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    Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 09:14
My apologies to the individuals whose topics I've helped to hijack.  The discussion seemed to focus around the differences of Turkic languages.
For those who speak more than one Turkic language, or have knowledge on the matter...
 
This is what I contend and what I have found to be true in my own experience (being a somewhat fluent speaker of Southern Turkmen and Uzbek).  It is possible for speakers of the following languages to understand one another without any formal training as long as their ear gets used to the accent and can distinguish individual words: Turkmen, Uzbek, Uyghur, Turkish, Azeri.  I have kept the Kipchak languages out simply because I think the differences are much greater and because I don't have much experience with those languages.  Your input would be appreciated.
 
Most Turkic languages have mutual intelligibility and have the following things in common:
Most Turkic languages have Arabic loan words.
Most Turkic languages have Persian loan words.
Some Turkic languages (CA) have Russian loan words.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 18:18

I agree with most of what you have written, the structure and grammar is very similar. Infact its possible for somebody from Azerbaycan to go to Eastern Turkistan and get by with just having a dictionary. This is because its possible to use the same structure, what changes is some lexis, if the different words are learnt it becomes very easy to pick up as the logic is the same.

Also the distinction between Turkmen/Oz'bek/Uyghur/Turkish/Azeri can really become blurred.

For example, there are accents in Turkey more distinct in sound to standard Turkish than the Turkish of Azerbaycan is. In addition to this, the accent of Elazig, Erzerum, Igdir, Kars and some other parts of Eastern Turkey are nothing short of Azerbaycan Turkish.

Also, Uyghur and Oz'bek, it can be argued that these two are even more similar to each other than Turkey and Azerbaycan Turkish.

Then there are accents in Ozbekistan, Khwarezm accent is close to Turkmen and more easily understood by Azerbaycan and Turkey Turkish speakers.

Its possible for say somebody from Turkmenistan to simply go to Turkey and without any formal training of language school adapt and used to the Turkish spoken there. People from Turkey and Azerbaycan, Eastern Turkistan/Xinjiang and Oz'bekistan to understand each other fluently without having to go anywhere. A person from Turkey will only have a basic grasp of understanding people in Oz'bekistan, however, if they went to work or live there its not difficult to adjust the ear and adapt without any major difficulty.

 
 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jalair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2007 at 20:02
No doubt silmilarities of grammer and original words exist, the question is why and how the differences occured?  Differences may not be limited to accent, vowels or loan words.
 
In Afghanistan Andkhoi Uzbek is more close to Tashkent accent compare to Maimana, Saripol and Takhar. In Badakhshan, Takhar, Kunduz and Samangan initial Y is replaced with J but not in Andkhoi, Saripol and Maimana.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 03:09
The 7th Turkic World Economy, Informatics & Culture Forum just finished 2 days ago. I was there(Near East University).
Mostly; Central Asian participants made their speechs in Russian, Turkish-Cypriot and Azerbaijanian participants made their speechs in Turkish/Azerbaijanian.
We had a simultaneus translation system(Turkish-Russian, Russian-Turkish) to understand each other.


Edited by erkut - 16-Dec-2007 at 03:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khutulun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 06:50
Originally posted by Jalair Jalair wrote:

No doubt silmilarities of grammer and original words exist, the question is why and how the differences occured?  Differences may not be limited to accent, vowels or loan words.
 
In Afghanistan Andkhoi Uzbek is more close to Tashkent accent compare to Maimana, Saripol and Takhar. In Badakhshan, Takhar, Kunduz and Samangan initial Y is replaced with J but not in Andkhoi, Saripol and Maimana.
 
 
After the battle of Gok Tepe, many inhabitants from different parts of Turkistan began leaving to escape the Russians...all the way up to the point when Stalin sealed the border.  A great number just moved a little south into Northern Afghanistan (still referred to as Turkistan by the inhabitants) where there were already established Uzbek/Turkmens living.  The diversity in accent in this small area has a great deal to do with this migration south. 
 
lol @ the Y and J...we used to call them JuqJuqlar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khutulun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 07:00
Originally posted by erkut erkut wrote:

The 7th Turkic World Economy, Informatics & Culture Forum just finished 2 days ago. I was there(Near East University).
Mostly; Central Asian participants made their speechs in Russian, Turkish-Cypriot and Azerbaijanian participants made their speechs in Turkish/Azerbaijanian.
We had a simultaneus translation system(Turkish-Russian, Russian-Turkish) to understand each other.
 
Can you tell us a bit about this forum, what its aims are, what they've accomplished...etc.  I looked it up but didn't find a site that provided detailed information.  I wonder if the official use of Russian by CA countries would lesson in the coming decades because the younger generation are educated in their own language now?  Or perhaps it will be a lasting legacy from their days of occupation.  When the delegates were not acting in their official capacity, what language were they speaking? Or were they speaking Russian in informal settings as well?  Very interesting, thank you for the information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 21:20
Quote Khutlun
After the battle of Gok Tepe, many inhabitants from different parts of Turkistan began leaving to escape the Russians...all the way up to the point when Stalin sealed the border.  A great number just moved a little south into Northern Afghanistan (still referred to as Turkistan by the inhabitants)
 
I agree, many of the Basmachi feld to North Afganistan, referred to the locals as South Turkistan, it was long used as a base against the Soviets.
 
 
Quote Khutlun
Can you tell us a bit about this forum, what its aims are, what they've accomplished...etc.  I looked it up but didn't find a site that provided detailed information.  I wonder if the official use of Russian by CA countries would lesson in the coming decades because the younger generation are educated in their own language now?  Or perhaps it will be a lasting legacy from their days of occupation.  When the delegates were not acting in their official capacity, what language were they speaking? Or were they speaking Russian in informal settings as well? 
 
Russian is already becomming foreign to the youth in Turkmenistan and Oz'bekistan, its most in use today in Kazakistan.
 
I'm not sure aboout that forum but the recent congress of Turkic states in Azerbaijan was held in Turkic language and had thousands of representatives.
 
 
11th Friendship, Brotherhood, and Cooperation Congress of Turkic States and Communities in Baku
 
 
Recep Tayyip Erdogan: Common Turkic language should be formed and common history should be written and taught
 
They pledged to establish a common Turkic alphabet and joint cross border Turkic media chanels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jalair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 06:27

Was there any support from Southern Turkistan ( Uzbeks, turkmans etc) to Basmachi movement?

Ibrahim Laqai was fighting against Russians for years from northern Afghanistan. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 16:44
Originally posted by khutulun khutulun wrote:

Can you tell us a bit about this forum, what its aims are, what they've accomplished...etc.  I looked it up but didn't find a site that provided detailed information.  I wonder if the official use of Russian by CA countries would lesson in the coming decades because the younger generation are educated in their own language now?  Or perhaps it will be a lasting legacy from their days of occupation.  When the delegates were not acting in their official capacity, what language were they speaking? Or were they speaking Russian in informal settings as well?  Very interesting, thank you for the information.
 
That forum organised by TİKA (http://www.tika.gov.tr/TR/)
All participants could speak Turkish(Kazak, Kirgiz, Azer, Turk) but it was hard to undrstand eachother, thats why we used simultaneus translation system. For example everybody made their opening speech in their own language, but Turks couldnt understand Kazak and Hakas participants(Kirgiz profosor was speaking in Turkey Turkish).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 16:50

From my experience alot more people in Turkic states not including Turkey know Turkey's Turkish, while Turks of Turkey don't make as much effort to learn the other states dialects.

Most of the Turks from Turkey I know who worked or lived in another Turkic state never went to any language school but can now fully understand the Turkic where they were.
 
Personally, I feel that a joint alphabet should be formed, then all the dialects taught in state education, I don't feel a joint language should be artificially created. Instead, as a by-product of our rapidly globallising world, as different Turkic peoples mix and learn each others dialects they will use words and terms from each other, over a few generations a Turkic lingua-franca will appear on its own.


Edited by Bulldog - 18-Dec-2007 at 16:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote man2rk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 19:18
It's the same problem that arabs once met. they couldn't communicate each-other before Fus'ha arabic( an arabic lingua-franca )invented artificially for them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 12:19
Turkish and Ozbek or Kyrgyz are not 'dialects', they are different languages. Turkish and Azeri can be called dialects of Oguz Turkic, but languages such as Kazakh or Ozbek are not Oguz. Turkish and Kazakh are like English and German in mutual intelligibility.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote man2rk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 17:28
maybe you never studied about turkic languages. the uzbek turkic language is consists of karluk, kipchak and oguz. if you go there you can feel that yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 17:55
Quote Beylerbeyi
Turkish and Kazakh are like English and German in mutual intelligibility.


Turkish and Kazakh are the least mutually intellegible compared to the Oghuz and Karluk/Chaghtay groups. However, saying that the difference is like English and German is a hyperbolic exageration.

Turkish and Kazakh grammar is the same, the differences are in the lexis and certain sounds ie a Turk who goes to Kazakhstan will adjust to Kazakh over a few months as the structure is essentially the same. If you had a Kazakh dictionary all you would need to do is talk how you normally would and substitute the different words to their Kazakh equivalent.

German and English grammar have many differences, for example "gender" differences, stone is a masculine in German, this is not the case in English.

Ozbek-Uygur (They are the same, like Turkish-Azeri possibly even closer) is much closer to Oghuz than Kazakh is, there has been much more interaction and literary exchanges as both were lingua-francas, "Turki" of Turkistan which is closest to today Ozbek-Uygur was the main form of Turkic in Central Asia for centuries, likewise Oghuz was the major Turkic in the Ottoman/Azerbaycan lands. However, Oz'bek recieved more influence from Qipchak due to the Oz'bek influence.

As I wrote before on a few threads, Turkic are dialect continuums, there is no direct split they slowly shift as you go through the regions.


Edited by Bulldog - 09-Feb-2009 at 17:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 18:48
Turkish, Ozbek and Kazakh are all in different branches of the Turkic languages (namely the southwestern, southeastern and northwestern branches), they are not 'dialects' or 'dialect continuums' (any more than all other languages are):

I speak both English and German they are very similar. Lack of gender in English does not matter as you can speak German without the gender and retain 99% of the intelligibility.
It does not matter whether you say 'der stein' or 'das stein' or 'die stein' the German speaker will understand the word 'stein' which means 'stone'.

Turkish and Kazakh are different languages and mutual intelligibility between the two are low. Similar to English and German as I wrote. I have close Kazakh friends and we communicate in English and German. It was not possible to communicate when I spoke Turkish and they Kazakh. This is definitely not the case with the Azeris or Turks from Cyprus or Bulgaria, with whom I can communicate speaking Turkish. 


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 09-Feb-2009 at 18:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 20:48
Quote Beylerbeyi
Turkish, Ozbek and Kazakh are all in different branches of the Turkic languages (namely the southwestern, southeastern and northwestern branches), they are not 'dialects' or 'dialect continuums' (any more than all other languages are):


Turkic is a dialect continuum, I'll explain why. If we start from Turkey Turkish (including Turkish spoken in the Balkans and Cyprus) there is no dividing line between the Turkish spoken in Azerbaycan with the Turkish spoken in Turkey, it just gradually shifts in Anatolia to the extent that there are people in Turkey with accents similar to that spoken in Azerbaycan and Iran than standard Istabul accent. The Turkish spoken in Syria/Iraq, is similar to that spoken in the surrounding regions in Turkey and Azerbaycan/Iran. North of Turkey, the Crimean Tatars, Tatars and Turkic speakers in Caucusus gradually shifts to something inbetween Oghuz/Kipchak. Travelling East from Azerbaycan through Northern Iran there is a shift to Turkmen. Further East there is a shift around the Khwarezm region which is inbetween Oghuz and Karluk/Chaghtai, this is also similar in the Northern Afganistan regions. Then from Ozbekistan to Eastern Turkistan/Xinjiang there is a very small shift as its practically the same. North of Ozbekistan there is a shift around Karakalpak region to Qipchak dialect ie Kazakh. 

There are no clear boundries, cut off points or areas where one stops and the other begins, its a classic example of "dialect continuum". People living in the inbetween regions have adjusted their ear to both dialects but people living further apart have bigger differences except in cases where there has been more linguistic contacts. For example, Ozbek-Uygur is much more similar to Oghuz due to historic reasons like alot of literature being written in both and read by both sides. For example, Suleyman the Magnificent had books of Ali Sher Navoi in his library, Fuzulli was influenced by Navoi, later Turkistani poets were inspired by Fuzulli and so forth.

This is why the Turkish of Turkey is closer and has higher mutual intellebility with that spoken in Uygur regions than Kazakistan.

Quote Beylerbeyi
I speak both English and German they are very similar. Lack of gender in English does not matter as you can speak German without the gender and retain 99% of the intelligibility.
It does not matter whether you say 'der stein' or 'das stein' or 'die stein' the German speaker will understand the word 'stein' which means 'stone'.


I lived in Germany for half a year, I picked up no German and didn't understand even basic sentances maybe because I spent most my time getting by speaking Turkish LOL

Maybe it was just me but can English speakers with no language classes adjust to German just be living there?


Edited by Bulldog - 09-Feb-2009 at 20:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2009 at 21:11
I have seen examples of Apache and Navajo Indian writing and I thought Navajo looked closets to the Turkish or Turkic language. I know the Apache and Navajo speak a related language and have the same ancestral roots. I would love to learn Turkish but nobody speaks it here so I gave up, Greek also.   I like the fact there are no masculine or feminine nouns, no articles and they speak slow, unlike Spanish or Greek.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 09:01
Only Azerbaijanis and Turkey Turks can understand each other.

Also, Iranian Azeri or Southern Azeri dialect are much closer to Turkish then Northern Azeri is.

Northern Azeri are more like Kipchak and with more Russian influence and less Persian & Arabic influence.

For exampell, in Turkey's Azeri population they speak the Southern Azeri dialect.

So i would say Southern Azeri are pretty much like Turkish, even the sound of it.

They also talk soft like Turkish. LOL




Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 10-Feb-2009 at 09:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 09:11
Also, i think it would be good to post a map:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 11:37


Turkic language map.


Edited by Bulldog - 10-Feb-2009 at 11:38
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