History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedWhat if China found Mexico first?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 8>
Author
ITZOCELOTL View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 22-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 84
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if China found Mexico first?
    Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 19:15

I heard that China built a large fleet and planned exploration before Europe did  but was halted by their emperor who saw it as a waste of time. What year was this when China had the largest fleet in the world? and would the Chinese have  commited genocide, rape, destruction of culture, destruction of cities, destruction of  religion, stealing of gold and wealth, and pure chaotic death as the Spaniards did? Or would the Chinese simply share their culture with the Mexicans and the Mexicans share theirs and begin trade between the two nations?

Also Chinese and Japanese  culture was similar to Mexican culture  for example the use of jade, warrior schools, spicy foods, religion, governement  and philosophy.



Edited by ITZOCELOTL
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
   -Emiliano Zapata-    
Back to Top
ITZOCELOTL View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 22-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 84
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 19:21

I also found this article-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/03 /04/nexp04.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/03/04/ixhome.html

when Columbus discovered America in 1492, he was 72 years too late.And so were other explorers, such as Cook, Magellan and Da Gama, whose heroic voyages took them to Australia, South America and India. Instead, according to Gavin Menzies, a former submarine commanding officer who has spent 14 years charting the movements of a Chinese expeditionary fleet between 1421 and 1423, the eunuch admiral, Zheng He, was there first. According to Menzies, it was Zheng He, in his colossal multi-masted ships stuffed with treasure, silks and porcelain, who made the first circumnavigation of the world, beating the Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan by a century. Menzies will present his findings at the Royal Geographical Society on March 15 before an invited audience of more than 200 diplomats, academics, naval officers and publishers. Their initial reaction, based on an outline of his thesis, ranges from excitement to scepticism.  But if the number of acceptances - 85 per cent - is anything to go by, he will not be ignored. He originally intended to write a book about the significance of the year 1421 around the world. While researching it in Venice, he was shown a planisphere, dated 1459, which included southern Africa and the Cape of Good Hope.  Yet the Cape was not "discovered" as a sea route by Vasco da Gama until 1497. On the planisphere was a note in medieval Phoenician about a voyage round the Cape to the Cape Verde Islands in 1420 - and a picture of a Chinese junk.

 

Chinese ocean-going supremacy in the first half of the 15th century is not in question.

The expeditionary junks were three times the size of Nelson's Victory and dwarfed the 16th century ocean-going European caravels. Under his patron, the Yong-le Emperor Zhui Di, Zheng He made seven great voyages to bring foreigners into China's tribute system.

When he returned in October 1423, China was in political and economic chaos. The treasure fleet, now considered frivolous, was mothballed, admirals pensioned off and shipyards closed.Although most of the records of Zheng He's voyage were expunged, a few maps and star charts survived.



Edited by ITZOCELOTL
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
   -Emiliano Zapata-    
Back to Top
Adan'ta View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 08-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adan'ta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 20:36
Zheng He was a Muslim, so he would've undoubtedly wanted to "kill the infidels," much like the Christians did when they arrived. Not to mention, the Chinese weren't the kindest people in the world (at any point in their history), so they probably would've attempted to conquer later on, had they been successful at establishing a settlement or trading post. They most likely wouldn't have been able to conquer the Aztecs, though (at least, not as easily). Remember, the Chinese also possessed horses, germs and steel at this point (and I believe guns as well).
Back to Top
flyingzone View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Dec-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2635
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 21:31

I totally disagree with Adan'ta's analysis. The mission of Zheng He's expenditions was never to set up overseas colonies or even trading posts. These expenditions were like a series of (very expensive) campaigns to demonstrate to the outside world the power, wealth, and grandiose of the Ming Empire. (The Ming Empire was THE most powerful empire in the world at that time.) Zheng He was above all an admiral/explorator, not a merchant. Moreover, to say that since Zheng He was a Muslim, he would have undoubtedly wanted to "kill the infidels" is a very ethnocentric and islamophobic way to look at history and historical figures.

During the various Chinese empires' expansionist campaigns, I am pretty sure atrocities had been committed against other less powerful nations. But that's the nature of wars and that definitely does not make the Chinese more or less cruel than any other nations on earth.

In order to make an intelligent guess of what would have happened if Zheng He had "discovered" Mexico first, one has to understand the ancient Chinese political theory - the "Middle Kingdom" world view - in order to appreciate the perceived relations between the Chinese Empire with its surrouding and less powerful nations. The Chinese didn't see any real need to establish a vast overseas empire because they felt they had everything they needed. Instead they preferred to establish some kind of a tributary system under which some states were actually protectorates or vassal states of the Chinese Empire while some simply acknolwedged the Empire's suzerainty.

That explains why Zheng He's overseas expenditions were largely peaceful. So I doubt if he had indeed "found" Mexico, he and his troops would have committed the same atrocities that the Spaniards did.

Just to take a more realistic example, the Ming Empire never committed any atrocities in the Ryukyu Kingdom (present day Okinawa). It did exert quite a lot of influence on the Ryukyu royal court which actually saw a lot of advantages in being the Empire's vassal state both politically and economically.

Back to Top
Adan'ta View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 08-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adan'ta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 22:50
Originally posted by flyingzone flyingzone wrote:

I totally disagree with Adan'ta's analysis. The mission of Zheng He's expenditions was never to set up overseas colonies or even trading posts.

Agreed, but I never claimed they were. I was merely speculating on the results of his expeditions. In fact, I don't believe I even addressed the reasons for launching the expeditions. Your next sentence is the truth.

These expenditions were like a series of (very expensive) campaigns to demonstrate to the outside world the power, wealth, and grandiose of the Ming Empire. (The Ming Empire was THE most powerful empire in the world at that time.) Zheng He was above all an admiral/explorator, not a merchant. Moreover, to say that since Zheng He was a Muslim, he would have undoubtedly wanted to "kill the infidels" is a very ethnocentric and islamophobic way to look at history and historical figures.

Islamophobic? Granted, I'm not a fan of Islam (and Christianity's no better), but my views are based on my knowledge of Islam's impact on the world. Take, for example, Islam's expansion into Southeast Asia. As a result of this, Buddhism was nearly wiped out, statues and temples destroyed, etc, etc. If you tell me that Muslims are tolerant of other religions historically, then your analysis would be grossly inaccurate. They are no better than the Christians in terms of tolerance.

During the various Chinese empires' expansionist campaigns, I am pretty sure atrocities had been committed against other less powerful nations. But that's the nature of wars and that definitely does not make the Chinese more or less cruel than any other nations on earth.

In order to make an intelligent guess of what would have happened if Zheng He had "discovered" Mexico first, one has to understand the ancient Chinese political theory - the "Middle Kingdom" world view - in order to appreciate the perceived relations between the Chinese Empire with its surrouding and less powerful nations. The Chinese didn't see any real need to establish a vast overseas empire because they felt they had everything they needed. Instead they preferred to establish some kind of a tributary system under which some states were actually protectorates or vassal states of the Chinese Empire while some simply acknolwedged the Empire's suzerainty.

That explains why Zheng He's overseas expenditions were largely peaceful. So I doubt if he had indeed "found" Mexico, he and his troops would have committed the same atrocities that the Spaniards did.

Just to take a more realistic example, the Ming Empire never committed any atrocities in the Ryukyu Kingdom (present day Okinawa). It did exert quite a lot of influence on the Ryukyu royal court which actually saw a lot of advantages in being the Empire's vassal state both politically and economically.

Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6571
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 23:18
The Chinese were very interested in exporting products in exchange of silver (in fact it seems that actually 1/3 of all the silver extracted in America by the Spaniards ended in China). I'm sure they would have made good bussiness in Peru and Mexico, as well as in East Africa, would they have been more interested in trade.

Yet Chinese culture, like Ancient Roman and Medieval European culture, despised merchants. 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Mixcoatl View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 4581
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 08:40
Zheng He was a muslim, but the country he was working for was not muslim. It would have been a bit weird if a Confucianist emperor would let its generals/admirals convert a conquered population to islam.

Besides, the 1421 thesis is far from proven. The Chinese most definately reached Africa and Australia, but there hasn't been convincing evidence for them reaching America.
"Some argue that atheism partly stems from a failure to fairly and judiciously consider the facts"
"Atheists deny the existence of Satan, while simultaneously doing his work."

- Conservapedia
Back to Top
Voyager View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voyager Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 11:12
Originally posted by ITZOCELOTL ITZOCELOTL wrote:

 and would the Chinese have  commited genocide, rape, destruction of culture, destruction of cities, destruction of  religion, stealing of gold and wealth, and pure chaotic death as the Spaniards did?

Do you think that is a privilege of the Spanish? Do you think that America by the time of the arrival of the Europeans was a peaceful Paradise? Well, sorry to disapoint you, but Amerindians were extremely violent.  Did you know that the Spanish were helped by many Amerindians that hated their neighbours?

Quote Also Chinese and Japanese  culture was similar to Mexican culture  for example the use of jade, warrior schools, spicy foods, religion, governement  and philosophy.

That is false. Both cultures are completely different from each other. You are just pointing forms putting aside the content. For example, Aztec religion demanded sacrifices of human blood, something that did not happen in China. Actually, I think the Chinese would be as appaled as the Spanish with many of the aspects of Amerindian cultures.

Quote when Columbus discovered America in 1492, he was 72 years too late.And so were other explorers, such as Cook, Magellan and Da Gama, whose heroic voyages took them to Australia, South America and India. Instead, according to Gavin Menzies, a former submarine commanding officer who has spent 14 years charting the movements of a Chinese expeditionary fleet between 1421 and 1423, the eunuch admiral, Zheng He, was there first.

Menzies theory is complete and utter crap.

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

The Chinese most definately reached Africa and Australia

The Chinese had never reached Australia.

 

Finally, all this talk about the Chinese having reached the Americas before the Europeans is just wishful thinking with the objective of legitimating China's "peaceful rising" across the globe.



Edited by Voyager
Back to Top
Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 2123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 15:01


   What if Martians would invade Mesoamerica.
   Guys, get the facts straight. Reasson why Cortes and he's cousin Pizarro were sucessful in conquering Mexico and Peru were results of the real politik in Mesoamerica.

Cortes found to Aguilar, a spaniard survivor of a shipwreck. Aguilar learned to speak Mayan. Then Cortes got as a tribute to Malinantzin ( La Malinche ) that learned the spanish from Aguilar due she was able to speak Mayan and Nahuatl.

Without the ability to communicate and learn from the aztec tributarian towns their situation and anger towards the mexicas, Cortez would not being able to capitalize this political advantage and forge alliances that finally driven the spaniard victory towards the aztec empire.

How would the chinese would be able to comminucate with the mesomaericans ?

   The real factors for the aztec defeat was the anger of the people under their dominion catalyzed by the spaniards.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Status: Offline
Points: 966
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 16:30

Good point,

Diaz says Cortes didn't stumble on Aguilar by accident, he guessed there would be some shipwrecked Spanish sailors somewhere and went looking for them.

Any other people wouldn't have had that luxury unless it was a later expedition several years after many predecessors. The Vikings to all accounts had this problem when they gave milk to a lactose intolerant people and couldn't explain to them they weren't trying to poison them when they got sick. so got attacked.

Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Mixcoatl View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 4581
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 17:04
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Diaz says Cortes didn't stumble on Aguilar by accident, he guessed there would be some shipwrecked Spanish sailors somewhere and went looking for them.

Somewhat off topic, but does anybody know the story of the other survivor of the shipwreck, Gonzalo de Guerrero? His story is even more exciting than Aguilar's one, one of the most remarkable stories of the Spanish conquest of the Americas.

Guerrero was captured by the Maya and brought to a Maya city. He became a Mayan warrior and quickly adapted to Maya culture. He married Ixchel Cam, a Mayan woman, who bore him a son. This child (and not Martín Cortés, as is often said) was the first mestizo of Mexico. When Cortés arrived in 1519 Guerrero did not want to be rescued any more.
In the 1530 he rose to the rank of military governor, and made some successes in fighting against the Spanish conquistadores of Francisco Montejo. In 1536 he died in a battle agains his former countrymen.
"Some argue that atheism partly stems from a failure to fairly and judiciously consider the facts"
"Atheists deny the existence of Satan, while simultaneously doing his work."

- Conservapedia
Back to Top
Yum Kaax Pakal View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yum Kaax Pakal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 18:08

Continuing this little parenthesis of Mixcoatl. Gonzalo Guerrero was captured by the mayan cacicazgo of NachanKan with Aguilar. Then both were gifted to the king of the cacicazgo of Chactemal, nowadays Chetumal, Quintana Roo (luckly, were i come from), and married a mayan princess in order to save his life...he learned mayan and tought war strategies to the mayan warriors... It is said that when Cortes reached Chactemal and rescued Aguilar, Gonzalo called himself a mayan, not a spaniard. Gonzalo is known as the "father of mestizaje" in my town (Chetumal) and he has an estatue in the entrance of the city.

 end of the parenthesis....

¡¡TONEYO, TOTAHUCA MEXICA!!
Back to Top
flyingzone View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Dec-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2635
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 18:09

Originally posted by Voyager Voyager wrote:

The Chinese had never reached Australia.

There's actually some evidence that the Chinese had "discovered" Australia as early as early 14th century.

http://www.treasureenterprises.com/Additional%20Pages/archae ology_in_australia.htm 

"It appears the Chinese drew their first official map of Australia in 1320 AD. It was referred to as the Chu Ssu Pen map. It can only be assumed that the Chinese without doubt, had the capabilities of sailing regularly to Australia, mapping and exploring its coastal and nearby inland areas.

In the time between c. 1400 ¨C 1500 AD, the Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, and French came exploring the coastlines of Australia. There are numerous wonderful maps of antiquity in institutions that show evidence of their great explorative journeys. Some of these include (a) The De Noha Map of 1414 (b) The Genovese World Map of 1451 (c) The Toscanelli Map of 1474.

It is believed that a porcelain map showing a reasonable accurate outline of Australia is supposed to have been presented to the Chinese emperor, Ying Tsung in 1477, suggesting that the continent had been circumnavigated by Chinese seamen before that date.

In 1542, the Dutchman, Cornelius Wytfliet published a map showing roughly the East and West coast and the Gulf of Carpentaria.

A map which is held in the Vatican Library, Italy, shows Jesuit Fr. Ricci's North Queensland map which formed part of his world map drawn in Peking, China in 1602."

Other interesting about the connection of ancient China with Australia:

"It appears ancient mariners from China had a long and perhaps closer relationship with the great south land than previously thought. For instance, ancient Chinese writings record two Australian solar eclipses in 592 BC and 553 BC. "

"A carved stone statue (now known as the famous Gympie 'Ape Idol') was unearthed when a field was being ploughed (c. 1966) near the site of the 'Gympie Pyramid'. Two theories is that (a) It could be in fact a replica of the Egyptian god Thoth ¨C the God of Wisdom and Inventor of the Arts of Writing which could be at least 3000 years old and was made from local ironstone. Or (b) It could be one of the missing sacrificial statues for the Chinese God of Longevity buried in the great south land by Cheng Ho during his voyage of 1432(?).This near metre high artefact is currently displayed in a glass case at the Gympie District Historical and Gold Mining Museum. "

"In 1980, a woman unearthed a carved stone head of the Chinese Goddess Shao Lin ¨C the Protectress of Mariners near Milton, New South Wales. This is on display at Rex Gilroy's Museum in Tamworth, New South Wales. "

"Located on the Hawkesbury River in New South Wales found in recent years was another carved stone statue similar to the one found near the 'Gympie Pyramid'. Could this have been the third and final statue from the Chinese Emperor left behind by Cheng Ho?"

Originally posted by Voyager Voyager wrote:

Menzies theory is complete and utter crap.

I agree. But at the same time he did present some interesting "facts" there're rather difficult to explain. E.g.

http://www.1421.tv/gallery.asp?Section=Metal+artefacts

Chinese cast brass artefact found in Northwestern Australia

This brass artefact was found off the northern Australian coast by Peter Weaver and his father 23 years ago. It was found with Chinese pottery and an opium pipe. Can anyone shed any light on its origin?

Back to Top
ITZOCELOTL View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 22-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 84
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 18:23
Tlazohcamati guys
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
   -Emiliano Zapata-    
Back to Top
Voyager View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voyager Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 05:19
Originally posted by flyingzone flyingzone wrote:

It appears the Chinese drew rst official map of Australia in 1320 AD. It was referred to as the Chu Ssu Pen map. It can only be assumed that the Chinese without doubt, had the capabilities of sailing regularly to Australia, mapping and exploring its coastal and nearby inland areas.

It appears? Either it is or it is not. Besides, Australia is beyond the Indonesia islands. What is "Australia" is more likely one of those islands. Nobody is denying that the Chinese did not have the capability of reaching Australia. The problem is that Australia was not integrated in the Asian commercial system and as such it was not frequented by Asians.

Quote In the time between c. 1400 ¨C 1500 AD, the Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, and French came exploring the coastlines of Australia. There are numerous wonderful maps of antiquity in institutions that show evidence of their great explorative journeys. Some of these include (a) The De Noha Map of 1414 (b) The Genovese World Map of 1451 (c) The Toscanelli Map of 1474.

You are using European maps to prove that the Chinese reached Australia? Don't you think that is ridiculous? Besides European 15th century maps were full of imaginary islands.

Quote It is believed that a porcelain map showing a reasonable accurate outline of Australia is supposed to have been presented to the Chinese emperor, Ying Tsung in 1477, suggesting that the continent had been circumnavigated by Chinese seamen before that date.

It is believed... Suggesting... These words are not synonims of hard evidence.

Quote In 1542, the Dutchman, Cornelius Wytfliet published a map showing roughly the East and West coast and the Gulf of Carpentaria.

A map which is held in the Vatican Library, Italy, shows Jesuit Fr. Ricci's North Queensland map which formed part of his world map drawn in Peking, China in 1602.

That is the result of Portuguese explorations in Australia.

Quote It appears ancient mariners from China had a long and perhaps closer relationship with the great south land than previously thought. For instance, ancient Chinese writings record two Australian solar eclipses in 592 BC and 553 BC.

Not even worth commenting.

As for the artefacts you mention (assuming they are Chinese) they could have been brought by Europeans or they could have been put there by someone wanting to "prove" that the Chinese were there first. Similar examples have also happened in America with artefacts from Phoenicians and other peoples from the Antiquity. I think that only artefacts found in conditions considered acceptable by archeologists are the only ones that can be valid. Those you mention don't fit here.

Back to Top
ITZOCELOTL View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 22-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 84
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 22:40
Voyager did I say America was a peacful paradise? No! so stop trying to be so hard man!

Edited by ITZOCELOTL
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
   -Emiliano Zapata-    
Back to Top
Ometeoist Monk View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 18-Feb-2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ometeoist Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 22:50

Yea Itzocelotl didnt say that the Mexicans, Mayans, Incas , Lakotas ect were peacful. He didnt say AMercia was some paradise of peace and endless nirvana and harmony!

so yea stop trying to be so hard!

"Life is like a snake, a snake crawling out of its own dead skin like a dream"
"ancient Mexican saying"
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 16:20
Zheng He was a really amazing explorer, and there is some evidence that he - or possibly another Chinese explorer - did at least sight the coast of Australia. However, the whole theory behind his discovery of North America is bunk. It's based on some awfully crappy evidence. The author of that book claims he found the wrecks of junks in California but won't say where, says he found some anchor stones from Chinese ships and says they were radiocarbon dated (lol, you can't radiocarbon date a rock!) etc etc. Shouldn't take away from Zheng He's magnificent accomplishments though. His explorations were impressive enough without this flight of fantasy.

It's certainly possible groups from outside the Americas landed there, certainly the Vikings did for one, and possibly the Polynesians may have had some kind of sporadic contact (though there's no evidence for it). It's even possible that there was a stray ship or two which somehow survived a storm to wash up on beaches somewhere in the Americas, but there's no good evidence of them having altered the evolution of technology or belief in the Americas in any appreciable way. One other possibility is that, not long before Columbus' expedition, the fishing grounds of the Grand Banks off Newfoundland may have been known to some Europeans and kept secret by fishing cartels - this is suggested by certain facts surrounding John Cabot, but far from certain.
Back to Top
flyingzone View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Dec-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2635
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 21:50

This post is NOT about Menzies's theory (which, I think, does not have much credibility). I just want to share with you some information I came across. I don't know how credible the information is, but it's very interesting.

In 1982, Prof Wei Chu-Hsien published a book called China and America -Volume One in which he documented ancient China's contacts with America . Some of his information was based on ancient Chinese classics. Some was based on his contact with Prof Lau Tun-li of SUNY who provided information on American Indian's heritage such as i) praying for rain, ii) ancestral stone worshipping, and iii) Chinese inscriptions found in America. 

Wei Chu-Hsien spent considerable time reading into ancient classics and excavated interesting points covering the American continents:

1. Chen Shou's San Guo Zhi recorded two statelets to the southeast of Japan, i.e., Luo-guo (naked body) statelet and Heichi-guo (black teeth) statelet, which could be reached by travelling for one year on boat. Some Japanese historians speculated that the two statelets to the southeast of Japan must have been located in Central or South Americas.

2. Yao Silian's Liang Shu (History of Southern Liang Dynasty)

  • mentioned that the two statelets of Luo-guo and Heichi-guo were 4,000 Chinese li distance to the southeast of Japan or 1-year sea journey by boat
  • recorded an island 10,000 li to the southwest of Japan where people, of black body and white eyes, were said to have delicious meat on their body; it said that travellers would shoot to kill those islanders for eating them.
  • To the northeast of Japan, Liang Shu recorded a Wen-shen-guo (tattoo) statelet that was located 7,000 Chinese li distance away from Japan; 5000 li to the east of Wen-shen-guo would be Da-han-guo statelet - Wen-shen-guo would be somewhere near Hokkaido, while Da-han-guo statelet would be likely in Bering Straits, Aleutian Islands & Alaska
  • Liang Shu was noted for its record of Fu-sang Statelet to the east. The word 'fusang' would later be used by Chinese for designating Japan in poems; Wei Chu-Hsien validated a separate identity of Fusang from Japan by citing ancient records in regards to the usage of iron in Japan but not in Fusang. The more exact mapping would be to measure distance between statelets in between: a Wen-shen-guo (tattoo) statelet (near Hokkaido?) was located 7,000 Chinese li distance to the northeast of Japan; 5000 li to the east of Wen-shen-guo would be Da-han-guo statelet (near Bering Straits, Aleutian Islands & Alaska?). Fu-Sang (Fusang) Statelet was located 20,000 Chinese li distance to the east of Da-han-guo, somewhere near British Columbia or Oregon. Here, we could see an apparent linkage from China, to Korea, to Japan, to "tattoo body" country, to "Great Han" country, and to Fu-sang.

                                                            "Great Han" -------------- Fu-sang
                                                            / country
                                                           /
                                           /"tattoo body" 
                                          /   country
                                         /
                                        /
        China   ----  Korea  ---- Japan
  • Popular belief is that Fusang was located in today's Mexico. Liang Shu stated that during the first year of the Yongyuan Era of Southern Qi Dynasty, i.e., AD 499, a monk by the name of Hui-shen (Huishen or Hui Shen) arrived at Jingzhou prefecture from the Fu-Sang (Fusang) Statelet. Hui-shen claimed that:
  • Fu-Sang (Fusang) was to the east of China; that it was located 20,000 li distance from Da-han-guo statelet; that it was a land full of Fu-Sang (Fusang) wood (speculated to be North American corn by Chinese or cactus-like agave by Americans); that Fu-Sang (Fusang) people had log cabins but no cities;
  • Hui-shen also stated that over 1000 li distance to the east of Fusang would be a country called N¨¹-guo (women statelet). N¨¹-guo was speculated to be the Amazon statelet in South America. N¨¹-guo women were said to have lighter skin, hairy body, and long hair that dangled to the floor. 

 Prof Wei Chu-Hisen's Expositions On Symbols & Characters
 
1) Nude goddess excavated by Corde de Gugui on Mt Truillo in northern Peru in 1865

  • Peru had been the place where most of the potteries, and jade / silver articles carrying Chinese characters had been located. Most notable would be a silver artifact of a nude goddess excavated by Corde de Gugui on Mt Truillo in northern Peru in 1865. Wei Chu-Hsien pointed that the sunflower goddess, sitting on a turtle with snake winding arount it, had two plates in her hands, with Chinese characters 'wu-dang shan' or Mt Wudang-shan inscribed and that in Wudang area of China's northern Hubei Prov, the snake-turtle coupling was treated as a divine spirit called 'xuan-wu' during China's south-north dynasty time period.

Ancient classics Wu-zi (military strategist Wu Qi of Warring State time period) listed 'xuan-wu' together with three other divine spirits of 'qing long' (green dragon which was speculated to be sea-horse by Wei), 'bai hu' (white tiger which used to exist in China 2000 years ago but now available in India only), and 'zhu que' (red bird).
 
Artifacts of four divine spirits were also found on stone coffins excavated in Korea and Manchuria. Wei Chu-Hsien pointed out that the southside spirit of red-bird and northside spirit of snake-turtle coupling were both imports since snakes and turtles rarely existed in deep north of China. [Wei Chu-Hsien stated that Shang Chinese, on basis of oracle words feng (phoenix people) lu (surrender) bai (hundred), had at one time received hundreds of turtles from ancient Indonesians and Malasians as tributaries and later used the turtle shell for incribing oracle characters.] Wei Chu-Hsien cited numerous records stating that 'xuan-wu' was not a spirit born in China, but an import. Wei Chu-Hsien came to a natural conclusion that ancient Chinese, more than 2500-3700 years ago, had contacts with Central America's tropical tribesmen who adored snake-turtle as a spirit
 
2) Chinese characters of a name inscribed on a high mountain in Peru. Wei Chu-Hsien received, via HK consul Marto F. Rbatde Azva, pictures taken by Prof Daniel Ruzo of inscriptions on Marcahuasi Plateau which was about 3800-4000 meters above sea level. Wei Chu-Hsien recognized 6 characters and a picture of a man with three eyes. The 6 characters would be 'Mu (wood, a surname) Wu-Ben (given name, meaning martial principle), Sui (hence) Wei (made into) Ji (a record)'. The picture of thee eye man was speculated by Wei Chu-Hsien to have relation to the legendary one-arm and three-eye Qigong-guo statelet as recorded in Shan Hai Jing. Wei Chu-Hsien cited the claim of Guo Pu of Jinn Dynasty that Qigong-guo people had visited first Shang Dynasty overlord in 18th century BC. Later legendary novel Feng Shen Bang wrote about three eye god. Wei Chu-Hsien, by examing the font of the characters, concluded that someone called Mu Wuben visited Peru in the 1st century AD in search of the legendary Qigong-guo and left his name on the high mountain
 
3) 23 Chinese characters of 'ya' inscribed on a pottery excavated in Mexico. Wei Chu-Hsien explained that the Mexico pottery had 23 'ya' characters inscribed because the base of the pottery was too small to fill up another two characters to make a total of 25 which would be symbolic of twenty-five clans of Huangdi the Yellow Lord. Wei Chu-Hsien cited Jinn Yu section of ancient classics Guo Yu to translate the original meaning of 'ya' as lineage, something to mean that Huangdi's 25 sons had established their independent clans. As to the reason that the pottery was excavated in Mexico, Wei Chu-Hsien cited the ancient dynastic transition of Shang-Zhou as the possible cause
Wei Chu-Hsien rephrased the Shang-Zhou story as follows: Last Shang Lord King Zhouwang campaigned against 'Ren-fang-guo' statelet on Shandong Peninsula. After defeating Ren-fang-guo, Zhouwang led a few soldiers back to the capital of Chaoge for lunar new year celebration. Upon hearing of Zhouwang's return with a light force, Zhou Lord Wuwang marched towards Shang capital within six days and nights and encountered Zhouwang at the outskirts of Muye where Zhou army defeated Shang's drunken soldiers. Shang King Zhouwang committed suicide. Zhou Lord Wuwang made Shang Prince Lufu inherit the Shang heritage and then went back to the west. After Wuwang died, Zhou Duke Zhougong assumed the post of a regent for Zhou King Chengwang. In old Shang capital area, Shang Prince Lufu died. Shang Prince Lufu's son, Prince Wugeng, conspired with the brothers of Zhou Wuwang in rebelling against Zhou Regent Zhougong. Zhougong defeated the rebellion and furthermore campaigned against Shang remnants who were left by Shang Lord Zhouwang on Shandong Peninsula's Ren-fang-guo statelet. Shang remnants hence fled towards two directions, one branch to Taiwan Island and the other branch to North America via the Bering Straits. Those Shang people who arrived in North America stationed two chieftans on the east and west sides of the Bering Straits and conferred onto the two chieftans the titles of east-sea and north-sea kings. The east-sea and north-sea kings would become the gods in revised book Shan Hai Jing.

 
4) The Chinese character of 'fan' (sail or wind) inscribed on a pottery excavated in Lima, Peru 

http://www.uglychinese.org/ancient_america.htm

Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 5952
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2006 at 03:31
Regarding medival European maps and Australia, it was customary to have a Terra Incognita Australis (Unkniown Southern Land) on a map, more to fit how views of the Earth were, rather than out of any definitive knowledge of there being anything there.
Since Greek times it was assumed that all Oceans are surrounded by land (technicly true to a degree), indeed the first European to put a TIC on a map was Ptolemy, to stuck it there to close off the Indian ocean that Greek merchants at the time were learning more and more about. For later medival European map makers Ptolemy was an importany reference point when charting areas where there was no newer knowledge.
Another reason was the belief that there had to be a sort of counterweight continent. This was a slightly more unfounded. So rather than having knowedlge of Australia, its existence was predicted by some partly true and somewhat unfounded assumptions.
Ultimatly however, Australia was not the TIC they imagined, Antartica was.

The Portugese/Dutch traders/explorers of the 1500/1600s learned of Australia from the Indonesians, they even give them the credit for that (even if it was to be later downplayed by some historians), as well as each other (the French learned of it from the Portugese AFAIK).
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 8>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.