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Forum LockedUnification of Germany

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    Posted: 10-Dec-2008 at 00:14
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by beorna

The French conquest is seen different in Germany. On one side the Napoleonic wars were a Liberation war of Germans against the French invaders.


that's were historical myth starts. for a start, Napoleon never conquered Germany. because there was no Germany and because all the German princes allied with Napoleon on their free will. Napoleon gave huge privileges to the German princes and they readily fought for him like Frenchmen in his wars until his star was falling from the sky. of course this put the German princes in a abd position, because they were wholeheartedly supporting Napoleon for he gave them many new lands and power, therefore they invented the myth of nationalism, so they could become friends with Prussia and Austria again.


Ã’f course Napoleon didn't conquer Germany but he conquered states of the HRE of German nation that lasts till 1806. It is not true that all princes allied with Napoleon. After the 3rd Koalition war France was able to act like it wanted to inside the Reich. It is correct that 16 South German states finished with the HRE and build the Rheinbund as French allies. But others especially Prussia and some allies did not untill Jena and Auerstedt broke the last resistance. The duchy of Brunswick, e.g., allthough not in war with France, was destroyed, because his sovereign was Field Marshall in the Prussian Army. The whole North Germany was annected by France or given to his brother Jerome who became King of Westphalia with his residence in Kassel. Prussia was driven back across the Elbe river, just saved by the Russian Zar.
Of course Germans took profit of the conquest, not only peers, dukes or Kings even common citizens. But the fact that e.g. westphalia send soldiers to the Napoleonic campaigns does not mean that this was done voluntarily.

Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by beorna

It created a kind of national feeling that did not exist before. But nevertheless  there was a great movement for a united Germany within the common people.


nonsense, as is aid before, common people only cared for liberal movements, they couldn't care less if their Monarch is the King of Württemberg or the Emperor of Germany, that doesn't change anything for them at all. therefore they descided to migrate tro Russia or America or accept the situation if they couldn't make it.

It is not. Schiller, Hölderlin, Fichte, Schleiermacher, Arndt, Görres, von Kleist, Jahn, Körner, Schenkendorf brought up different ideas of a German nation that became famous in wider circles of the common people. Of course the most of it were for liberal ideas, but if you look to Prussia it was a fight for freedom.

Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by beorna

On the other hand after the end of the 1st Empire the dualism between Prussia and Austria brought the unification ahead too. It was the quarrel for supremacy that led to the expulsion of at least Austria from the German Bund and to a unified Reich and nation (but without Austria and Luxembourg).


it was only Prussia who pursued an agressive hegemonial policy, Austria did nothing, they had other issues to take care of which was far from Germany.
Well that's true. But if you look to the war of 1864 it shows that there were to supreme states in Germany. It was Prussias fortune that Austria had a lot of trouble in Hungary and with his Slavic regions and that Schwarzenberg was against a Great German Solution. So Austria was driven out.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2008 at 00:31
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by beorna

That's just the view of a man from the South-West.TongueWink


so? are you really sure about that? irregardless of what i already mentioned above, remember the national assembly at Frankfurt and how they offered the Imperial crown to Frederick Wilhelm IV on a silver plate and he declined! is that the act of a Monarch who genuinely cares to unify a people? Bismarcks policy of belligerent expansion led the German people to a virtual civil war in 1866, how can you seriously believe he was interested in German unity and the fate of the German people? he even went as far as to drag all of Germany into a war with France which ultimately turned them our arch-enemies until 60 years ago! that son of a bitch even sent Prussian soldiers to quell the liberal movements of Baden and the Palatinate, he was one of the major reasons so many Germans left Germany in the first place to seek their fortune in America! if you know the American Civil War you'll know about the large number of German immigrants who took uniforms and rifles and descided to voluntarily fight for the liberty of the American people. they wouldn't have migrated if they were happy in Germany. do you honestly believe a person like Bismarck, who was responsible for the suffering and emmigration of so many Germans is a unifier? come on. should i be any thankful to the Prussian Army that forcefully destroyed any liberty movement in Germany, that fought the Army of my own country and "allowed" me to live in a bigger, more conservative country than before?

and btw, the German princes wanted to elect the King of Bavaria as German emperor instead of the Prussian King? of course they didn't wanted a strong emperor that would dominate them but a weakling with lose reins. Bismarck new of that and bribed the King of Bavaria so he could finance his dumb fairy tale castles and the German princes would instead elect the King of Prussia. Dead
Come on, keep cool. But you show exactly what I wrote. There is a different view on that facts. We did not support Napoleon. We joined the Prussian Liberation Fight. But in my duchy as well, the return of the old dynasty did not bring the liberal ideas the people hoped to. But even if we had a revolution in 1831 when the duke was driven out his palace burned down, his brother followed as new duke. And even in 1848 it was not a fight against the duke but just for more freedom. So  Napoleon brought liberal ideas, Prussia the freedom. In your region, the South it is quite different. Prussia is a red towel for a lot of you. I don't say Prussia unifyed Germany because they had heroic and only the best motives. Of course they wanted the power. Yes, sure this policy brought us at the end the WWI and perhaps then WWII. But what had happened if Prussia hadn't unifyed Germany? Would the world be better? I think nobody can say this.
The question of these thread was what the force was that was responsible for the unification. This was the Prussia hegemonial desire and the new patriotism or nationalism of wide groups of the people.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2008 at 01:14
Originally posted by beorna

But in my duchy as well, the return of the old dynasty did not bring the liberal ideas the people hoped to. But even if we had a revolution in 1831 when the duke was driven out his palace burned down, his brother followed as new duke

What was your duchy?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2008 at 19:02
Originally posted by beorna

It is not. Schiller, Hölderlin, Fichte, Schleiermacher, Arndt, Görres, von Kleist, Jahn, Körner, Schenkendorf brought up different ideas of a German nation that became famous in wider circles of the common people. Of course the most of it were for liberal ideas, but if you look to Prussia it was a fight for freedom.


at least half of those you mentioned were nothing but ultra-nationalists and terrorists (Körner) and don't get me started on Schiller. remember where he comes from. he abandoned his position as Regimental doctor in a Württemberg regiment, i think that tells a lot about him as humanitarian and patriot as well....not necessary to stress again that none of those you mentioned were common people at all.

do you know how Körner died btw? he was mortally wounded by soldiers from no country other than Württemberg! Big%20smile i think, that one of the "heroes" of post-Napoleonic Nationalist romantization was killed by another German, speaks volumes. but don't think Prussians are hated here. the worst of all, one of our local schools is even named after that sob!


Come on, keep cool. But you show exactly what I wrote. There is a different view on that facts. We did not support Napoleon. We joined the Prussian Liberation Fight. But in my duchy as well, the return of the old dynasty did not bring the liberal ideas the people hoped to. But even if we had a revolution in 1831 when the duke was driven out his palace burned down, his brother followed as new duke. And even in 1848 it was not a fight against the duke but just for more freedom. So  Napoleon brought liberal ideas, Prussia the freedom. In your region, the South it is quite different. Prussia is a red towel for a lot of you. I don't say Prussia unifyed Germany because they had heroic and only the best motives. Of course they wanted the power. Yes, sure this policy brought us at the end the WWI and perhaps then WWII. But what had happened if Prussia hadn't unifyed Germany? Would the world be better? I think nobody can say this.
The question of these thread was what the force was that was responsible for the unification. This was the Prussia hegemonial desire and the new patriotism or nationalism of wide groups of the people.


primary reason for Hannover to fight against Napoleon was because the Kurfürst of Hannover was at the same time the King of Great Britain. of course there was also Brunswick and Hessen-Kassel, but those are rather the exception. and Prussia isn't really a typical German principality anyways. compare the borders of Ottos the Great realm with the borders of the Rheinbund, that tells a lot about who is German. if we detail the support for Napoleon, then of course we can say that the North was in general anti-Napoleonic and the South was more in favour of Napoleon, but Napoleon also made a lot of bad decisions in Northern Germany. for example he annexed Holland and the German coastline up to Hamburg to enforce the continental blcokade, a move which was of course unpopular. but if you look at the German territories of the western rhine which were also annexed during the Revolution, those soldiers were part of French regiments and fought exactly the same as French soldiers. he also installed his popular, though incompetent brother on the throne of Westphalia.
anyways, if you're from Hannover as i assume, your countries army also fought Prussians in 1866. unless you're from Oldenburg, that would make you a Prussian ally.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 09:03
No, I am from the former duchy of Brunswick.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 15:07
Originally posted by Temujin


primary reason for Hannover to fight against Napoleon was because the Kurfürst of Hannover was at the same time the King of Great Britain. of course there was also Brunswick and Hessen-Kassel, but those are rather the exception.
I don't want to get into any internecine battle here but weren't Brunswick and Hesse-Kassel likely to go with Hanover anyway? How separate were Brunswick and Hanover at this time?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 19:30
the Duke of Brunswick as noted already was a Prussian Field-marshal, so he would go with Prussia. the Kurfürst of Hessen-Kassel was already member of the Rheinbund but in his stupidity he mobilized his troops too early against the war with Prussia in 1806 and Napoleon angrily stripped him of his realm. subsequently, Kassel became the capital of the new Kingdom of Westphalia and it's soldiers were the core of the new Westphalian Army.

as an add-on to brusnwick. after the duke got stripped of his Duchy, (and Prussias defeat) his first choice was to cast his lot with Austria, and only after their defeat in 1809 with Britain. so the ties between Brunswick and Hannover/Britian were seemingly not very strong.


Edited by Temujin - 11-Dec-2008 at 19:37
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Post Options Post Options   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2008 at 23:44
The Kfsm. Hannover is the former duchy Brunswick-Lüneburg, while the duchy Brunswick is Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel or since 1735 Braunschweig-Bevern. They all belong to one house, the Welfs. There were a lot of lineages, B-Calenberg, B-Göttingen, B-Grubenhagen, B-Wolffenbüttel, B-Bevern, B-Lüneburg. The sovereigns of theses states worked mostly close together, but as in every family, sometimes not. In the most wars of the 16th to 18th century they cooperated. At least in the war of 1756-63 they were allies of Prussia and the UK. Since 1701, Act of settlement, the Hannover-lineage was waiting for the British throne, which they got in 1714. As a fact of the British-Hannoverian personal union Hannover was defeated in the 3rd coalition war and was given to Prussia in the treaty of Schönbrunn. In 1806 Napoleon offered Hannover to the UK, which let Prussia start the 4th coalition war in which all Welfish territories became part of the Kingdom of Westphalia.
 
The duke of Brunswick was severely injured during the battle of Auerstedt and died in November. His son Friedrich Wilhelm fought, after the destruction of his duchy, with the "Black Corps" against Napoleon. He did not witness the defeat of Napoleon, because he died in action, just two days before the battle of Waterloo. After his dead, the later Georg IV of Great Britain was regent of Brunswick for the kids of Friedrich Wilhelm. So you can see, the relations between Hannover and Brunswick were close throughout the times.


Edited by beorna - 13-Dec-2008 at 23:11
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 11:43
What was confusing me was that George I is usually referred to in Britain as the Duke of Brunswick when the succession was settled on him, becoming Elector of Hanover before actually succeeding in Britain.
 
So he was originally Duke of Brunswick-Lüneberg, I gather?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 17:31
before Hannover became a Kingdom after the Napoleonic Wars, the principality was refered to as Brunswick-Lüneburg as he said. only after the exaltion it was called Kingdom Hannover.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 09:24
The history of the Welfish house, its lineages and the history of the Braunschweigs are very complicated. The history of the duchy of Braunschweig starts with Otto the child in the early 13th century. He was the first duke of Braunschweig-Lüneburg. His sons Albrecht and Johann founded the two lineage of "The Old House of Braunschweig"" and The Old House of Lüneburg". In 1369 Lüneburg felt back to the House of Braunschweig. Again the duchy was devided into "The Middle Houses of Braunschweig and of Lüneburg". In 1634 the Braunschweig House extinct and the sons of Ernst the Confessor, Heinrich von Dannenberg und Wilhelm and his son Georg of Calenberg founded "The New Houses of Braunschweig" and of "Lüneburg". The youngest son of Georg of Calenberg was Ernst August, later of Calenberg, he was designated as Kurfürst in 1692/1708, so since 1692 he called his reign Kfsm. Braunschweig-Lüneburg and later, after the death of his father-in-law Georg Wilhelm of Calenberg, Kfsm. Hannover. His son was Georg, Kfsm of Hannover, of the house Braunschweig-Lüneburg, the later British King Georg I.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 14:53
Thanks for the enlightenment. Maybe I can be forgiven for muddling up the Brunswicks, especially since I grew up in a town with a major commercial block called Hanover Buildings, as well as a Brunswick Place and Terrace. Smile
 
You might be interested in another form of Brunswick stew:
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2008 at 15:09
Originally posted by gcle2003

Thanks for the enlightenment. Maybe I can be forgiven for muddling up the Brunswicks, especially since I grew up in a town with a major commercial block called Hanover Buildings, as well as a Brunswick Place and Terrace. Smile
 
You might be interested in another form of Brunswick stew:
 
Brunswick stew?  That belongs in a thread called "The Unification of Georgia!"  LOL
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2009 at 13:44
Originally posted by beorna

 

The German Bund, that fought aside with Austria against Prussia was dissolved. Austrias way away from the other German states was continued. This began still in 1849 with the decision of the "Kleindeutsche Lösung", that excluded Austria's non-German territories from the German National Council.
 
 
 
 
Is there is a lingering desire ( was there really one before Nazi regime ) to have Austria be part of Germany or consensus is complete dead among average Germans today.
 
In the past,German opposite to include Austria for its multi-ethnic European population.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2009 at 21:41
The one mistake in what's been written is the assumtion that Prussia wanted a unified germany.  The Prussian state didn't want that, neither did Bismark.  The war with Austria was more over who had the greater influence over the southern germanic states.  The Franco-Prussian war was a result of France attack Prussia.  Again due to Prussian influence on the Germanic states close to France.  The unified Germany happened almost by chance, not be design.  After Prussia became the major germanic power the other Germanic states were pulled in like a political gravity well.
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