian and Turkic to Persian originality without studying the ethymology and neglecting the Turkic influence to the Persian due to more than thousand of years of rulings.  Even the most basic Persian pronoun for "I" ie "man" is Turkic origin.
  
By the way, "Lew" is not as commonly used as "Kalpuk". 
 
Uyghurs and eastern Uzbeks are the same folks in any kind of scale.
 
Northen Uzbeks might have more Qipchaq influence, while the western Uzbeks have more Oghuz  and in big cities some Tajik elements.   Uyghurs in general don't have Qipchaq, Oghuz or Tajik elements.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 01:43
Most of the city Uzbeks are in fact Tukicized Tajiks. Until the 1920th both Tajiks and city Uzbeks were both called "Sarts," there literally wasn't any difference between them and most of them used both languages (Tajik and Uzbek) interchangeably. However, due to the Soviet ethnic policy Tajik and Uzbek were distinguished. In fact, this differentiation was very artificial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 02:14
Quote Sarmat
Most of the city Uzbeks are in fact Tukicized Tajiks. Until the 1920th both Tajiks and city Uzbeks were both called "Sarts," there literally wasn't any difference between them and most of them used both languages (Tajik and Uzbek) interchangeably. However, due to the Soviet ethnic policy Tajik and Uzbek were distinguished. In fact, this differentiation was very artificial.
 
 
There has been settled Turks since the time of the Uygur and Karakhanid states.
Temur settled many semi-nomadic tribes and moved them into cities.
 
Unless Tajiks suffered wide-spread amnesia and were brainswashed en-mass into believing their mother-tongue and identity was Turkic this claim just doesn't add up.
 
The amount of times I hear such stories makes me wonder if Turkic peoples have some panarormal ability of managing to make populations of people simply forget who they are and re-programme them like robots into changing their mother tongue, identity, tribal association, sense of history and legacy...
Or do populations who encounter Turkic peoples just say, damn these guys are cool, I'm becomming one of them, sign me up LOL
 
Is there anyone who hasn't been Turkicized Confused how do Turks manage to Turkicize people without a Turkification policy is bewildering.


Edited by Bulldog - 22-Feb-2008 at 02:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 02:38
What I wrote is an accepted fact. Strange that you didn't know that. And I also don't understand why you think it's so unusual? Until Uzbekistan was artificially created in the 1920th most of the city dwellers in Samarkang and Bokhara still were Persian speaking Tajiks. By now most of them just got "Uzbekinized." But again what I wrote is just a common knowledge.
 
 
Although Altaic infiltration into Central Asia had started early,[8] as late as the 13th century AD when Turkic-speaking and Mongol armies finally conquered the entire region, the majority of Central Asia's peoples were Iranic peoples such as Sogdians, Bactrians and, more ancient, the SakaMessagetae tribes. It is generally believed that these ancient Indo-European-speaking peoples were linguistically assimilated by smaller but dominant Turkic-speaking groups while the sedentary population finally adopted the Persian language, the traditional lingua franca of the eastern Islamic lands.[9] The language-shift from Middle Iranian to Turkic and New Persian was predominantly the result of an elite dominance process.[10][11] This process was dramatically boosted during the Mongol conquest when millions were either killed or pushed further south to the Pamir region.
The modern Uzbek language is largely derived from the Chagatai language, an Eastern Turkic language which gained prominence in the Mongol Timurid Empire. The position of Chagatai (and later Uzbek) was further strengthened after the fall of the highly Persianized Timurids and the rise of the Shaybanid Uzbek Khaqanate that finally shaped the Turkic language and identity of modern Uzbeks, while the unique grammatical[12] and phonetical features of the Uzbek language as well as the modern Uzbek culture reflect the more ancient Iranic roots of the Uzbek people.[9][13][14][15


Edited by Sarmat12 - 22-Feb-2008 at 02:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 03:24
Quote And I also don't understand why you think it's so unusual? Until Uzbekistan was artificially created in the 1920th most of the city dwellers in Samarkang and Bokhara still were Persian speaking Tajiks.
 
According to who?  
 
Turkic settled populations inhabitted city regions for a millenia, there numbers increasing as time progressed. Turkic and Tajik populations were living together and still do.
 
 
Quote By now most of them just got "Uzbekinized." But again what I wrote is just a common knowledge.
 
Are they stupid, do they have a memory like a sieve that they forget who they are and their language, how exactly do people just give up who they are.
 
And the wikipedia article is not only inacurate, its contradicts itself.
 
 
 
Quote It is generally believed that these ancient Indo-European-speaking peoples were linguistically assimilated by smaller but dominant Turkic-speaking groups while the sedentary population finally adopted the Persian language, the traditional lingua franca of the eastern Islamic lands
 
So the Iranic speakers somehow became assimilate Turks, then the Turks en-mass adopted Persian...
 
What next...
 
Quote The language-shift from Middle Iranian to Turkic and New Persian was predominantly the result of an elite dominance process
 
Incredible.
So the band of Turks who somehow assimilated the Iranics, who then for some reason became Persian theeeeeen managed to make Persian speakers become Turkic speakers.
 
Oh and there is more...
 
Quote The position of Chagatai (and later Uzbek) was further strengthened after the fall of the highly Persianized Timurids
 
So the promoters of Chagtai Turki, the Timurids who made it a lingua-franca, whose reign resulted in the region being known as Turkistan, who gave rise to the likes literary masters of Turki such as AliSher Navoi, Lufti, Huseyin Baykara, who renovated reverred Turkic shrines and paid homage to Yasavi and patroned Turkic culture were actually holding the language back Confused
 
It was duriing the Timurids that Turki joined Arabic and Farsi to become one of the important languages and literatures of the muslim world.
 
Yet some half-wit writting this wikipedia article failed to realise all this.
 
The article is listed as a "B-class" article, no wonder, it needs alot more attention.


Edited by Bulldog - 22-Feb-2008 at 03:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 03:46
I just cited this article because it was a convenient reference. But I did read the same stuff in several books. And BTW, why do you think it's so important?
 
Aren't you saying that genetics, ethnic origins, aren't important as long as a particular people consider themselves to be X, or Turks in our case.
 
So, does it really makes a big difference if those Uzbeks do consider themsleves Uzbeks and speak Uzbek language, although they originate from Tajiks? They still remain Uzbeks regardless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 11:51
Quote Sarmat
Aren't you saying that genetics, ethnic origins, aren't important as long as a particular people consider themselves to be X, or Turks in our case.
 
So, does it really makes a big difference if those Uzbeks do consider themsleves Uzbeks and speak Uzbek language, although they originate from Tajiks? They still remain Uzbeks regardless.
 
We all originate from Adam and Eve if we go back far enough, some may have mixed with Tajiks, others with Arabs others with Mongols. This doesn't make O'zbek Tajiks and why are there always stories of Iranics "becomming" Turks, do Iranics have some weakness for forgetting who they are?
How can all these people be assimilated without an assimilation program while Turks didn't get assimilated?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 16:23
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Most of the city Uzbeks are in fact Tukicized Tajiks. Until the 1920th both Tajiks and city Uzbeks were both called "Sarts," there literally wasn't any difference between them and most of them used both languages (Tajik and Uzbek) interchangeably. However, due to the Soviet ethnic policy Tajik and Uzbek were distinguished. In fact, this differentiation was very artificial.


 Still Tajiks  speak  tajik and uzbeks  speak  uzbek... Uzbeks were named with such name as "sarts" not because they could speak several languages.... but mostly due to the fact that they fought against tsar army, for the honor and identity... for their lands and cities... what they owned for centuries............. I understand it is so hard for you to understand this fact. and only for that reason, russians did all they could in order to achieve, well, I can say what they achieved, in terms of national history of uzbeks.... You see everything with the eyes of russians, the way they preffered to be...... dude, don't loose the sense of reality... How it can happen all of a sudden, different nations gather and start talking in uzbek. Yes there might be a few tajiks whose generations accepted themselves as uzbeks, but i hardly believe that it has to cause to be said "most of the uzbeks are turkified tajiks, mongols or any others". There could be so a very few of them But damn not most of them.... Russians are the same......
 Try to analyze things based on real facts which can confirm your decision not  based  on just  analytical  assessments  which are not confirmed with originals....
thank you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 17:41
Process of switching from a language to another one doesn't occur in one night and can have reasonable steps. Look at the northern Africa and many parts of middle east who  adopted the arabic language and culture and became Arab. the same story happened in central Asia. many people passed this region, conquered it, settled down and left. First of all, Sassanid spread Persian language in this region and many other Iranic tribes who were not Persian started to adopt Persian language slowly. Sassanids ruled the region for 4 centuries as the result many people became bilingual or adopted Persian language.  later in 10th century Turkic Ghaznavids came to region and mass immigration of Turks occurded. After Ghaznavid many Turkic dynasties ruled the region but many of them still used the Persian as their court language. Their language were heavily influenced by Persians.There were large Iranic communities in the cities since they were city dwellers and a lot of turks still lived as nomadic or semi-nomadic, when Mongols invaded the central Asia. As you have read in history book Mongols ruined many cities and killed or enslaved almost all city dwellers in central Asia. along side of Mongol army were many Turkic soldiers and Tribes who came to the region and settled down this changes  many thing in central Asia and language was one of them. many Iranic tribes and communities were already bilingual and in places where Tukic tribes were majority the slowly switched to Turkic language, but those who  lived in area majority Persian speakers kept their language. There are many reason for changing language specially if you live in cities not being nomadic. Look at the hazaras in Afghanistan. They are Mongol by origin but they speak a dialect of Persian now. So changing language is not an strange thing and do not need any special program. People change their language due to their need to communicate with other people around them, to learn something which is in another language, to work with foreigners and many  other reason. I see the switching from one language to another in this process. 1. borrowing heavily form another language in your conversations 2. slowly becoming a bilingual. 3. living in an area who have to speak and communicate with another language 4. deciding to change your language to become a member of the majority and have less differences with them so they accept you better and you can communicate better ( this occur specially when your children and next generation prefer the other language.) 5. Now, you has completely changed your language and your next generation became ...ized. Very simple.Approve   


Edited by Suren - 23-Feb-2008 at 17:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 18:14
Originally posted by alish alish wrote:

 
 Still Tajiks  speak  tajik and uzbeks  speak  uzbek... Uzbeks were named with such name as "sarts" not because they could speak several languages.... but mostly due to the fact that they fought against tsar army, for the honor and identity... for their lands and cities... what they owned for centuries............. I understand it is so hard for you to understand this fact. and only for that reason, russians did all they could in order to achieve, well, I can say what they achieved, in terms of national history of uzbeks.... You see everything with the eyes of russians, the way they preffered to be...... dude, don't loose the sense of reality... How it can happen all of a sudden, different nations gather and start talking in uzbek. Yes there might be a few tajiks whose generations accepted themselves as uzbeks, but i hardly believe that it has to cause to be said "most of the uzbeks are turkified tajiks, mongols or any others". There could be so a very few of them But damn not most of them.... Russians are the same......
 Try to analyze things based on real facts which can confirm your decision not  based  on just  analytical  assessments  which are not confirmed with originals....
thank you
 
They are Sarts because they fought against Tsar army?  What an interesting conclusion, and how Sart relates to the fighting against Tsar army at all?  I'm afraid you are a little lost.
 
Sart basically means a city dweller as opposed to the nomad. That's what it means and tsar army for better and for worse doesn't have any relation to this.
 
Instead of throwing into discussions words like "dams etc." You better read a several books on Central Asian history. Or may be just read this link if you don't have enough time.
 
 
The process of linguisitic assimilation is natural and can be observed in different places at different historical periods. There is nothing unusual, weird etc. in the fact that Tajiks or original Iranian speaking Central Asian city dwellers were Turkicizationed. It doesn't have any relation to Russians and Russian nationalism.
 
However, I see a strange reaction to this fact from some members. What does it change for Uzbeks if they know that their ancestors were Iranian speakers? It changes nothing, since they still consider themselves Uzbeks and Turks, more over it makes their historical heritage more diverse and rich.
 
Thank you.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 23-Feb-2008 at 18:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 18:17
Quote Suren
 There are many reason for changing language specially if you live in cities not being nomadic. Look at the hazaras in Afghanistan. They are Mongol by origin but they speak a dialect of Persian now. So changing language is not an strange thing and do not need any special program.
 
I can understand the learning of different languages for isolated communities but what is being suggested is not just the adoption of another language but also the elimination and adoption of another identity.
 
In addition to this, the Turkification arguments are further weakened by the fact Persian or Arabic was never forbidden, it was taught in schools there were even some Turkic states who used Persian as the official language. How is it possible in such an environment with no force to either speak Turkic or become a Turk that people can become Turkified.
 
Furthermore, if Persian speakers became Turkified, why didn't Turks become Persianified?
 
There are totally isolated Turkic communities in Iran, like the Qashqai, 1-2 million Oghuz Turks, how after centuries are they still speaking Turkish, how have they retained their identity and culture.

 
Quote Alish
How it can happen all of a sudden, different nations gather and start talking in uzbek. Yes there might be a few tajiks whose generations accepted themselves as uzbeks, but i hardly believe that it has to cause to be said "most of the uzbeks are turkified tajiks, mongols or any others". There could be so a very few of them But damn not most of them....
 
It puzzled me as well.
 
These accusations arn't just reserved to O'zbeks, the accusations of Turkified communities is ridiculous.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 18:32
You guys all speak from the point of Turkic nationalism. Now let's listen to what Tajiks have to say:
 
 
The Pan-Turkists occupied all the key positions in the Party and in the Soviet organs of power. Sharing the same religion and speaking the same language allowed them to integrate themselves into the Turkish-speaking population. In almost all the newly-established schools of the Republic of Bukhara, including in areas where the principle inhabitants were Tajik, classes were taught by Turkish teachers. Turkish became the medium of instruction; Tajik children were forced to study in a language they did not know. They were not allowed to use Tajiki even outside the classroom, during their free time. Additionally, they were forced to register themselves as Uzbeks. Families that refused to register themselves as prescribed were forced out of their birthplace. In Bukhara, Samarqand, Khujand, and other cities, Tajik children were taught Turkish songs. In the national military, soldiers took their orders in Turkish. It is this rush to Turkicization that is translated into Uzbekization in subsequent years. Tajik students had to memorize the war anthem in Turkish:
    Turanians rise, rush to arms,
    Turks are free, Greece is finished,
    May the Turks prosper!
    May Kamal prosper!
    Abandon ignorance,
    Warrior Jamal,
    Islam is established, the enemy is dead,
    The Turkish world is illuminated.

      Refrain

    With the efforts of Kamal Pasha, the Turkish army
    Is turned into the Turkish nation.

      Refrain

    Greece is finished, the Turks are free,
    The city of Istanbul belongs to us again.
    May the Turks prosper!
    May Kamal prosper!
    Abandon ignorance,
    Warrior Jamal.

This poem illustrates the type of ideas that the Pan-Turkists promoted in the schools of the Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic of Turkistan and in the People's Soviet Republic of Bukhara.

The Tajiks' lack of concern, especially their cosmopolitanism, cost them dearly. They were deprived of the use of their language, of achieving an independent republic, and of their historical and cultural centers. The matter does not end there either. The national-administrative divisions placed the ancient Tajik cities in the People's Soviet Socialist Republic of Uzbekistan, where a policy of forced Uzbekization-under threat of exile for nonconformity-forced them to change their identity into Uzbeks. The Uzbeks used every excuse to close Tajik schools. And, the Tajiks were not appointed to leadership positions simply because of their ethnic affiliation.

 
With this anti-peoples resolution, the Pan-Turkists, knowingly, tried to prove that the Tajiks as a whole were mountain people. Furthermore, they did not wish to concede that the ancient cities of Samarqand, Bukhara, Khujand, and many river valleys in Central Asia belonged to the Tajiks. These and similar resolutions were routinely accepted by the Soviet and Party authorities; and all these decisions played fateful roles in the future life of the Tajiks. Even such regions as Hissar, Vakhsh, Kulab, and Zarafshan were not included, let alone Gorno-Badakhshan, Surkhan Dariya, 8 Qashqa Dariya 9, and the separate cities and regions of the Ferghana valley, where the majority of the population is Tajik. Even geographically speaking, this was a foolish division. It was an act of utter irresponsibility to try to create an autonomous region out of two areas that were divided by a mountain range; two areas that were not connected to each other most of the year due to climatic obstacles; and two areas which did not enjoy cultural centers so that they could create a meaningful life for their people. Neither did anyone suspect that this was an intentional move designed to drive the Tajiks into a special "reservation" where they would not have access to their historical, economic, and cultural centers.
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 23-Feb-2008 at 18:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 18:44
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The process of linguisitic assimilation is natural and can be observed in different places at different historical periods. There is nothing unusual, weird etc. in the fact that Tajiks or original Iranian speaking Central Asian city dwellers were Turkified. It doesn't have any relation to Russians and Russian nationalism.
 
Were not just talking about "linguistic assimilation" here.
 
How can a people change not only their mother-tongue but also their identity and in addition to this start claiming they belong to Turkic tribes and clans...
 
This isn't just weird its wacky.
 
Let's suggest that Russians are actually Tatars who for some reason en-mass adopted Russian as their mother-tongue, not only did they stop their, they totally forgot they were Tatars and starting claiming they were Russians, then they all started adopting Russian family names and then adopting forms of Russian culture, learning Russian legends and singing Russian songs Confused
 
These theories are heavily connected with the Stalinist era which clamed down on anything Turkic fearing Turkic uprisings. As we know hundreds of intellects were arrested, killed or forced into exile on charges of Pan-Turkism for crimes as little as writting poems.
The official state theory became, you speak Turkic languages and think your Turkic via a complete coincidence. To prevent the Turkic peoples from uniting, Stalin ordered historians to prove that they were completely unrelated to one another, that all of them had different blood, religions and traditions. In addition, the education taught, that the people are historic enemies with each other but somehow Russia is the great civillised brother doing the region a big favour.
 
The books and studies during these periods aim was to spread illogical theories such as Turks arn't really Turks they're just peoples who speak Turkic and think they're Turkic but really have no connection and their similarities are a complete coincidence.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 18:50

Have you even tried to read the article by the Tajik scholar I posted? Obviously not.

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