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Forum LockedUyghur-Chinese relations

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Uyghur-Chinese relations
    Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 17:59
Pebbles
The fact remains,modern day Turkish population is a " hodge podge ".


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 19:46
When ths subject is the ethinicity of Turkey everybody becomes  master of the subject. Some of the members take the revenge of their ancestors by these kind of humiliating posts and consider turks as the only mixed nation.
 
Pebbles, you must keep your respect and your posts must be without racist words
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 20:08
Evrenosgazi, I didn't see any racist words in pebbles' remarks. He was saying that the population of Turkey is heavily mixed, but why do you consider this racist?
 
Also, I believe you remark regarding "the revenge of their ancestors" is complitely misplaced in this thread.
 
Thank you
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 20:44
Sarmat everybody knows that turks are not a pure nation. But this is also true for all other nations. A word like "hodge podge" is also an  unsuitable type of comparison. Everybody in this forum must notice that we all have a nation pride and these kind of words hurts this pride.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 20:58
Sarmat
Evrenosgazi, I didn't see any racist words in pebbles' remarks. He was saying that the population of Turkey is heavily mixed, but why do you consider this racist?


He called Turks "mutts", "hodge-podge", makes out like they're not "really" Turks because other peoples have lived in the land that is today Turkey.

I think it is pretty racist and derogatory, if we started calling Chinese names I don't think he'd be very happy.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 21:47
Originally posted by Bulldog



He called Turks "mutts",
I think it is pretty racist and derogatory, if we started calling Chinese names I don't think he'd be very happy.

 
Sorry, I reviewed pebbles posts again and saw this "term". I apologize for that missing that part before.
 
pebbles, you should be more careful next time while posting something like this. I understand now the reaction our Turkic members.
 
Please consider this post an unofficial warning to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 21:50
Thanks Sarmat , I am sure about objectivity 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote feiying Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2009 at 10:49
One of my coworker was an Uygur from China.  He can easily pass for Turkish or Persian.  But, funny thing was during lunch, he sometimes shared with me his meals.  Some of his noodle and dumpling dishes look similar to what Chinese eat (exception being most of his meat consist of lamb).  There is another Uygur from China (Wu Arkaishi) who led the 1989 Beijing student demonstration, if you look at his face, he can easily pass for Chinese.  Uygurs are very mixed people in terms of facial feature.  In terms of genetics, Uygur and Uzbek are some of the most mixed and heterogenous in terms of Y chromosome (paternal genetics).  About 10%-15% of Uygur paternal genetics have the O3/O3a5 markers. This the same marker that is shared by 60-80% of both northern and southern Chinese.  It is not surprising given how many different peoples pass through and settled along the silk road in the past.
 
As far as Japanese, 50% of their paternal genetics (Haplogroup D) share in common with Ainus and Tibetans.  The other 30% is O2b marker (Korean) and 20% O3a5 (Chinese).  As you can see, Japanese also have very mixed paternal origins.  Their maternal origins (mtDNA) however, is very close to Koreans.
 
Koreans themselves are 50% O2b and 50% O3/O3a5 paternal genetics.  They too have a lot of Chinese influences.  From genetics point of view, Koreans and Japanese appear more closer to East Asians (ie Chinese) than to Central/North Asians (ie Mongol-Turkic people).  That is only paternal lines.  But, the odd thing is Korean mtDNA (maternal lines) appear closer to Siberians than to Chinese.  It means there was "demic diffusion" into Korea/Japan in the past.  Men from East Asia sailed/migrated into Korea and Japan bring rice agriculture civilization but largely intermarried with the native Altaic/Siberian women.  This might explain the complexities of Korean/Japanese language affiliation too.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 04:33
Originally posted by Sarmat

 
You're lying. Never a person whose first language is Chinese would call Chinese characters "kanji."
 
Even if you're an Asian-American, you first language is English. It's true that most of the young Asian Americans can't speak the languages of their ancestors.
 
And don't brag about how many years you lived there. I met people who have been living there for 20 years and speak not a word of a language.
 
Finally, Asian-Americans look different from real Asians from China and Japan. They look "American." It's also actually very easy to see whether a person is a Chinese or Japanese-American or China-Chinese or Japan-Japanese.
 
So, indeed, if you want to distinguish between Asian-Americans in the US and Canada; it would be some times very hard to say.
 
But if you see a person raised in Japan and compare it to a person raised in China the differnce is more then obvious. The environment has a great influence on the outlook and behavoir of the person.
 
Please, kanji is the English word for Chinese characters in many dictionaries. I use whatever pleases me. You just base your judgment on generalizations, stereotypes, and god knows what else. My first language is BOTH Chinese and English, and if you are picky, its actually Chinese first, because I grew up with my Chinese grandparents. So save your groundless speculations.
 
I don't brag about how many years I lived there. There is nothing to brag about. Facts speak for themselves. Its you who commented on me been foreign first, so I responded in kind and told you I'm far more qualified than you to make a judgement.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 04:43
Originally posted by Sarmat

 
I don't agree.
 
Japanese and Chinese languages are mutually not intelligible. Yes, Chinese and Japanese can guess the probable meaning of the written passages in another language, but here the connection ends. And although, most of the Japanese words have Chinese origin they are pronounced very different from a contemporary Chinese. It will take many years for a Chinese to become fluent in Japanese language.
 
By contrast, Turkish and Uyghyr language do share some degree of mutual intelligibilty and it will take a short time of the speakers of both languages to become complitely fluent in anothr.
 
The genetic connection of Japanese and Chinese is minimum. By contrast Uyghyrs and Turks come from the same ancestors.
 
Historical connection as I said, Turks and Uyghyrs view their past in the terms of their common Turkic origins, byt contrast despite of the adobtion of the most civilizational values by Japan from China, historical memories of both countries about themselves are rather bitter than positive.
 
Thats not go over this again. Uighur and Turk is unintelligible too, in fact cantonese and mandarin is unintelligible, so what is your point? I've already said this, its the script which united China, not the language. You are bringing up facts which you think are important, ignoring others which others think are important. I did not say Japanese and Chinese are closer than Uighurs and Turks are in everything, I stated since the beginning that there are closer similarities between the two comparisons in different places.
 
Also, identity perception is completely irrelevant to our discussion here. Why can't you answer me the simple fact that Taiwan and China also share a commom history and even as recent as the early 20th century, the Taiwanese are still completely Chinese natinalists, but today, there are more separatists than pro-unificationists. Does that mean Taiwanese and Chinese are more different from each other than Some Chinese nationalist Uighurs are to the Han? Nationalism is just a feeling, nothing more, it is not objective.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 04:49
Originally posted by Sarmat

Japanese have even less in common with Chinese in terms of genetics.
 
Prove it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 05:23
Originally posted by dick

 
Thats not go over this again. Uighur and Turk is unintelligible too, in fact cantonese and mandarin is unintelligible, so what is your point? I've already said this, its the script which united China, not the language.
 
Uighur and Turkish are mutually inteligible to a certain degree. While spoken Chinese and Japanese are complitely uninteligible. And Cantonese and Mandarin are 100% more closer to each other than Mandarin and Japanese if you didn't know that. Moreover culturally Cantonese and Mandarin speakers are the same people unlike Chinese and Japanese.
 
Originally posted by dick

 You are bringing up facts which you think are important, ignoring others which others think are important.
 
The factors which you think about are unimportant.
 
 
Originally posted by dick

I did not say Japanese and Chinese are closer than Uighurs and Turks are in everything, I stated since the beginning that there are closer similarities between the two comparisons in different places.
 
 
You stated exactly that Japanese and Chinese are closer to each other than Uighurs and Turks.
 
 
Originally posted by dick

Also, identity perception is completely irrelevant to our discussion here. Why can't you answer me the simple fact that Taiwan and China also share a commom history and even as recent as the early 20th century, the Taiwanese are still completely Chinese natinalists, but today, there are more separatists than pro-unificationists. Does that mean Taiwanese and Chinese are more different from each other than Some Chinese nationalist Uighurs are to the Han? Nationalism is just a feeling, nothing more, it is not objective.
 
Seems that you need to upgrade your knowledge about the things Chinese. The overwhelming majority of Taiwanese  never deny that they are Chinese. Even the excentric presiden Chen Shuibian said that both the Mainlanders and Taiwanese are descendants of the Yellow emperor. Those nationalists just don't want to be a part of political entity called PRC. Moreover, there different terms that are used to for a notion "Chinese" in the Chinese universe. What Taiwanese use is Huaren, which means Chinese in a cultural sense, why they don't want to be called Zhongguo ren (Chinese in a more political sense, Zhongguo literally means the Middle Kingdom i.e. Chinese state) since it could imply a connection to the Mainland China i.e. the PRC.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 07:39
Originally posted by Sarmat

Originally posted by dick

 
Uighur and Turkish are mutually inteligible to a certain degree. While spoken Chinese and Japanese are complitely uninteligible. And Cantonese and Mandarin are 100% more closer to each other than Mandarin and Japanese if you didn't know that. Moreover culturally Cantonese and Mandarin speakers are the same people unlike Chinese and Japanese..
 
First of all there are many similarities between Chinese and Japanese words so they are not completely uninterpretable. The fact remains that they are unintelligible regardless of the degree of similarity.
 
And I can argue the same for writing, Chinese and Japanese share many similar characters and are mutually comprehensible to a certain degree, while the Uighur script and the Turkish script ARE completely uninterpretable.
 
 
 
[QUOTE=dick] The factors which you think about are unimportant.
 
 
Thats according to you my friend. You only think that because your views were preconceived by Western history. I can also tell you your views are unimportant. If I did that, it remains my subjective opinion with no facts to back it up, just like your comment.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 07:43
 
Originally posted by dick

You stated exactly that Japanese and Chinese are closer to each other than Uighurs and Turks. .
 
No I didn't, point out the quote. Whatever I said about Japanese and Chinese are closer to each other, it was specifically relating to one category, not a generalization like you are trying to state.
 
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by dick

Seems that you need to upgrade your knowledge about the things Chinese. The overwhelming majority of Taiwanese  never deny that they are Chinese. Even the excentric presiden Chen Shuibian said that both the Mainlanders and Taiwanese are descendants of the Yellow emperor. Those nationalists just don't want to be a part of political entity called PRC. Moreover, there different terms that are used to for a notion "Chinese" in the Chinese universe. What Taiwanese use is Huaren, which means Chinese in a cultural sense, why they don't want to be called Zhongguo ren (Chinese in a more political sense, Zhongguo literally means the Middle Kingdom i.e. Chinese state) since it could imply a connection to the Mainland China i.e. the PRC.

 
Please don't tell me what to do. Your Chinese history is far below my level. The disparity is prodigious. No. Chen Shui Bian wanted independence from China period. Han ren is just an ethnic group, not a nation. The Americans are also Anglo Saxon, not British. Most Taiwanese today clearly don't think they are chinese, which is zhongguoren.
 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote man2rk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 09:10
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by calvo

Despite recent protests in Tibet stir up international sensation, the largest ethnic minority in China is actually the Uyghurs (how do you pronounce it?), a Turkic-Muslim people.
the largest minoirty is the tai Zhuang group not the uighers.
 
 
The most of the Zhuang living in China are sinicized, they couildn't speak their own language and their names are just Chinese.
History is something that victors write on the back of losers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 09:18
Originally posted by dick

 
 
Originally posted by dick

Seems that you need to upgrade your knowledge about the things Chinese. The overwhelming majority of Taiwanese  never deny that they are Chinese. Even the excentric presiden Chen Shuibian said that both the Mainlanders and Taiwanese are descendants of the Yellow emperor. Those nationalists just don't want to be a part of political entity called PRC. Moreover, there different terms that are used to for a notion "Chinese" in the Chinese universe. What Taiwanese use is Huaren, which means Chinese in a cultural sense, why they don't want to be called Zhongguo ren (Chinese in a more political sense, Zhongguo literally means the Middle Kingdom i.e. Chinese state) since it could imply a connection to the Mainland China i.e. the PRC.

 
Please don't tell me what to do. Your Chinese history is far below my level. The disparity is prodigious. No. Chen Shui Bian wanted independence from China period. Han ren is just an ethnic group, not a nation. The Americans are also Anglo Saxon, not British. Most Taiwanese today clearly don't think they are chinese, which is zhongguoren.
 

 

Dick try and enlighten us with your superior knowledge. this is what the forum is for, don't hold back we can keep up with anything new you share with us.

 Taiwanese think they are 'Chinese' ive never met one that would say otherwise, that goes for others from ASEAN or born in the west. They are not a part of the PRC which doesnt preclude them from their linguistic, cultural and ethnic roots. However there will always be confusion with westerners on Han ren, Hua ren or Zongguo ren, especially if people like you try to use one exclusivley to translate 'chinese'. All are correct in their own way.  In english this difference is normally infered within context of what being said, instead of those  more specific labels.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote man2rk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 09:18
Originally posted by feiying

One of my coworker was an Uygur from China.  He can easily pass for Turkish or Persian.  But, funny thing was during lunch, he sometimes shared with me his meals.  Some of his noodle and dumpling dishes look similar to what Chinese eat (exception being most of his meat consist of lamb).  There is another Uygur from China (Wu Arkaishi) who led the 1989 Beijing student demonstration, if you look at his face, he can easily pass for Chinese.  Uygurs are very mixed people in terms of facial feature.  In terms of genetics, Uygur and Uzbek are some of the most mixed and heterogenous in terms of Y chromosome (paternal genetics).  About 10%-15% of Uygur paternal genetics have the O3/O3a5 markers. This the same marker that is shared by 60-80% of both northern and southern Chinese.  It is not surprising given how many different peoples pass through and settled along the silk road in the past.
 
As far as Japanese, 50% of their paternal genetics (Haplogroup D) share in common with Ainus and Tibetans.  The other 30% is O2b marker (Korean) and 20% O3a5 (Chinese).  As you can see, Japanese also have very mixed paternal origins.  Their maternal origins (mtDNA) however, is very close to Koreans.
 
Koreans themselves are 50% O2b and 50% O3/O3a5 paternal genetics.  They too have a lot of Chinese influences.  From genetics point of view, Koreans and Japanese appear more closer to East Asians (ie Chinese) than to Central/North Asians (ie Mongol-Turkic people).  That is only paternal lines.  But, the odd thing is Korean mtDNA (maternal lines) appear closer to Siberians than to Chinese.  It means there was "demic diffusion" into Korea/Japan in the past.  Men from East Asia sailed/migrated into Korea and Japan bring rice agriculture civilization but largely intermarried with the native Altaic/Siberian women.  This might explain the complexities of Korean/Japanese language affiliation too.
You should not be that certain about the racial matters about Uighurs. You han chinese are also a racial hot pot like brazilian, if you look at han chinese people living in Guansu province you easily can find some people with blue or green eyes and they are proud to be han and also some southern chinese han people can easily be passed for Thai or vetnamese something. You don't understand the whole people you are judging about , so please learn first then talk.
History is something that victors write on the back of losers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 09:38
Originally posted by man2rk

Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by calvo

Despite recent protests in Tibet stir up international sensation, the largest ethnic minority in China is actually the Uyghurs (how do you pronounce it?), a Turkic-Muslim people.
the largest minoirty is the tai Zhuang group not the uighers.
 
 
The most of the Zhuang living in China are sinicized, they couildn't speak their own language and their names are just Chinese.
20 million speakers, the language shift from one to the other is not complete yet - just in the urban areas. You may not see it in the rural parts. Any language lost is nothing to be happy about.

http://www.linguapax.org/congres04/pdf/prosser.pdf
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 18:55
Originally posted by dick

Please don't tell me what to do. Your Chinese history is far below my level. The disparity is prodigious. No. Chen Shui Bian wanted independence from China period. Han ren is just an ethnic group, not a nation. The Americans are also Anglo Saxon, not British. Most Taiwanese today clearly don't think they are chinese, which is zhongguoren.
 
 
LOL
So far you didn't demonstrate any knowledge at all, and you continue to impress us with more examples of wild illiteracy.
 
First of all, the whole discussion is about ethnicities not about nations. It wouldn't make sense to argue about nationhood at all. Cause  Uighurs, Mongols, Tibetians etc. belong to China by "nationhood." And all of those people can be called "zhongguo ren" with an additional remark "ethnic minorities" (shaoshu minzu).
 
Anglo-Saxons are old Germanic tribes which contributed to the formation of English ethnicity.
 
Neither can you say that Americans are "Anglo-Saxons" in ethnic sense. How about African-Americans, Native Americans, Asian Americans etc.?   Seems that it's beyond your comprehension.
 
You translate Zhongguo ren as Chinese. Good, then how would you translate Huaren?
What is it? It's not "Chinese" in your opinion? Then what it is?
 
Since your Chinese vocabularly seems to be on a very basic level,please check a list of Chinese language equivalents for an English term "Chinese."
 
Good luck !
 
 
And finally, what Chen Shuibian thinks about the ancestry of Taiwanese and Mainland Chinese. A quote from the English translation of his first inaugural speech.
 
 
"The people across the Taiwan Strait share the same ancestral, cultural, and historical background. "


Edited by Sarmat - 15-Mar-2009 at 19:03
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bright Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2009 at 19:04
TOP10 IN POPULATION
name     population(ten thousand)
Zhuang(壯族) 1548.96
Manchurian(滿人) 982.12 
Hui(回族) 860.29  
Miao(苗族) 739.80
Uighur(维吾尔族) 721.44
Yi(彝族) 657.22
Tujia(土家族) 570.42
Mongol(蒙古族)480.68 
Tibetan(藏族) 459.33  
致天下以太平,求己身以不朽
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