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Forum LockedTurkish and Hungarian language simmilarities

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkish and Hungarian language simmilarities
    Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 07:00
Let us see examples in Turkish and Hungarian:

elma         alma     apple
elmam      almám   my apple
elmalarım  almáim  my apples

ada sziget island
adam szigetem my island
adalarım szigeteim my islands

Ev ház house
evim házam my house
evlerim házaim my houses

çocuku gyerek child
çocuğum gyerekem my child
çocuklarım gyerekeim my children


In Turkish the possessive affix for the first person can take the following
forms after a consonant, abiding the vowel harmony with four forms:
-ım/im/üm/um

After a vocal : -m

For plural –lerim/- larım compound affixes are used, where –ler/-lar are plural forms using the sound harmony with two forms, -ım/im are logically the possessive affixes

The vowel harmony or rule with four forms ( the affix vocal is set according to the vocal in the last syllable of the word) :

i type affix after e, i
ü after ö,ü
ı after a , ı
u after o,u

The sound harmony with two forms:
e after e, i, ö, ü
a after a, ı, o, u

In Hungarian also the vowels can be interconnected through the laws of vowel harmony, the affixes can take two or three forms, usually agree with the last vowel in stem:

a, e (-ban,ben in ) , ((v)al,(v)el with), (ba,be into),(ra-re onto) á,é (nál,nél at),((v)á,(v)é into a) ó,ő (ból,ből from) (tól,től from nearby)
u,ü (ul,ül for ,by) o,e,ö (hoz,hez,höz to )

Exemples: ház házban, kocsi kocsiban,mese mesében ,alma almában,víz vízben, film filmben tükör tükörben,kút kútban,

In Hungarian the possessive affix is –m, all stems with final a,e are altered in á,é before most affixes. The oblique stem is an exception : torok (throat) torkom (my throat) gyomor (stomach), gyomrom (my stomach),dal (song) dalom (my song),

In Hungarian two plural are used –k : gyerek, gyerekek , the other plural -i is used only with person affixes, gyerekeimet my children, in accusative.



Expressing possession,existence:

Bir kalemim var. Egy tollam van. I have a pen.
Ali’nin bir kalemi var. Alinak van egy tolla. Ali has a pen.
Zeynep’in bir çocuğu var. Zeynepnek egy gyereke van. Zeynep has a child.
Cebimde çok elma var. Zsebemben sok alma van. I have many apples in my pocket.
Cebimde çok küçük elma var. Zsebemben sok kicsi alma van. I have many little apples in my pocket.

Kimin kitabı ? Kinek a könyve? Whose book?
Words:
Kim = Ki = Who, çok = sok = many, küçük = kicsi = little, bir = egy = one, kalem=toll=pen
Cebi=zseb=pocket

To express that there is something in Turkish the word var is used, in Hungarian van. Also for the expression of possession var in Turkish,van in Hungarian is used.

The possessed noun in Turkish gets the i, ı, ü,u (the possessive affix of the third person singular, if the word ends with a consonant the si, sı, sü,su ) endings and the possessor the in, ın, ün,un if it ends with a consonant otherwise it will be intercaleted –n.

Hungarian:
a fiú(-nak a) könyv-e
the boy(-DAT DET) book-3SGPOSS
'the boy's book'
The possessor gets the –nak/-nek endings of the dative case and the possessed noun gets the possessive affix of the third person singular, if we want to express or stress a definit thing, otherwise the simple form is used: a fiú könyv-e

The simmilarity of the personal pronouns.

Kim o? Ki ő ? Who is he/she?

ben én notable simmilarity
sen te
o ő notable simmilarity
biz mi
siz ti
onlar ők notable simmilarity (the third person plural is formed with the use of pluralform from singular)

Also look at the sen te, siz ti forms:
ben>biz én>mi
sen>siz te>ti

The iz form comes up in the turkish affixes for the first and second person plural.
possessive affixes of the first and second person plural
-imiz/ımız/umuz/ümüz
-iniz/ınız/unuz/ünüz
verbal affixes of the first and second person plural
-iz/ız/uz/üz
- siniz/sınız/sunuz/sünüz

elmam almám my apple
elmamız almánk our apple


Simmilarity of the question asking particles:

Kim =ki =who Kim o? = Ki ő? Who is he/she? Iyi arkadaşım. Egy jó barátom. A good friend of mine.
(iyi=jó=good, y stands for the hungarian j)

Kiminle=kivel=with whom
nerede=merre,hol
ne =mi =what? Ne var? Mi van? What is ? Or What is available? What can be found?
kaç=hány = how many?

Past tense signs in Turkish: di/dı/dü/du
-after ç, f, h, k, p, s, ş, t: ti/tı/tü/tu

In hungarian the sign of past tence is –t

geldim = jöttem I came
yaptım =csináltam  I made
geldik== jöttünk    We came.
yaptık =csináltunk  We made.

Also the verbal affix -m for the first person singular is the same in hungarian and turkish,the difference is that in Hungarian is used to express a definit thing at present tence.

Thus, there are two first person singular suffixes in the non-past form of the verb : -k is used with an indefinite direct object and -m is used with definite objects. Note that both suffixes also refer to the first person singular noun.

Gazete okuyorum = Újságot olvasok. I read a newspaper.
Gazeteyi okuyorum = Olvasom az újságot. I read the newspaper.

And a film for all of you:
Cebimde Çok Küçük Elma Var - Zsebemben Sok Kicsi Alma Van


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tosun Saral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 05:05
To everlasting memory of my grandfather Ismail Hakki Efendi, the Imam of 97th Regiment who was killed im 1915.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 12:16
This similarity could be the result of the words borowing from each other.
Or a possile third group like scythian, which affacted both Turks and Hungarian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 12:47
Nice job guys!
I've been reading about this. Can someone tell me if the Finnish language falls in the same branch as well? 


SĂĄ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 12:51
It looks like, It is time for to learn hungarian.
 
Hungarian and Turkish gramer is similar to each other, but I dont think this mean much. I think, this is only a large langauge group.
 
This similarity could be the result of the words borowing from each other.
Or a possile third group like scythian, which affacted both Turks and Hungarian.
 
wrong, nations borrow generally words, not gramers.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 23:58
Originally posted by shinai shinai wrote:

This similarity could be the result of the words borowing from each other.
Or a possile third group like scythian, which affacted both Turks and Hungarian.


I think you should be able to say which language scythians spoke first to make above postulation.

Another thing is borrowing loan words between languages is indeed a common phenomenum, some grammatical features also might get changed (if the contact is very strong), however basic root words and basic grammatical structure is much more stable than you thought.


    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 16:46

Barbar, scythian were an Iranic nation, similar to Persian,and meds so they were speaking a language close to old persian, or median.

They were the basic element of nomadic life in Eurasia, and contributed too much to the nations like Turks, Mongols and Huns.

Hungarians also were in contact with scythians as were Turks.

Hangarian is not an Altaic language, so please help me to find its relation with Turkish.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 15:18
Shinai
Barbar, scythian were an Iranic nation
 
Scythians were a "nation"? they were rather a confederacy of Steppe tribes under decentralised rule, the Scythian terrortory included the Altay area so its likely their were Turkic tribes aswell and who knows how many other's.
 
Scythians were Scythians it would be incorrect to link them directly to any nation today, as we don't know what language they spoke, they themselves wern't of "pure" blood (nobody is) and later ceased to exist mixing with many people's, over two millenia its possible for anybody to be related to a Scythian if they go back far enough.
 
 
Shinai
They were the basic element of nomadic life in Eurasia, and contributed too much to the nations like Turks, Mongols and Huns.
 
And where is the evidence for this? we don't even know for sure who the Scythians were and its unlikely they were a "single" people's.
 
Hungarian and Turkic languages have some gramatic similarities.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 16:43
Originally posted by gerik gerik wrote:


elma         alma     apple
elmam      almám   my apple
elmalarım  almáim  my apples


Actually in Balkan Turkish, which is somewhat more archaic than Modern Turkish, we still say alma for apple.

Thanks for posting this, I never realized Hungarian and Turkish were so similar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2006 at 00:25
Originally posted by shinai shinai wrote:

Barbar, scythian were an Iranic nation, similar to Persian,and meds so they were speaking a language close to old persian, or median.


They were the basic element of nomadic life in Eurasia, and contributed too much to the nations like Turks, Mongols and Huns.


Hungarians also were in contact with scythians as were Turks.


Hangarian is not an Altaic language, so please help me to find its relation with Turkish.




Look shinai, let's assume Scythians are Iranic speaking people, but the similarities between Turkish and Hungarian are not due to the Indo-european features in these two languages, rather Uralo-Alraic features. That's my point.

I'm pretty sure any large nomadic confederacy like Scythians couldn't be homoethnic. Scythians were not the only basic element in Euroasia. Huns and other indo-european tribes had longer history of nomadic life in the steppe.

Indeed, Hungarian isn't Altaic. Although it's in the Uralic group, it belongs to quite seperate group of Ugric together with two other Siberian languages. I believe firmly that Ugric is Oghuric. Oghur equals Oghuz. (Turkic tribes). Early Turkic migrants to Europe had strong contact with Uralic people (of course on their way with   Indo-european people), which might caused the linguistical seperation, or you might say Magyars (Hungarians) were oringinally Uralic people with strong contact with Turkic people, however, analysis of tribal structure of early Magyars shows they had predominant Turkic element. Linguistical comparison between Chuwash and Hungarian might make more sense since chuwash kept more archaic feature of Turkic language.



    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2006 at 00:36
Originally posted by bg_turk bg_turk wrote:


Originally posted by gerik gerik wrote:



elma                    alma          apple              elmam               almám    my apple
elmalarım      almáim    my apples

Actually in Balkan Turkish, which is somewhat more archaic than Modern Turkish, we still say alma for apple. Thanks for posting this, I never realized Hungarian and Turkish were so similar.

    

I did realize that when you give an example of "sikilish" in another thread, which is derived from "siq", the act of holding very tight.

In Uyghur Turkish we also say "alma".

I have a friend in Hungary, who told me Hungarian is very easy for an Uyghur to learn. I have no personal experience though.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tosun Saral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 14:50
We are discussing this thema in another forum in German. If you know german you can learn about the roots of Turks and Hungarians.
 We have many similar words and a similar grammer. We all know the sentence:
Turkish "Cebimde çok küçük elma var"
Hungarian "Zsebemben Sok Kicsi Alma Van"
English: I have many little apples in my pocket"
 
But what we didnt know I learned  recently by a reception at Austrian Embassy in Ankara though an old friend of mine with whom we studied at the University of Vienna in the years 1961-65. He was Turkish consul at Finland. He told me the following sentence that I already swollowed my tongue:
Finnish: MINUN/Minun UNAOHTAMATON NUKKU    SINUN/Sinun OLKOON
Turkish  Benim       Unutulmayan  Uykum    Senin       Olsun
German:  Mein             nich vergessbarer Traum Dein              sein
English:   My                not forgetable  dream      yours             be   


Edited by Tosun Saral - 10-Dec-2006 at 14:55
To everlasting memory of my grandfather Ismail Hakki Efendi, the Imam of 97th Regiment who was killed im 1915.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 08:15
Perhaps the similarities between the Hungarian and Turkish languages can be traced to the Balkirs.  Balkirs are a Moslem people from the Ural region who speak a Finno Ugaric language.    Maybe....
 
- Proto Hungarians / Balkirs are one people living in the Ural region.  The "Protos" slowly start to convert from Shamanism to Islam, and are more inclined to trade with Moslem Turks and borrow some Turkish words / sentence structures.  Also, Moslem Turkic groups may have actually  introduced both Islam and Turkic words etc. to protos.   
-Hungarians then migrate to Hungary before Shamansim to Islam conversion is complete.  Hungarians then convert to Christianity after migration.  They do, however, keep some Turkish word / sentence structures.   


Edited by Cryptic - 18-Dec-2006 at 11:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote werbulchu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 10:33
    In these days here in Hungary, we are paying much attention to Balint Gabor's reserches. He quested in Kalmükia, which is a region in Estern Europe (North-West the Kaspi sea) in 1870. This news was annunced by Agnes Birtalan, the head of the Inner-Mongolian Department at university ELTE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote werbulchu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 10:40
In these days here in Hungary, we are paying much attention to Balint Gabor's reserches. He quested in Kalmükia, which is a region in Estern Europe (North-West the Kaspi sea) in 1870. This news was annunced by Agnes Birtalan, the head of the Inner-Mongolian Department at university ELTE.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Etherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 00:09
Hungarian and Turkish are not closely related languages. They exist in separate language families (Uralic and Altaic, respectively). While there may well be a higher relationship between Uralic and Altaic (and Indo-European for that matter), Hungarian is in no way an Altaic language.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 00:32

Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Nice job guys!
I've been reading about this. Can someone tell me if the Finnish language falls in the same branch as well? 

 
Originally posted by Etherman Etherman wrote:

Hungarian and Turkish are not closely related languages. They exist in separate language families (Uralic and Altaic, respectively). While there may well be a higher relationship between Uralic and Altaic (and Indo-European for that matter), Hungarian is in no way an Altaic language.
 
Finnish, Turkish, Hungarian, Mongolian and I believe Japanese as well, belongs to the Ural-Altaic language group.
 
While Hungarian and Finnish is in the Ural branch, the rest is in the Altaic branch.
 
The languages inside the same language group has similarities; that's the reason the groups were formed and divisions were made...If they are on the same group, a lamp is on; they are related...If they are in the same branch; second lamp, they are even more related...So, related they are in a certain degree, especially regarding the structure of language


Edited by Kapikulu - 30-Dec-2006 at 01:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hohoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 13:57
I think the "Ural-Altaic" theory as such is dead. The more serious Nostratic theory however includes Uralic and Altaic but there is no such thing as Ural-Altaic (i.e. if the Nostratic theory is true, they both are separate branches of Nostratic.

The Finnish pronoun "sinä" (thou) comes from earlier *ti(nä). T changed to s when i comes next.

The "Finnish" sentence
"MINUN/Minun UNAOHTAMATON NUKKU    SINUN/Sinun OLKOON" makes no sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages

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