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Forum LockedLooking for Pre-Colombian Southern Californian His

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drgonzaga View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20-Jun-2009 at 21:39
The Numunuh might be of interest for many reasons...but use this site for useful links:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2009 at 19:49
Just finished chapter 1 of Pekka Hamalaianen's "Comanche Empire". It was definitely worth the price. Well founded history, and no polemical self-gratification. There are some issues with academic jargon, as noted in this review.  http://www.literaryreview.co.uk/mclynn_06_08.html

Definitely something that I would recommend to both Pinguino and Carcharodon. Believe the analysis of why the Commanche became what they did would interest a Chilean, if only to draw parallels and differences with the Mapuche, who got the horse earlier, but whose territory lacked the bison. I assume that "Dr G" has already read it.
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 22:45
Carcharodon insists:
 
"One can play with words if one like but it still was an (or rather many) invasion. But you maybe prefer words as incursions, infiltrations, replacements or just mean theft?"
 
As Poirot might inquire: Where are the little gray cells?
 
The facts are that in terms of the Franks and the Goths "emigration to" and "settlement in" is far more apt a description of how these peoples gained access to Rome. As a "Varangarian" you should grasp the distinction.Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 19:55
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

As for Carcharodon, no absolution there for his penchant to impose a term from military tactics upon far more complex situations. "Invasions" are ephemeral, hence utilization of this term, even with respect to the expansion of the Mongols, is but a foray through a plain full of buffalo chips! Even the terminology drawn by Romantic historians on the "Barbarian Invasions" of the Roman Empire is hogwash. Both the Franks and the Goths were long "Romanized" prior to the 5th century. So let us leave alone words that are but caricatures of historical processes and hold specific meaning in terms of the technical.
 
One can play with words if one like but it still was an (or rather many) invasion. But you maybe prefer words as incursions, infiltrations, replacements or just mean theft?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 17:54
Such silliness with words is sophomoric, not to say the equivalent of the juvenile "Nah, nah, nah sticks and stones..." It is understandable as to why the Pinguino remains too close to a subject so as to render a capable impassioned analysis since he fails to grasp the consequences of a rather facile statement: "Egyptians erased the memory of the bad Pharaons. The same will happen in this case here". No need to utter the caution of George Santayana as to the consequences of "erasing" memory.
 
As for Carcharodon, no absolution there for his penchant to impose a term from military tactics upon far more complex situations. "Invasions" are ephemeral, hence utilization of this term, even with respect to the expansion of the Mongols, is but a foray through a plain full of buffalo chips! Even the terminology drawn by Romantic historians on the "Barbarian Invasions" of the Roman Empire is hogwash. Both the Franks and the Goths were long "Romanized" prior to the 5th century. So let us leave alone words that are but caricatures of historical processes and hold specific meaning in terms of the technical.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 14:39
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

[
...That you remain at war with near contemporary events is clear from your reach for the "right adjectives", but then for every gorilla there was a countebalancing communist dog; yet, despite all of this colorful verbiage the fact remains that "the nature of the Chilean military as an institution is deeply rooted in Chile's tradition and history". And here a read of the full context of the above quoted passage is in order:
 
 
as well as an analysis of the near past in terms of "political science":
 
 
It is of historical interest that rather than employing the classic terminology of the "golpe de estado" (the Napoleonic coup d'etat), the Chilean military turned to early revolutionary Spain and the Grito de Riego, which coined the term Pronunciamiento Militar, whose intent was to shape government as a projection of the national will through the support of political forces and public opinion [no matter how hard one tries it is hard to escape the mind set of 19th century Liberalism within the Chilean military as an institution]. Such certainly brings forth a reason as to why the 1980 Constitution continued to haunt Chile.
 
An amplification through the earlier citation is in order:
 
 
The Pronunciamiento did not materialize out of thin air, however, and can be viewed as the formal response of the military as an institution to the call for the restoration of order made by the Chilean Chamber of Deputies on 22 August 1973 to the military ministers of the government to secure "la orden constitucional"!
 
To blame all on Pinochet is to turn a blind eye to the actual historical and social forces in tension within Chile and its institutions. Similarly, to call the advent of the European onto the Western Hemisphere, an invasion and an act of robbery, says nothing of the forces and institution at play nor can explain the true roots of American hemispheric identity. It may make some fell good but such verbiage carries nothing of relevance, specially if one wishes to understand the distinct differences in the societies that now constitute the Americas.
 
 
The "pronunciamiento"... (what a stupid word to describe it) was the work of a bunch of thugs supported by the right wing and also corrupted Nixon administration. They controlled the navy and the army, and from there they controlled the country.
 
It was very unfortunate for us that our military institutions became involved in such low affairs, and it has cost us three decades of cleaning to make them be just a bit as brilliant as they once were.
 
But we have it very clear. Those mafiosi that took power doesn't represent Chile not the armed forced. Even more, with time the shadows of the victions, like General Prat, will left in darkness the memory of those bloody idiots.
 
Egyptians erased the memory of the bad Pharaons. The same will happen in this case here.
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 14:33

Yes. We should rename the "Mongolian invasions" then as the "Mongolian touristic expeditions", and the "Barbarian invasions" as the "Barbarian foreign visitors"....

Weird.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 11:58
Whatever one want to call it, evaluation or judgement it was still an invasion from the Europeans into the lands of the Native Americans. If it was not an invasion then we must rename all other invasions in history to. Maybe Hitlers invasion of the Soviet was just an exploratory expedition?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 04:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

If you can't make moral judgments of the past, then why to judge Nazis and the hollocaust? Why to judge the Vietnam war? Hiroshima?
 
Nope. There you are absolutelly wrong. One of the tasks of history is preciselly to evaluate history. That's to judge it.
 
For instance, Chile already judged Pinochet and he was classified as a criminal, a robber and a cochrache. Perhaps the only thing that could save him is that he is also known to have been an idiot Confused. At his funeral, the son of one of his victim spit his coffin...
 
That's the way to do it.
 
In his day the majority of Europeans looked upon Napoleon much as the middle of the 20th century looked upon Hitler...but I would not advise that you rush into Les Invalides to spit on Napoleon's tomb! Besides, there is quite a difference between evaluating and judging, the latter is as transitory as life itself. Today's judgments may quickly become tomorrow's foolishness. The horror of Nazism lies not in its crimes, but on just how ordinary its perpetrators were. That is an evaluation and most certainly not a judgment for when one goes searching for monsters, one inevitably fails to look into a mirror.


Edited by drgonzaga - 17-Jun-2009 at 04:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 04:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Exactly.
While living under the military regime of Pinochet I discover how important the right adjectives are. You know, the gorillas didn't like to talk about a military coup (golpe). They preffered to call it a "military declaration"  (pronunciamiento militar).
Well, while they were in power, nobody spoke about "coups" in Chile. It was just a "declaration".
When democracy return and the criminals started to be sent to jail, people finally named it like it was: A COUP.
 
I know centuries could pass., but finally the world and the official historians will use the right terms to talk about the INVASION of the Americas and the Robbery of the lands.
 
That you remain at war with near contemporary events is clear from your reach for the "right adjectives", but then for every gorilla there was a countebalancing communist dog; yet, despite all of this colorful verbiage the fact remains that "the nature of the Chilean military as an institution is deeply rooted in Chile's tradition and history". And here a read of the full context of the above quoted passage is in order:
 
 
as well as an analysis of the near past in terms of "political science":
 
 
It is of historical interest that rather than employing the classic terminology of the "golpe de estado" (the Napoleonic coup d'etat), the Chilean military turned to early revolutionary Spain and the Grito de Riego, which coined the term Pronunciamiento Militar, whose intent was to shape government as a projection of the national will through the support of political forces and public opinion [no matter how hard one tries it is hard to escape the mind set of 19th century Liberalism within the Chilean military as an institution]. Such certainly brings forth a reason as to why the 1980 Constitution continued to haunt Chile.
 
An amplification through the earlier citation is in order:
 
 
The Pronunciamiento did not materialize out of thin air, however, and can be viewed as the formal response of the military as an institution to the call for the restoration of order made by the Chilean Chamber of Deputies on 22 August 1973 to the military ministers of the government to secure "la orden constitucional"!
 
To blame all on Pinochet is to turn a blind eye to the actual historical and social forces in tension within Chile and its institutions. Similarly, to call the advent of the European onto the Western Hemisphere, an invasion and an act of robbery, says nothing of the forces and institution at play nor can explain the true roots of American hemispheric identity. It may make some feel good but such verbiage carries nothing of relevance, specially if one wishes to understand the distinct differences in the societies that now constitute the Americas.
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 17-Jun-2009 at 17:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 03:26
If you can't make moral judgments of the past, then why to judge Nazis and the hollocaust? Why to judge the Vietnam war? Hiroshima?
 
Nope. There you are absolutelly wrong. One of the tasks of history is preciselly to evaluate history. That's to judge it.
 
For instance, Chile already judged Pinochet and he was classified as a criminal, a robber and a cochrache. Perhaps the only thing that could save him is that he is also known to have been an idiot Confused. At his funeral, the son of one of his victim spit his coffin...
 
That's the way to do it.


Edited by pinguin - 17-Jun-2009 at 03:30
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 03:20
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

... 
Anyway if you are so guilt struck about it, why not take a Mapuche out to dinner?
....
 
No matter most of my relatives and ancestors are of Iberian origins, I do have Mapuche friends, co-workers and students. Some of my in-laws are of that origin as well. Even more, I am studying Mapudungun. 
So, please, restrain yourself of using such a bad taste sense of humor. OK?
 
As I have tired of iterating, you can not make moral judgments on the past in terms of contemporary exigencies and understanding for in doing so one learns nothing of that past nor how and why the present is different. You can certainly affirm the negative aspects of the process within Modern Thought but the moral history of the past few generations, so entwined with relativism,  can hardly sustain such an effort without being heavily charged with hypocrisy.
 
I am sorry you did not grasp my ironic humour, but in response you provided one of the classic gotchas--"why some of my best friends are..."--, which should serve as a warning on the dangers of forcing the language of the present onto the past.
 
Since you raised the narrative on the immediate past of Chile, I will respond directly elsewhere as to why such is the classic example of what I am talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 03:04
Actually the good Doctor has a nice way with words and at least I find his humor spot on. Pinguino (new nic and I like that too) he is simply reminding us not to get too carried away with redundant assertions and that the occasional use of levity acts as a good counterbalance to those who need a refreshing dose of sanity.  My two cents. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 01:56
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

... 
Anyway if you are so guilt struck about, why not take a Mapuche out to dinner?
....
 
No matter most of my relatives and ancestors are of Iberian origins, I do have Mapuche friends, co-workers and students. Some of my in-laws are of that origin as well. Even more, I am studying Mapudungun.
 
So, please, restrain yourself of using such a bad taste sense of humor. OK?
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 01:48
Exactly.
 
While living under the military regime of Pinochet I discover how important the right adjectives are. You know, the gorillas didn't like to talk about a military coup (golpe). They preffered to call it a "military declaration"  (pronunciamiento militar).
Well, while they were in power, nobody spoke about "coups" in Chile. It was just a "declaration".
When democracy return and the criminals started to be sent to jail, people finally named it like it was: A COUP.
 
I know centuries could pass., but finally the world and the official historians will use the right terms to talk about the INVASION of the Americas and the Robbery of the lands.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 01:20
pinguin:
 
Balooney.
Europeans robbed the Indian lands.
 
It amazes me modern and decent people has so much trouble to recognize something so obvious.
 
Maybe they just don´t want to admit that some of their ancestors may have been among  those who stole other peoples land. But those who have such ancestors just have to learn to face up to it like many other peoples round the world have to face up to their history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 23:34
Give it a rest, Pinguin, or at least choose another adjective...it's not anyone's fault your "victims" failed to carry homeowner's insurance! Governments take other peoples lands all the time under the principles of eminent domain and best use.
 
Now where is a Mastodon going to find a good tort lawyer!?!
 
Angel
 
Anyway if you are so guilt struck about it, why not take a Mapuche out to dinner?
 
Sorry for the levity but all of your protests are irrelevant to the 16th century except when intertwined with and in terms of how the Europeans justified such actions in terms of their own morality. Hence my reference to Victoria.


Edited by drgonzaga - 17-Jun-2009 at 03:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 22:00

Balooney.

Europeans robbed the Indian lands.
 
It amazes me modern and decent people has so much trouble to recognize something so obvious.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 21:44
Hey folks, let us agree that this bit over "invaders and invasions" is so archaic as to be hoary and developing cobwebs, specially with respect to a rather novel concept moved forth under current International Law--the freedom to emigrate.Evil Smile
 
Is anyone familiar with the recent to do over "early points" on the Atlantic litoral and their similarity with those on the opposing European shore?
 
 
 
I know, I know, been there done that so on and so forth, but give us a break and let's cease all of this one-upsmanship over political correctness. Whatever may have bothered the conscience of the 16th century was absolved by Francisco de Victoria and The Rights of War.
 

Inasmuch as the seizure and occupation of those lands of the barbarians whom we style Indians can best, it seems, be defended under the law of war, I propose to supplement the foregoing discussion of the titles, some just and some unjust, which the Spaniards may allege for their hold on the lands in question, by a short discussion of the law of war, so as to give more completeness to that relectio. As, however, the other claims on my time will not allow me to deal with all the points which arise out of this topic, the scope which I can give my pen must be proportionate, not to the amplitude and dignity of the theme, but to the shortness of the time at my disposal. And so I will merely note the main propositions of this topic, together with very brief proofs, and will abstain from touching on the many doubtful matters which might otherwise be brought into this discussion. I will deal with four principal questions. First, Whether Christians may make war at all; secondly, Where does the authority to declare or wage war repose; thirdly, What may and ought to furnish causes of just war; fourthly, What and how extensive measures may be taken in a just war against the enemy?

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 20:23
lirelou  Pinguino, always the same old drum beat. The Europeans had as much right to immigrate to America as the pre-historic North Asians/Siberians did. Or, do you have a copy of "Adam's Will" containing a clause that says otherwise?
 
It was a rather different situation. When the first North Asians/Siberians arrived there were no other peoples living there. When the Europeans came to America there were already people living there, people who´s land the Europeans in different manners invaded, infiltrated, expropriated and in other ways gained access to.
 
 
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