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Forum LockedTyr,Tiregan,Tirigan,Tervingi,Tyragetae,Targitaus

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11-Apr-2009 at 17:32
Some other similar words like Thyssagetae, Tigranes, ... can be added too, what do you know about them? Could there be any relation between them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2009 at 12:03
Cyrus, I can speak only for Indo-European languages, but in this case more often than not there is a clear distinction between Y, I and A (in medieval manuscripts people would sometimes write y in stead of i, but this does not reflect ethymological connections, merely a fashion that died off relatively quickly).

Therefore, if the root of a word has the structure CYC (C = Consonant), another the structure CIC and yet another the structure CAC, you can be quite certain there is no ethymological connection between them. It is only E and O (the short versions of the vowels) that sometimes oscillate (in Greek phero, "I carry", -phoros, "bearer", in Archaic Latin Venos, genitive Venesis [which evolves into Classical Latin into Venus, Veneris, the name of the goddess of love]). Diphthongs also tend to change form, but I think you can pretty much see my point. Just because certain words LOOK similar when transliterated into Greek alphabet, sometimes following a Greek intermediary does not immediately imply semantic or ethymological connection. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2009 at 12:40
Ok, would you please tell me there is any relation between Tyrfing, Tirfing and Tervingi or not?
It is important to know that Tervingi is the Latin form and Targitaus is the Greek form of original words, so you can't say for sure that there was "a" or "e" vowel between "T" and "R".

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 12-Apr-2009 at 12:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2009 at 15:05
Could you please tell me a bit more about the context where these names have been found? Manuscripts, inscriptions? What date do they belong to? If they are literary texts, in which author?

It's important to know all these things in order to make a reasonable guess.

For example, E can become I in Latin, but only during specific stages of the language, and this transformation becomes visible in rustic inscriptions before it does in literary texts. Y can be a variant of I in medieval manuscripts, as I've mentioned before, but not in the Classical Age.


Edited by khshayathiya - 12-Apr-2009 at 15:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2009 at 16:14
Tir/Tiregan is a very old Persian word which probably has a Sumerian or Gutian origin, it could be related to the Sumerian name of Tigris river which meant "fast as an arrow" or the name of Gutian king "Tirigan" which has been mentioned in the Sumerian inscriptios, anyway the Persian word Tir means "arrow" and is also a symbol of combat.

About Tyr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiw, as you read Tyr (Norwegian Ty, Swedish Ti, Danish Tyr, ...) is the god of single combat, victory and heroic glory in Norse mythology.

and about Tyr/Tir rune: http://www.destinytarot.com/runes/Learn_Runes/learn_rune.htm


TIR: This rune symbolizes an arrow that we shoot in an upward direction.

and Sumerian Ti: http://home.swipnet.se/~w-63448/mesopotam.htm

The people responsible for the first monumental temples and palaces, for the founding of the first city states and most likely for the invention of writing (all in the period of 3100-3000 BCE) are the Sumerians. The first written signs are pictographic, so they can be read in any language and one can't infer a particular language. A pictogram of an arrow means `arrow' in any language. A few centuries later, however, these signs were used to represent Sumerian phonetic values and Sumerian words. The pictogram for an arrow is now used to represent ti, the Sumerian word for `arrow', but also for the phonetic sound ti in words not related to `arrow'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2009 at 17:16
tigra- is an adjective in Old Persian, meaning "pointed". In this quality, it appears in the compound word "tigraxauda" [where x stands for an aspirate guttural, kh], meaning "wearing a pointed hat", used about the Scythian Skunkha. It is related to Sanskrit tigma-, meaning also "pointed" and Greek stigme (στιγμη), meaning "puncture", "perforation", and thereafter "mark" or "mark of guilt". It is easy to understand how the same word could evolve in Avestan to mean "arrow". The info above is supplied by Kent, in his "Old Persian: Grammar. Texts. Lexicon"

So, I cannot see any connection between the Iranian and the Sumerian word, other than pure coincidence. It's important to note that Indo-European words usually have three-letter radicals. In our case, the radical is tig-, to which the suffix -ma is added. This suffix evolved for phonetical reasons in Iranian to -ra.

The form of the radical, tig- also leads me to believe there is no connection between this word and the proto-Germanic *Tîwaz.

Edited by khshayathiya - 12-Apr-2009 at 17:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2009 at 17:45
You can read here: http://www.wikiled.com/Persian-English-tir-Default.aspx that other than "arrow", Tir in Persian means also "beam".

and in Sumerian: http://www.sumerian.org/sumcvc.htm

Tir: forest, grove, thicket (ti, 'arrows' + ùr, 'beams, rafters'; early example of asyndetic hendiadys).

So the Sumerian word "tir" means "forest", and about Tervingi: 'FOREST PEOPLE': THE GOTHS IN TRANSYLVANIA -> two groups of Goths identified themselves by different names, which arose from their environment. Those living in the east were called Grutungi or Greutungi — meaning 'lowlanders' — while those settled on the fringes of Transylvania and the southeastern Carpathians were known as Tervingi — 'forest people'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2009 at 20:51
I do not speak Farsi, so I cannot comment on the history of the Modern Persian word "tir", but would not be completely surprising to have a linguistic trajectory from Old Persian tigra- (adjective: "pointed") to Avestan tigra (noun: "arrow") to an intermediate "straight piece of wood" to Farsi tir (noun: "beam") [assuming, of course, that beam in this context is used to mean "any of various relatively long pieces of metal, wood, stone, etc., manufactured or shaped esp. for use as rigid members or parts of structures or machines.", and not "a ray of light"] without postulating any sort of influence from Sumerian, a language dead and buried by the time Farsi was taking shape.

As for the connection with the Tervingi, I am highly suspicious of that because the name of the people is also spelled "Thervingi".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2009 at 21:44
Originally posted by khshayathiya khshayathiya wrote:


As for the connection with the Tervingi, I am highly suspicious of that because the name of the people is also spelled "Thervingi".

Is it in Greek or Latin?? In Greek it would denote theta, which in postclassical times was a fricative. But I'm not sure when Latin th began to be pronounced in as a fricative rather than an aspirate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 01:41
Since the ending is –i, I must presume it is in Latin. Latin never did develop a fricative from the aspirated dental stop in the same way as Greek. The very aspirate “TH” is an import, used for foreign words. The educated would pronounce it accordingly, but the plebs would simply articulate it as “T”.

Now, if Latins decided to spell both Tervingi and Thervingi (and sometimes also Teuringi), that’s a fairly clear indication that what they heard from the mouth of the Germanic people was not simply the dental stop. What WAS there is something I cannot venture to say, but this is what makes me doubt the ethymological relation between the Iranian and the Germanic words in question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 05:53
I don't think to be any relation between Old Persian tigra (Modern Persian tigh) "sharp, pointed" and tir "arrow, beam", of course the Old Persian name of tigris river is also tigra but that is just the Persian form of Akkadian tiklat/diklat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 06:54
isnt the conventional rationale so far: tyr, tiw >tiwaz > deywiz > PIE - Deywos also Dyeus < Dues < Zeus, etc

Edited by Leonidas - 13-Apr-2009 at 06:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 07:12
That is the conventional rationale
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 11:34
I was a bit confused about the direction of the arrows. If you turn them around [tyr, tiw < tiwaz < deywiz < PIE - Deywos] then yes, it makes perfect sense taking into account Grimm's law.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 12:54
From the original meaning "arrow", Tir has another meaning in Persian too.

http://www.essene.com/B'nai-Amen/angelZara.htm: "13. The Star Sirius, brightest star in the heavens. On the day of Tir (Sirius) send your children to learn archery and jousting and horsemanship.", Avesta

Nordic Runes
By Paul Rhys Mountfort
Published by Inner Traditions / Bear & Company, 2003

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 13:56
This one is really interesting to read:

The Aryan Origin Of The Alphabet: Disclosing The Sumero Phoenician Parentage Of Our Letters Ancient And Modern
By L. Austine Waddell
Published by Kessinger Publishing, 2004



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 14:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 15:20
I should mention here too that Gathic was an ancient Iranian language and Gothic was an ancient Germanic language.

You know Iranian "Baga" and Slavic "Boga" mean "God", what was Bogatyr, God of the Arrow or God of War?

Website of Crimea: http://www.tourism.crimea.ua/eng/about/legends/black-sea/index.html

Why the Black Sea turbulent


The fairy-tale bogatyr lived in the world, he had an unheard strength and unseen courage. And he had an amazing arm - it was a fairy-tale arrow. It possessed the magic property. In the place where it was flowing the air was blazing up, the water started to boil, the ground was melting and everything alive was dying.

It was a dreadful arm! Fortunately it was in reliable hands. Bogatyr was sensible and just man, he did not take the fiery arrow without any need. He did not encroach on the other countries and the enemies were afraid to attack his native land.

Bogatyr lived for many years but the time to die came. And bogatyr fell to thinking: to whom should he hand the arrow down? To sons-heirs? It was impossible. Though they were honest and brave warriors they were too young and hot. They would not resist the temptation to try the power of arm and the fratricidal war would break out.

And bogatyr decided to hide the magic arrow in such a way that nobody could have found it during the millenniums. And only when people were tired to fight, learned to take care and appreciate the world at last, then they would find that arrow in order to use its magic power in the peaceful labour.

Bogatyr called his sons and told them:

- My sons, I have very little time to live in the world. Listen to my last will: take the golden arrow, you have already heard about its dreadful power, throw it in the middle of the Black Sea, the deepest sea in the world.

They were going for along or for a short time and suddenly the blue mountains appeared before them. Their high peaks proped up the blue and limpid sky as if it were from crystal. The brothers climbed up the blue mountains and the magestic picture was open to their look: huge boundless sea stretched far off below. It was sleeping yet wraped by the morning pinkish haze. The red ball of the rising sun was reflected in its silent water.

It was the Black Sea.

And suddenly the brothers felt sorry to part with precious arrow and they were seized with ambitious dreams. The brothers came to an agreement to hide the arrow in the mountains and to tell the father that they had fulfilled his will if he was alive by their coming back.

Their surprise was great when having come home they got to know that the father had discovered their plan somehow. The father went for his sons indignantly blaming them for parential disobedience.

- You will not get my blessing,- he said,- untill the majestic arrow lays the bottom of the Black Sea.

Then the sons having made sure of impossibility to keep the magic arm went again to the shores of the distant sea and fulfilled father's order.

The fire arrow fell into the sea abyss. The sea has darkened because of the anger, boiled, its silent water rose in waves.

Since the Black Sea cannot calm down. From time to time it seethes, boils, rises its huge waves trying vainly to throw out the mortal arm from its entrails.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 17:28
The book you mention, "The Aryan origin..." appears to be nothing but a load of rubbish. For example, there is NO symbol for "Ti" in Old Persian, only "Ta" and "Tu".

As for the meaning of Bogatyr (богатырь), wiki suggests it is connected to an Altaic word. Not of IE origin, therefore not connected in any way to either Bog or Tyr. Please note that the "y" is but an imperfect transliteration of the Cyrillic "ы", which is rather a compound sound, starting with a very closed, guttural vowel and ending with {i}.


Edited by khshayathiya - 13-Apr-2009 at 17:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 17:30

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

You know Iranian "Baga" and Slavic "Boga" mean "God", what was Bogatyr, God of the Arrow or God of War?

Just to be precise, the Slavic form is Bog. Though, it has no connection to Bogatyr, which is of Altaic origin and entered Old Russian in medieval times. Neither is there any connection between -tyr in Bogatyr and Týr - there is a different vowel. I'm telling you that because I assume you thought so. The Ы in Богатыр (in English transcribed as BogatYr) is a close central unrounded vowel, while the ý in Týr stands for a close front rounded vowel.

And to answer your question, neither. Bogatyr was no god, but a heroic warrior.

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