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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 15:46
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

What a complication....
 
So the Dungang are supposed to be Chinese Muslims (Hui) who migrated to Central Asia? Wouldn't that make their first language Han Chinese?
 
 
Han Chinese speak many dialects. Perhaps you meant Mandarin Chinese, the official language of China. But Dungan dialect has in fact some notable differences from Mandarin. One of which is that it has only 3 tones, unlike 4 in Mandarin. Also the vocabularly is quite different with many loan words from Arabic, Farsi, Turkic languages and Russian (for Central Asian Dungans).
 
And also by now Central Asian "Dungans" are complitely illiterate in Chinese characters and accustomed to the use of Cyrrilic script.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 25-Apr-2008 at 15:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 02:36
Yes. Strictly speaking, Dungan was a language derived from a northwestern dialect of Mandarin more than 100 years ago. Since they emigrated to Russia, they hardly had any contact to Hui in China. Because Chinese changed greatly in the last century, especially borrowed a large number of words from Japanese, Dungan became very different to modern Chinese. I don't think a Chinese from Gansu Province can converse with a Dungan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 02:43
In fact, Chinese is not a single language, but a group of languages. The most widely used one in this group is Mandarin, a language heavily influenced by Manchurian. Other languages include Wu (used in the Yantze Delta), Yue (used in Guangdong), Xiang (in Hunan), Gan (in Jiangxi), Min languages (in Fujian, and can be divided into many languages further), Hakka (in south Jiangxi and east Guangdong), etc. Each language has its own dialects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 03:03
Mandarin is used by about 70% of Chinese now. It can be divided in these dialects:
Northeastern: in Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning and east Inner Mongolia. Representative city: Shenyang.
Beijing: in Beijing, north Hebei, middle Inner Mongolia. Representative city: Beijing.
Northern: in Hebei, Shandong. Representative city: Jinan.
Jiao-Liao: in east Shandong and south Liaoning. Representative city: Qingdao, Dalian.
Middle: in Henan and north Anhui. Representative city: Luoyang.
Jiang-Huai: in middle Anhui, north and central Jiangsu, east Hubei. Representative city: Nanjing, Hefei.
Southwestern: in Hubei, Sichuan, Chongqing, south Shaanxi, Yunnan, Guizhou. Representative city: Wuhan, Chengdu, Chongqing.
Qin-Long: in middle Shaanxi, east Gansu. Representative city: Xi'an.
Lan-Yin: in Gansu, Ningxia, Qinghai. Representative city: Lanzhou, Yinchuan.
Jin: in Shanxi, north Shaanxi, west Inner Mongolia. It is sometimes thought a different language from Mandarin. Representative city: Taiyuan, Hohhot.
 
You can find various Mandarin dialects in Xinjiang, for Han Chinese migrants in Xinjiang are from different area. But the most used ones are Middle (most are Henan cotton farmers), Beijing (most are intellectuals from universities or institutes in Beijing) and Lan-Yin (historical migrants).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 03:13
Because Chinese changed greatly in the last century, especially borrowed a large number of words from Japanese, Dungan became very different to modern Chinese.
=======================
Sorry, I mean that Chinese borrowed many words from Japanese nearly 100 years ago, so it is quite different from Dungan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 05:23
Originally posted by Xu Hua Xu Hua wrote:

In fact, Chinese is not a single language, but a group of languages. The most widely used one in this group is Mandarin, a language heavily influenced by Manchurian.
 
Dear Xu Hua,
This is interesting. Can you specify more about the influence of Manchu language on Mandarin?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:04
There are many Manchurian words in spoken Mandarin, especially Beijing dialect. For example (number indicate the tone):
 
ting3 - very
shuai4 - handsome
ma3ma3hu1hu1 - careless
mo4ji - sluggish
zha4hu - bluster
ga1zhiwo1 - armpit
yang1gao4 - beg
la1ta - dirty
li4so - swift
ge4se - captious
kei1 - beat
luo1so - wordy
bie4niu - awkward
dao3teng - exchange
 
In pronounciation, the influence of Manchurian is very profound, too. The cacuminal consonants in Mandarin, such as ch, sh, zh, are introduced from Manchurian. The tail vowels except -n, -ng are completely lost, and a rolling-tongue decorate consonant -r is added to many words. These are very close to Manchurian pronounciation.
 
In gramma, Mandarin is still different from Manchurian. But the structure of many sentences in Mandarin can be converted into SOV from SVO with adding a word "ba3". SOV is the feature of Altaic languages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:22
^ interesting post! their is a lot of 'sh' or soft ' s's ' in Beijing pronunciation (much like the northern mandarin in general IIRC), is that a Manchu influence?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:38
Originally posted by Xu Hua Xu Hua wrote:

 the structure of many sentences in Mandarin can be converted into SOV from SVO with adding a word "ba3". SOV is the feature of Altaic languages.
 
Is it really a Manchu influence? I thought Wenyan had a similar grammar pattern but just the word which is used in Wenyan is jiang, not ba.
 
So, does it mean that similar grammatical structure is absent in the Southen Chinese dialects?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:41
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

^ interesting post! their is a lot of 'sh' or soft ' s's ' in Beijing pronunciation (much like the northern mandarin in general IIRC), is that a Manchu influence?
 
'sh', 'ch', 'zh' are influences of Manchurian. These pronounciations are so unique that are only found in few languages such as Manchurian, Mongolian and Mandarin in East Asia.
Maybe 'zh' is from Mongolian. The word 'zhan' in Mandarin is from Mongolian, means 'station'. It is said that in Turkish it is pronounced as 'jam', is this right?
 
The words with these pronounciations become less and less with the increasing distance from Beijing, northeast China and Inner Mongolia. In south China, none languages or dialects contain these pronouciations.
 
Soften 'sh', 'ch', 'zh' are written as 'x', 'q', 'j'. They are not from Manchurian. They are all original Chinese pronounciations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:59
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

Originally posted by Xu Hua Xu Hua wrote:

 the structure of many sentences in Mandarin can be converted into SOV from SVO with adding a word "ba3". SOV is the feature of Altaic languages.
 
Is it really a Manchu influence? I thought Wenyan had a similar grammar pattern but just the word which is used in Wenyan is jiang, not ba.
 
So, does it mean that similar grammatical structure is absent in the Southen Chinese dialects?
 
Yes, 'jiang' and 'ba' are both used in Mandarin now. The latter one is more widely used. In Wenyan does SOV exist? I'm not sure. Maybe I'm wrong. Wenyan is still used in former situation in Qing Dynasty.
 
To my knowledge, in southern languages or dialects SOV is rarely used or absent. I think the PLA troop in the Civil War (1946-1949) is one reason why SOV penetrate into southern languages or dialects. Most of PLA soldiers are northerners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 08:07

"Mandarin" I've mentioned is indicated to "Guan Hua" (means official language) formally, but not "Pu Tong Hua". "Guan Hua" or "Mandarin" I've mentioned contains many dialects. "Pu Tong Hua" is Beijing dialect of "Guan Hua". Officially, "Pu Tong Hua" is called "Mandarin". So "Mandarin" I've mentioned is not "Mandarin" with offical meaning.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 08:21
 
These are languages in Chinese language group. I prefer to use "language" but not "dialect", despite they share the same script.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 08:30
Originally posted by Xu Hua Xu Hua wrote:

In Wenyan does SOV exist?
 
I think so. When O has a lot of adjectives or it needs to be emphasized.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 09:07
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

What a complication....
 
So the Dungang are supposed to be Chinese Muslims (Hui) who migrated to Central Asia? Wouldn't that make their first language Han Chinese?
 
In ethnically mixed regions like Sinkiang, do the Hui identify themselves more with the Uighurs for their common religious practice, or more with the Chinese with their language and customs?
 
Having descended from diverse origins from the Middle East, Central Asia, and SE Asia, what are the origins, for example, of the Hui community in Xian and in Ningxia?
Do they have distant Turkic origins?
 
 
 
 
Hui is quite different from Uighurs, for Hui is a highly mixed-blood nation with too much Chinese bloodline in it. The appearance of Hui and Han Chinese is too close to discern. Differently, Uighur is a mere Turkic nation. In Xinjiang, most of Hui are descendants of migrants from Gansu, Ningxia and Shaanxi laterly, when they had already become mixed-blood. Because the custome of Hui is heavily influenced by Han Chinese, there is a limited psychological identification between Hui and Uighurs to each other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 09:14
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