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Forum LockedGotvandi (Dezfuli), Guti and Gothic

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 15:21
Iranians and some other nations call Germany "Alman" (Names of Germany: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany), as you read here, Kassite kings called themselves the king of Kassites, Padan, Alman and Guti, and you can read here the land of the Kassites, the Guti, Padan, and Alman lie on slopes of the eastern mountains (Zagros mountains).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 17:24
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berig
 
Berig was according to Jordanes the king who led the Goths on three ships from Scandza (Scandinavia) to Gothiscandza (the Vistula Basin).[1] They settled and then attacked the Rugians who lived on the shore and drove them away from their homes, subsequently winning a battle against the Vandals. According to Jordanes, this happened around 1490 B.C.[2]
 
Wasn't he the same Kassite Burig/Burigas?
 
 
A war god of the Iranian Kassites. He conquered Babylonia in the 15th century BCE. Also known as Burigas.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 31-May-2009 at 17:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 14:37
Would you please ignore the fictions and biased views and read what linguists say in that Wiki article about Proto-Germanic? You can read in "Linguistic definitions" section that linguistically Proto-Germanic is dated to the latter half of the first millennium BC
 
If in the third and second millennium bc the language left no records in Scandinavia and there is no way anybody can say it is related to the Finno-Urgic languages then it can be said about the relation with the Indo-European languages too, don't you think so?!
 
Quote An invasion doesn't have to be violent, it can simply be a migration, incoming, or spread of something to a certain place with the result usually being harmful to what is already at that place.
You are right, as you read in this page of the book of "Social transformations in archaeology" By Kristian Kristiansen and Michael Rowlands, at about 1,000 BC changes in burial rites and in status display indicate some social events in Scandinavia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 04:00
About Proto-Germanic and the corresponding archaeological record wikipedia says this:
Quote In one major[citation needed] theory of Andrev V Bell-Fialkov, Christopher Kaplonski, Wiliam B Mayer, Dean S Rugg, Rebeca W, Wendelken about Germanic origins, Indo-European speakers arrived on the plains of southern Sweden and Jutland, the center of the Urheimat or "original home" of the Germanic peoples, prior to the Nordic Bronze Age, which began about 4500 years ago. This is the only area where no pre-Germanic place names have been found.[3] The region was certainly populated before then; the lack of names must indicate an Indo-European settlement so ancient and dense that the previously assigned names were completely replaced. If archaeological horizons are at all indicative of shared language (not a straightforward assumption), the Indo-European speakers are to be identified with the much more widely ranged Cord-impressed ware or Battle-axe culture and possibly also with the preceding Funnel-necked beaker culture developing towards the end of the Neolithic culture of Western Europe.[4][5]
Proto-Germanic then evolved from the Indo-European spoken in the Urheimat region. The succession of archaeological horizons suggests that before their language differentiated into the individual Germanic branches the Proto-Germanic speakers lived in southern Scandinavia and along the coast from the Netherlands in the west to the Vistula in the east around 750 BC).[6]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 01:08
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Ok, as you read here about the Pitted Ware culture (ca 3200 BC– ca 2300 BC) in southern Scandinavia which was contemporary and overlapping with the agricultural Funnelbeaker culture, it spoke a language related to the Finno-Ugric languages

Again a misreading by you.  What the source says is:
Originally posted by Wikipedia Wikipedia wrote:

Its connections with the probably pre-Indo-European Funnelbeaker culture and the probably Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture are debated. As the language left no records, its linguistic affiliations are a mystery. It has been suggested that it spoke a language related to the Finno-Ugric languages and provided the unique linguistic features discussed in the Germanic substrate hypothesis.
As you can see the language left no records so there is no way anybody can say it is related to the FInno-Urgic languages with any certainty, as you seem to imply above.  Notice the word suggested, that should tell you that there is no certainty to the information that comes after it, in this case that the Pitted Ware Culture spoke a Finno-Urgic language.  You might also want to read the article on the Germanic Substrate hypothesis, the whole point of the hypothesis is to explain certain elements of the Germanic Languages that are not Indo-European.  
Quote and you can read here about the second one which was developed farming culture of southern Scandinavia, that "Little can be said about its ethnic or linguistic roots. In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, the culture is seen as non-Indo-European."
The Kurgan hypothesis is just one hypothesis concerning who were the original speakers of Proto-Indo-European, the problem with these hypotheses in places like Scandinavia is that there is no evidence as to what languages were spoken by the people living in Scandinavia during the 3rd Millennium BC, so nothing can be said with any certainty.  There is a competing hypothesis called the Paleolithic Continuity Theory which argues a number of things as can be seen in the link.  When examining the archaeological evidence proponents note that there is a lack of evidence for a Indo-European Invasion.  About the historical reconstruction of this theory wikipedia says this:
Quote Associated with the Paleolithic Continuity Theory (PCT) is the historical reconstruction proposed by Alinei, which suggests that Indo-European speakers were native in Europe since thepaleolithic. According to this reconstruction, the differentiation process of languages would have taken an extremely long time; by the end of the Ice Age the Indo-European language family had differentiated into proto Celtic/Italic/Germanic/Slavic/Baltic speakers occupying territories within or close to their traditional homelands. The rate of change accelerated when (Neolithic) social stratification and colonial wars began. Summarizing:[2]

  1. The colonial expansion of the Celts started much earlier than La Tene and proceeded (generally) from West to East, not vice versa.
  2. The Mesolithic cultures of Northern Europe are identified with already differentiated Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Uralic groups.
  3. Scandinavia was colonized by Germanic groups "only" after deglaciation, and was better able to preserve its original character in isolation. Germany, in contrast, suffered fragmentation as a result of the Neolithic appearance of the Linear Pottery culture, and developed a wealth of dialects.
  4. The prehistoric distribution of proto-languages akin to Italic was an important factor underlying the current distribution of Romance languages throughout Europe.
  5. The Slavic languages originated in the Balkans and became linked with the Neolithic expansion. This group would be especially identified by the Baden culture.[5]

The Paleolithic Continuity hypothesis reverses the Kurgan hypothesis and largely identifies the Indo-Europeans with Gimbutas' "Old Europe."[6] PCT reassigns the Kurgan culture (traditionally considered early Indo-European) to a people of predominantly mixed Uralic and Turkic stock. This hypothesis is supported by the tentative linguistic identification of Etruscans as a Uralic, proto-Hungarian people that had already undergone strong proto-Turkish influence in the third millennium BC,[5] when Pontic invasions would have brought this people to the Carpathian Basin. A subsequent migration of Urnfield culture signature around 1250 BC caused this ethnic group to expand south in a general movement of people, attested by the upheaval of the Sea Peoples and the overthrow of an earlier Italic substrate at the onset of the "Etruscan" Villanovan culture.[5]

So as you can see the Kurgan Hypothesis is not the only explanation as to who were the original speakers of Proto-Indo European.  PCT actually argues against the Kurgan Hypothesis and is an academically accepted alternative to the Kurgan hypothesis.

Quote Therefore the original inhabitants of southern Scandinavia and Gotland were non-Indo-Europeans and spoke a Finno-Ugric language
As I have shown above you can't make this claim with any certainty or any high probability.  There are varying schools of thought on this subject and one school, PCT, argues that by this time (3100 BC) the people living in Scandinavia were already speaking a Proto-Germanic language, but since there is no attested language from these people no one will ever know for sure what they spoke.  
Quote but Goths were an Indo-European people and if they didn't live there then they should have migrated from another land to this region, I didn't talk about any invasion, the migration could occur peacefully.
 An invasion doesn't have to be violent, it can simply be a migration, incoming, or spread of something to a certain place with the result usually being harmful to what is already at that place.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 18:24

Ok, as you read here about the Pitted Ware culture (ca 3200 BC– ca 2300 BC) in southern Scandinavia which was contemporary and overlapping with the agricultural Funnelbeaker culture, it spoke a language related to the Finno-Ugric languages and you can read here about the second one which was developed farming culture of southern Scandinavia, that "Little can be said about its ethnic or linguistic roots. In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, the culture is seen as non-Indo-European."

Therefore the original inhabitants of southern Scandinavia and Gotland were non-Indo-Europeans and spoke a Finno-Ugric language but Goths were an Indo-European people and if they didn't live there then they should have migrated from another land to this region, I didn't talk about any invasion, the migration could occur peacefully.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 18:23
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Styrbiorn, it seems that you know many things but you don't want to tell us! I have never talked about Persians in this thread and I believe there was absoultely no relation between ancient Gutians and Kassites of western Iran and Persians or even other Iranian-speaking peoples, as I said several times Iranian-speaking peoples themselves believed their original land was somewhere in the remote north and they have migrated to Iranian plateau and other regions in the Central Asia and Eastern Europe, of course there was certainly a strong cultural influence of the native people of Iran on the Iranian-speaking people after the migration, for example as I said in this thread about Old Norse Tyr and Gutian Tir/Tirigan, according to this book: A history of Zoroastrianism By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet, Tir/Tyr was probably the chief god of western Iranians, who incorporated his cult into Zoroastrianism at their conversion.

Sorry, I meant of course Gutians in my last post Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 17:16
There was the Pitted Ware Culture, the Battle-Axe Culture, and the Funnelbeaker Culture all living in Scandinavia by 3100 BC.  There is also the Wielbark Culture and the culture found at Ajvide, Here is an article about birds and the burials found at Ajvide.  For more information of the Ajvide settlement(s) read here.  By the way I have mentioned Ajvide and the Wielbark Culture before in this thread, you must have missed it then.  As far as I can tell nobody in Europe at that time could be said to live in cities.  There's no way to know for sure what they spoke since no writing survives from that time in Scandinavia, one can only hypothesize.  What is your point, Cyrus?  Will you actually answer one of my questions for once?  How do you reconcile the fact that people have inhabited Gotland and Scandinavia since before 3100 BC?  If there was an invasion of people why is there no evidence of this invasion?  Please answer my questions!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 16:57
Styrbiorn, it seems that you know many things but you don't want to tell us! I have never talked about Persians in this thread and I believe there was absoultely no relation between ancient Gutians and Kassites of western Iran and Persians or even other Iranian-speaking peoples, as I said several times Iranian-speaking peoples themselves believed their original land was somewhere in the remote north and they have migrated to Iranian plateau and other regions in the Central Asia and Eastern Europe, of course there was certainly a strong cultural influence of the native people of Iran on the Iranian-speaking people after the migration, for example as I said in this thread about Old Norse Tyr and Gutian Tir/Tirigan, according to this book: A history of Zoroastrianism By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet, Tir/Tyr was probably the chief god of western Iranians, who incorporated his cult into Zoroastrianism at their conversion.

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 30-May-2009 at 16:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 14:23
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I have some questions about Sweden, my first question is about Coat of Arms of Sweden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sweden.svg 
 

 
Was there any lion in Sweden?!
 
You can see the Kassite arm in this website: Cultural Heritage Luristan Website
 
 

 


The Danish arms sport elephants and  wyrms, which, since these don't live in Denmark, must mean that the Danes descend from Indians and Atlanteans.
Quote
I don't want to deny it, because the people could live everywhere from very ancient times, but were they a civilized people? Is there any city in Gotland from this period? Were they a Germanic-speaking people or non-Germanic?


You have no clue about the basic history of Gotland but still you know perfectly well -much better than anyone who actually studied the topic - that the Gotlanders descend from Persians?

The Gotlanders were Barbarians in the eyes of Europe until around 1000 AD. I guess that once and for all proofs that they can't be descendants of civilized Persians.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 30-May-2009 at 14:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2009 at 14:10
Where did I say that Gotland was a desert island before the Gutian migration?!! What is your source about the people who lived on Gotland about 3100 BC (more than 5100 years ago)? I don't want to deny it, because the people could live everywhere from very ancient times, but were they a civilized people? Is there any city in Gotland from this period? Were they a Germanic-speaking people or non-Germanic?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 19:47
So they were totally different from the people who lived/live in Sweden according to your post.

You never answered my question about reconciling the fact that there were people living on Gotland as early as 3100 BC.  If the people you are talking about didn't arrive in Scandinavia until 1200-1000 BC where is the archaeological evidence showing this invasion?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 19:35

We are comparing the anceint people of a small region in the western Iran (Luristan) and the Swedish island of Gotland, according to Mesopotamian inscriptions we know the people who lived in this part of Iran were light-haired in the ancient times, something which is already a minority in Iran, unlike Sweden, this people were called "Got", again in the last 2,000 years they were a small miniority in Iran, unlike Sweden, this people created some great bronze objects, archaeologists have not found similar ones in Iran or even in Luristan from the later periods, unlike Sweden, this people believed in gods and other things that Persians and other peoples of Iran didn't believe, unlike the people of Sweden, there are several evidences which show there was a migration from this part of Iran to Sweden around 1200-1000 BC when this people lost their power in this region and there are some modern sources which confirm this fact but there are also people who can easily deny this fact!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:54
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

This is not something that I myself believe but as as I said Germanic peoples themselves believed, do you want to say they believed wrong and there was no Indo-European migration to the Germanic lands?!!
Nobody has said that there was no Indo-European migration to the Germanic lands, where do you get this rubbish?  Don't you realize that the Germanic people/language is an Indo-European language so of course there was a Indo-European migration to these lands.  It's like if you don't have anything of substance to say your come back with a question like this.  Did they really believe this or are you just buying into what Snorri says too much?  If you're buying into what Snorri says then you should know that he claims they (the Asgard) came from Troy (that seems to be reliable (sarcasm)).  By the way just because somebody believes something doesn't make it true, for instance I believe the NY Jets are the best Football (American) Team in the National Football League, the fact that the Pittsburgh Steelers won the Superbowl would argue differently.  As you can see the fact that people believe something doesn't make it true.  If believing something made that thing true then half of the nations of Europe would all be descended from the Trojans, Amerindians wouldn't go near places like geysers and Anasazi sites because of some fear, and Iraq would have had Weapons of Mass Destruction; just to name a few beliefs that are wrong but were/are still believed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:42

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

This is not something that I myself believe but as as I said Germanic peoples themselves believed, do you want to say they believed wrong and there was no Indo-European migration to the Germanic lands?!!

Not Germanic peoples, one Christian who wanted to make a connection between Biblical stories and Germanic mythology. This is not found in earlier works. Yes, he believed wrong.

For a moment it seemed to me that you consider it as a sufficient evidence when a whole nation believes in something - are you serious?!

Yes, there was IE migration to Scandinavia, but not as Snorri describes it. I don't even know why I still bother...anyone knows?

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:35
This is not something that I myself believe but as as I said Germanic peoples themselves believed, do you want to say they believed wrong and there was no Indo-European migration to the Germanic lands?!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:33
What is the point of your posting about Asgard?  It doesn't help your case at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:31
Actually, Snorri suggests that Troy is the "mythical homeland" of the Æsir; this is also the homeland that Vergil gives to Rome, it is also the homeland of many European kingdoms that have no other connection to Troy other than it being mentioned in Chronicles.  You also fail to understand how medieval mythical origin theories work.  You also fail to understand what a folk etymology is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 18:18
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

The important point is that Germanic peoples themselves believed that they migrated from a southern region (Asgard) to the Northern Europe, more inf about Asgrad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard (As-gard, he conjectures, is the home of the Æsir (singular Ás) in As-ia, making a folk etymological connection between the three "As-"; that is, the Æsir were "men of Asia", not gods, who moved from Asia to the north and some of which intermarried with the peoples already there. Snorri's interpretation of the 13th century foreshadows 20th century views of Indo-European migration from the east.)

This has already been discussed. You were proved wrong and you're wrong now. Why do you keep recycling refuted trash??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 17:58
The important point is that Germanic peoples themselves believed that they migrated from a southern region (Asgard) to the Northern Europe, more inf about Asgrad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard (As-gard, he conjectures, is the home of the Æsir (singular Ás) in As-ia, making a folk etymological connection between the three "As-"; that is, the Æsir were "men of Asia", not gods, who moved from Asia to the north and some of which intermarried with the peoples already there. Snorri's interpretation of the 13th century foreshadows 20th century views of Indo-European migration from the east.)


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 29-May-2009 at 17:59
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