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Forum LockedThe most fierce tribe in N. America

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    Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 18:37
This book on the Commanche, by a Finnlander no less, has received very good reviews. I have not read it yet, but it is on the way.

http://www.amazon.com/Comanche-Empire-Lamar-Western-History/dp/0300151179/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245173720&sr=1-1



Edited by lirelou - 16-Jun-2009 at 18:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 18:33
Pinguino, you've got the wrong mistress. Dona Marina, aka la Malinche, was not Moctezuma's daughter. Notice that two of his mistresses were Moctezuma II's daughters.

From:  http://www.answers.com/topic/hern-n-cort-s

Natural children of Hernán Cortés:

  • don Martín Cortés, son of doña Marina (La Malinche), called the First Mestizo; about him was written The New World of Martín Cortés; married doña Bernaldina de Porras and had two children:
    • doña Ana Cortés
    • don Fernando Cortés, Principal Judge of Veracruz. Descendants of this line are alive today in Mexico.
  • Martín - the legitimate son of Cortés and Catalina Juárez Marcaida
  • don Luis, son of doña Antonia Hermosillo
  • doña Catalina Pizarro, daughter of his relative doña Leonor Pizarro
  • doña Leonor, daughter of doña Isabel de Moctezuma, the oldest legitimate daughter of Moctezuma II Xocoyotzin
  • doña María Cortés de Moctezuma, married to don Juan de Tolosa, a miner, daughter of Mexica (Aztec) princess Tecuichpotzin Xocoyotzin, born in Tenochtitlan on July 11, 1510 and died on July 9, 1550, daughter of Moctezuma II Xocoyotzin and wife doña María Miahuaxuchitl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 17:10
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Penguin, face it! The Aztec's surrendered! When you quit fighting, and accept the invader;s terms, it's called surrender.
 
They were exterminated in the siege of Tenochtitlan. I wonder how many real Aztecs survived, but at least weren't many warriors left. And, of course, Germans also surrender in WW II when they didn't have more people to be send to the war.
 
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

When your daughter adopts the Spanish religion, and is baptized Susana, and becomes the mistress of your conqueror (Cortes), that is defeat! The fact that there are still Mexica living in what was Tenochtitlan is proof that they were intelligent enough to know that they were beaten. 
 
It was not called Susana but Doña Marina, and she addopted Spanish ways simply because they treat her better than Mayans! She was sold into slavery by her own mother. It those antecedents, nobody would call "Malinche" a "traitor".
 
But that has nothing to do with the topic. Europeans (all of them) simply robbed the Americas from the Amerindians. That the way we should call all those adventurers, from Columbus and everybody else. When we finally do so, we will see the "discovery" of the Americas in the real perspective.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 02:47
Penguin, face it! The Aztec's surrendered! When you quit fighting, and accept the invader;s terms, it's called surrender. When your daughter adopts the Spanish religion, and is baptized Susana, and becomes the mistress of your conqueror (Cortes), that is defeat! The fact that there are still Mexica living in what was Tenochtitlan is proof that they were intelligent enough to know that they were beaten. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 01:41
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy The Canadian Guy wrote:

BTW: for those who consider the Blackfoot nation as Blackfeet, plz don't state them as Blackfeet, that is a bit racist and they find that insulting. Blackfoot is that nations name. Just for further consideration. I will get the staff on any member for racisim.Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 01:27

One group of Native Americans that also showed a good fighting ability were the Susquehannoks (also refered to as Minkess, Conestoga or Seruskwack). This people who were not especially many were among other things the protectors of the Swedish enterprise New Sweden.

They came to dominate the neighbouring Lenapes and dictate the terms of the fur trade between the Swedish colonists and the inland. They were in conflict with the Iroquois and they also fought the English. On top of that they also conflicted with the Dutch at some occassion.

At some points they really got the mighty Iroqoois confederacy on it´s knees but their resources weren´t enough for a final victory.

The Susquehannoks lent some help from Swedish soldiers (of whom some where intermarried among them) to fortify their city and they even used cannons in their defence.

As the time went by their low numbers and the multitude of their enemies finally weakend them and in the end they split up and some were assimilated in other tribes, some banded up with other groups and went westward, where they continued fighting the British and others, while some stayed in the vicinity of their old homeland. The last of the latter group (just about 20 persons), except two, were murdered by militiamen (the Paxton boys) in 1763.

 
It is interesting to notice that the only remnant we have of the language of the Susquehannoks is a vocabulary of about 100 words (Vocabula Mahakuassica) compiled by the Swedish Lutheran priest Johan Campanius in the 17th century.
 
See also this tread:
 
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 16-Jun-2009 at 02:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 14:44
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy The Canadian Guy wrote:

Originally posted by Anishnabe Anishnabe wrote:

The answer to this question is an easy one. the most fierce tribe in
N.america was the not the lakota(dakota), the huron or the mighty six nations (Mohawk, seneca,onondaga,onieda,cayuga, tuscarora), but the only tribe to beat them all.  Although most of the battles the anishnabe fought in were from a defensive standpoint they were able to push the six nations land out of central and southern Ontario to were they are today in upstate new york. As well as push the lakota out of the some parts of minnesota. the ojibway didnt go looking for trouble but if other tribes started to encroch on there lands they were more then able to push them all back. 
  So, your Anish as well eh? It is good to find other Anish in the internet community. I was born in Garden River. We Ojibwa were considered a superpower above Mexico by the whites at somepoint in time. 
 
BTW: for those who consider the Blackfoot nation as Blackfeet, plz don't state them as Blackfeet, that is a bit racist and they find that insulting. Blackfoot is that nations name. Just for further consideration. I will get the staff on any member for racisim.Wink
Oh for God's sake. Now we are going to quibble over the singular or plural of "foot" being racist??? I give up. The link I pasted here says FEET, FEET, it is for geneaology. Go report them then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 13:24
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

I didn't say they surrendered. I just said they fell swiftly.

As I said. Your argument is false. Don't match historical events.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 07:44
Originally posted by Anishnabe Anishnabe wrote:

The answer to this question is an easy one. the most fierce tribe in
N.america was the not the lakota(dakota), the huron or the mighty six nations (Mohawk, seneca,onondaga,onieda,cayuga, tuscarora), but the only tribe to beat them all.  Although most of the battles the anishnabe fought in were from a defensive standpoint they were able to push the six nations land out of central and southern Ontario to were they are today in upstate new york. As well as push the lakota out of the some parts of minnesota. the ojibway didnt go looking for trouble but if other tribes started to encroch on there lands they were more then able to push them all back. 
  So, your Anish as well eh? It is good to find other Anish in the internet community. I was born in Garden River. We Ojibwa were considered a superpower above Mexico by the whites at somepoint in time. 
 
BTW: for those who consider the Blackfoot nation as Blackfeet, plz don't state them as Blackfeet, that is a bit racist and they find that insulting. Blackfoot is that nations name. Just for further consideration. I will get the staff on any member for racisim.Wink


Edited by The Canadian Guy - 26-May-2009 at 07:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 07:44

I didn't say they surrendered. I just said they fell swiftly.

The Blackfoot were a fierce group, but weren't able to build an empire and compete as an equal with colonial powers at any point - the Iroqouis did this from the time of contact until just before the American Revolution (which tore them apart, internally).



Edited by edgewaters - 26-May-2009 at 07:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 04:04
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

I can't go with the Aztecs or the Maya; the Aztecs fell swiftly to very early European firepower and machinations, where more northerly tribes easily resisted initial attacks, some lasting a century or more in constant warfare with Europeans.
 
There is a mistake, here. The Aztecs didn't surrender but were crashed in a major disaster that only can be compare to the bombings of Germany or the Nukes in Japan. The Aztecs simply didn't have more resources to resist, and died fighting against superior forces of Spaniards and every single native enemies they had.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2009 at 22:15
I missed this thread. here is a link for blackfeet.
 
It sounds like they controlled a very wide area and talks about how they kept their southern neighbours under control also. I had a friend who was Blackfeet, and actively involved in the reservation, traditions etc. He told me that the people used to smear their body in excrement, dangle cut off ears on necklaces, basic scare tactics. It's hard to say looking back who was most fierce, but this guy was an ex Ranger and pretty scary. He'd killed a lot of people in covert operations and seemed pretty suited to it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 17:29
I can't go with the Aztecs or the Maya; the Aztecs fell swiftly to very early European firepower and machinations, where more northerly tribes easily resisted initial attacks, some lasting a century or more in constant warfare with Europeans.

I can't go with any of the Plains tribes. They had a brief moment where they were "ferocious" because of a lucky combination of newer firearms, horses, and a geography suited to those things, but it was a brief period.

My vote goes with the Iroquois - they were dominating their neighbours and building an empire at the time the Europeans showed up, and not only did they survive that arrival, they turned it to their advantage and accelerated their conquests. They participated in numerous wars with European powers, and in the end were never really conquered but torn apart by internal disagreements over which power to support. By far this group was present on more of the great battlefields of North American history and made a much greater impact in war, across the span of centuries, than any other single native entity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cuauhtemoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 02:39
There is no question that the Native American Empires have to be considered as among the most fierce tribes. How can their achievements be disregarded? To ignore the empires of the Mexica and the Mayas would be absurd on the very face of this question! It would be like denying that Roman soldiers conquered much of their known world and were not among the greatest warriors of the old world, simply because they fell to invasions by germanic tribes in 476 A.D. Are we simply talking about resistence to Europeans as a the standard? The criteria must include the accomplishments they achieved prior to European invasion! One could ask that question about resistence to the European invasion, however that is entirely a different question! Who would deny the heroic defence and defiance of the Aztec culture once they realized that Cortez was not a returning god! What about the Maya resistence until 1697 and the fall of Tayasal! Clearly these nations must be considered as the fiercest. I wish to consider what tribe would be the fiercest in the continental United States and respond to that later. However many responses seem to be basing there responses to resistence to European invasion. I have studied extensively about the Souix, Commanches, Iroqois, Apaches and Modocs? All worthy of consideration if we are talking about fighting European incursion? What about Chief Joseph and the Nez Pierce in spite of their small numbers? They defeated every American army until they were forced to surrender, after miscalculating the distance of those pursuing them, just 40 miles from their destination in Canada? What about the Seminole? Tecumseh and the Shawnee? Is there enough information about tribes prior to European incursion? What about victories by eastern woodland tribes that killed many more then Souix did when attacked by Custer? I wish to consider this before I respond. Any websites others might suggest to me would be appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 20:46
Originally posted by RomiosArktos RomiosArktos wrote:



Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

I read somewhere that their language is related to the Turkic language but I have no source on that.


Maybe distantly related to the Ural-Altaic languages(possibly closer to
Mongol language) since most of the natives migrated from eastern parts
of what is now Russia to Alaska.When exactly happened this?Difficult to
know since there is no written evidence.


With the Kennewick man the theories are changing about who were the first Americans. Facial rescontructions and the bone structure indicates he was not MOngoloid like the Native Americans are suppose to be. He might be related to the Ainu of Japan but this is still speculation. Interestingly the Indians on the east coast were generally more fair skinned, depending on the tribe. Remember Indian or Native American are usually acceptable to them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 16:14
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

I read somewhere that their language is related to the Turkic language but I have no source on that.



Maybe distantly related to the Ural-Altaic languages(possibly closer to Mongol language) since most of the natives migrated from eastern parts of what is now Russia to Alaska.When exactly happened this?Difficult to know since there is no written evidence.

PS:I am afraid i used an inappropriate term,the word natives should be replaced by Native Americans.I apologise for this.


Edited by RomiosArktos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 15:57
From what I have read the Apaches were migrating from the north the same time that the Spanish were colonizing the areas we call New Mexico and Arizona.
I am not completely sure but the Apaches were a war-like tribe and it was probably a clash of cultures. I read somewhere that their language is related to the Turkic language but I have no source on that.
I sure it also offered a good chance for them to raid, steal horses, women, goods, and fight.
It was also probably a clash over territory as well but why they hated the Mexicans so much I really am not sure what started it but they learned to dislike the Americans later even more.
The Blackfeet of Montana were also a tribe that was feared by both other Native American tribes and the pioneers. The Flathead (Salish tribe) moved to the other side of the Rocky Mountains to get away from the Blackfeet. The Flathead were great warriors but they were very peaceful. The area I live in was Salish territory- Spokan-e and Couer d' Alene tribes. I was talking to someone from the Spokane tribe- interesting culture and great people.

I think the word Indian is not appropriate to use Romios.Better Native Americans.

We have a lot of reservations nearby and most Indians or Native American don't mind either, that I have talked to. But here they want to be called Salish indians after their ethnic groups or tribe.
Now Injun would be an insult!!!

Edited by eaglecap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 15:49

I think the word Indian is not appropriate to use Romios.Better Native Americans.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 15:44
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:



I read one sad story about how they captured a wagon train with American and Mexican men and woman. They let the Americans go and also the Mexican women but they tied the Mexican men to the spokes of the wheels and sadly set them on fire- horrible!!! This was before they realized what a threat the Americans really were to their culture.


Did the Mexicans hurt  them in the past?It seems that probably  something they had done pissed the natives off.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 13:40
Originally posted by RomiosArktos RomiosArktos wrote:


The way indians fought must have been really savage and fierce,at least
that was the impression given to me watching Michael Mann's '<span style="font-style: italic;">'The Last of the Mohicans''
</span>Were the Mohicans a tribe that really existed or is it fictional?<span style="font-style: italic;">
</spanspan style="font-style: italic;">
</span>


I am sure they were fierce but I would not take Hollywood too literal but do some research.
From what I understand the Apache would torture their enemies to death because it had something to do with their beliefs in reincarnation. By torturing the enemy their souls could not get rest. I tried to find something on this via the internet but nothing so far. I found this in a history book about the Apache and the fact is they did torture their enemies. I read one sad story about how they captured a wagon train with American and Mexican men and woman. They let the Americans go and also the Mexican women but they tied the Mexican men to the spokes of the wheels and sadly set them on fire- horrible!!! This was before they realized what a threat the Americans really were to their culture.
Of course, they are not longer like this but they were true warriors.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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