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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 12:55
I wonder why some non-Iranian-speaking people think to know Iranian languages better than Iranians themselves, you can read here about Sasnkrit Deva: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=deva&searchmode=none
 
deva Look up deva at Dictionary.com
"god, good spirit" in Hindu religion, from Skt. deva "a god," originally "a shining one," from *div- "to shine," thus cognate with Gk. dios "divine" and Zeus, and L. deus "god" (O.Latin deivos);

and about Germanic Tiwaz: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=tiwaz&searchmode=none

Tuesday Look up Tuesday at Dictionary.com
O.E. Tiwesdæg, from Tiwes, gen. of Tiw "Tiu," from P.Gmc. *Tiwaz "god of the sky," differentiated specifically as Tiu, ancient Gmc. god of war, from PIE base *dyeu- "to shine"

Would you please tell me what Teva/Tava means in Middle Persian? As far as I know it means just "a shining one", am I wrong? The modern Persian word is Taban -> http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2b_00e2n-Default.aspx it comes from the Millde Persian verb tevan "to shine", in modern Persian we have "Tabidan" and "Taftan", both of them mean "to shine". This is a loanword from Persian: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=taffeta&searchmode=none

taffeta Look up taffeta at Dictionary.com
1373, from O.Fr. taffetas (1317), from It. taffeta, ult. from Pers. taftah "silk or linen cloth," noun use of taftah, pp. of taftan "to shine"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 14:36

Some non-Iranians do know the history of Iranian languages better than most of the Iranians because of a simple fact: they bloody know the linguistics and dealed with the subject. I don't want to be mean, but you on the other hand, didn't know even the basic phonetic terms like fricative or plosive before I introduced them in a debate about Avestan phonology, let alone the comparative method, so what's up?? Of course, I'm not one of those.

Accordingly, some non-Germanic-speaking people (even Persians, Pashtoons etc.) know the history of Germanic languages much better than most of Norwegians, Swedes, Germans, English etc. for the very same reasons.

It has been said numerous times to you, that mass comparison is not science anymore and the others have given you articles dealing with the subject. You used some silly we-are-not-talking-about-some-unrelated-languages argument, which implies, that you didn't understand the article at all.

So unless you prove by comparative method, that 'teva' is the cognate to deva and not 'div', you have nothing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 17:09
The problem is that you think there is just a single unchangeable law of sound change about Iranian languages, but it is certainly wrong, you will be right, if you say the Persian word for "two" is "do", not "to", but what is the Persian word for "to", again "do"?
 
 
to Look up to at Dictionary.com
O.E. to "in the direction of, for the purpose of, furthermore," from W.Gmc. *to (cf. O.S., O.Fris. to, Du. too, O.H.G. zuo, Ger. zu "to"), from PIE pronomial base *do- "to, toward, upward" (cf. L. donec "as long as," O.C.S. do "as far as, to," Gk. suffix -de "to, toward," O.Ir. do, Lith. da-).

http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2-Default.aspx

You should believe that in numerous cases, proto-IE "d" has been changed to "t" in the Iranian languages too, this is the reason that Teva is very holy word but Daeva which could be just a loanword from the rival Indian religion, is one of the most sinister words in the Iranian languages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2009 at 04:25
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I wonder why some non-Iranian-speaking people think to know Iranian languages better than Iranians themselves, you can read here about Sasnkrit Deva: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=deva&searchmode=none
 
deva Look up deva at Dictionary.com
"god, good spirit" in Hindu religion, from Skt. deva "a god," originally "a shining one," from *div- "to shine," thus cognate with Gk. dios "divine" and Zeus, and L. deus "god" (O.Latin deivos);

my bolding

Quote

Zeus Look up Zeus at Dictionary.com
supreme god of the ancient Greeks, 1706, from Gk., from PIE *dewos- "god" (cf. L. deus "god," O. Pers. daiva- "demon, evil god," O.C.S. deivai, Skt. deva-), from base *dyeu- "to gleam, to shine;" also the root of words for "sky" and "day" (see diurnal). The god-sense is originally "shining," but "whether as originally sun-god or as lightener" is not now clear.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2009 at 04:37
example


Quote
Much depends on the meaning of the word daiva, which clearly means 'demon' and looks similar to the word daeva in the Avesta, the holy book of Zoroastrianism . If daiva and daeva are identical, we can assume that the rebels lived in Iran, where the Zoroastrian religion was influential.

However, if these words are not the same, daiva may refer to the gods of Babylonia or Egypt.




on..

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4. King Xerxes says: when I became king, there was among these countries one that was in rebellion. Ahuramazda bore me aid. By the grace of Ahuramazda I smote that country and put it down in its place. And among these countries there was a place where previously demons (daiva) were worshipped. Afterwards, by the grace of Ahuramazda I destroyed that sanctuary of demons, and I proclaimed: 'The demons shall not be worshipped!' Where previously the demons were worshipped, there I worshipped Ahuramazda at the proper time and in the proper manner. And there was other business that had been done ill. That I made good. That which I did, all I did by the grace of Ahuramazda. Ahuramazda bore me aid until I completed the work


http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/XPh.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2009 at 11:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

You should believe that in numerous cases, proto-IE "d" has been changed to "t" in the Iranian languages too, this is the reason that Teva is very holy word but Daeva which could be just a loanword from the rival Indian religion, is one of the most sinister words in the Iranian languages.

I know that you aren't much of a friend with sources, but could you give me any claiming that Teva is related to Deus, that there was a prevocalic d -> t shift in Iranian languages and that Persian تا is an inherited word and cognate to English 'to'?? Because I found just that it's a loanword from Sanskrit यथा (yathā). This is on wiktionary though, and I don't consider it a trustworthy source.



Edited by Slayertplsko - 19-Apr-2009 at 11:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2009 at 13:39
"ta" has some different meanings in Persian, I can say for sure that one of it meanings is "two", as you read here: http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2-Default.aspx its first meaning is a "fold", the reason is that the middle Persian verb Tavistan means "to twist, to double up, to divide in two", the interesting thing is that for this reason modern Persian "tabidan" and "taftan" not only mean "to shine" but also "to twist".
 
Modern Persian Tab: http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2b-Default.aspx (being twisted, twist)
 
 
taffeta Look up taffeta at Dictionary.com
1373, from O.Fr. taffetas (1317), from It. taffeta, ult. from Pers. taftah "silk or linen cloth," noun use of taftah, pp. of taftan "to shine," also "to twist, spin." Applied to different fabrics at different times (and cf. tapestry).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=tapestry

tapestry Look up tapestry at Dictionary.com
1434, variant of tapissery (1426), from M.Fr. tapisserie "tapestry" (14c.), from tapisser "to cover with heavy fabric," from tapis "heavy fabric," from O.Fr. tapiz (12c.), from V.L. *tappetium, from Byzantine Gk. tapetion, from classical Gk., dim. of tapes (gen. tapetos) "tapestry, heavy fabric," probably from an Iranian source (cf. Pers. taftan, tabidan "to turn, twist"). The figurative use is first recorded 1581.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 22:19
Well, Cyrus, you've just managed to answer your own point: Modern Persian "ta" with the meaning "two" is not ethymologically related to English two, German Zwei, Latin duo of Greek δυο. It is merely a regressive derivate from a verb meaning "to fold", hence "to double up".

Therefore the phonetic law d > t you conjure out of thin air is not proven as applying to Iranian languages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 19:00
That is "Tavistan" which comes from "ta/tav", not vice versa, you should know about the origin of the words, you probably say the Modern Persian verb Tarkidan (to split) or Tarke (Twig) -> http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-tarke-Default.aspx don't relate to "two" but they have also the same origin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 13:17
I'm merely quoting you, Cyrus:

Quote "ta" has some different meanings in Persian, I can say for sure that one of it meanings is "two"{...} its first meaning is a "fold"


You say the first meaning of "ta" is "fold", but it also have the meaning of "two". 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 14:04
There are numeous words in Persian that we see just Latin/Greek "d" sound has been changed to "t", you can even compare English loanwords, for example Tass, from Persian Tash "dish, bowl" and Latin origin word Dish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 14:44
Excuse me, how would dish, from Greek diskos ''disk'' (via Latin), from dikein ''to throw'' be related to tasse, from Persian tasht (via Old French and Arabic)??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 16:12
good mention, don't you think that Greek dikein "throw" and Persian tekan "propel" -> http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-tek_00e2n-Default.aspx have the same origin?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 16:48
Could you please analyse the word tekan, indicating which is the root, which is the suffix and listing 2-3 other verbs in the same mood (infinitive, I presume), of the same flexionary class?

I could not locate anything remotely similar either in Old Persian or in Avestan and I am therefore very interested in how Farsi works from a grammatical perspective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 17:36
Tekan is actually an action noun which is derived from the verb tekandan (to propel, to push), of course it can be considered as an exception because in Persian action noun is usually formed from the present stem of the verb by adding the suffix -esh but tekan is just the present stem of the verb tekandan, so the proper action noun should be tekanesh that we never use in Persian!

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 22-Apr-2009 at 17:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 19:19
Thanks for clearing that up Thumbs Up

Well, in that case, the comparison is between dik- and tekan-, -ein and -dan / -esh being suffixes.
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