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    Posted: 07-Jun-2009 at 22:11
We also have the myth about the blue eyed, Welsh speaking Native Americans who in some way should be descendants to an expedition to North America by Welsh prince Madoc. He should have arrived to the east coast of America sometimes in the 12th century. Funny enough people have later connected him with the Mandan people who live 1500 miles from the east coast.
 
 
That Mandan is not Welsh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 16:40
Nobody has said that. The grapes of our famous wines -I'm Chilean- are French; so much so we have more French parrs than they had. As any expert would tell you, the phylostera disaster wiped out the French wine industry, but we still got the old grapes LOL
I wouldn't say north american native wines are inferior, but just less known that the rest. What is amazing, though, is that north america has native graps while south america lacks them-


Edited by pinguin - 26-May-2009 at 16:41
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 16:17
All wines that I'm aware of in the US at least are grown from European grape stocks. Any introduction of US native grapes is considered to ruin them because of the inferior nature of native grapes.

Being grown in Chile doesn't mean the stocks were native. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 15:50
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Huckleberries are not blueberries!! Again, its a confusion of naming but the berries referred to that way are a similar plant of the same genus, but not the same species at all.
 
Interesting with all these blue berrys:
 
"Huckleberry is a name used in North America for several plants in two closely related genera in the family Ericaceae: Gaylussacia and Vaccinium. The Huckleberry is the state fruit of Idaho.
While some Vaccinium species, such as the Red Huckleberry, are always called huckleberries, other species may be called blueberries or huckleberries depending upon local custom. Usually, the distinction between them is that blueberries have numerous tiny seeds, while huckleberries have 10 larger seeds (making them more difficult to eat).

The 'garden huckleberry' (Solanum melanocerasum) is not considered to be a true huckleberry but a member of the nightshade family."

 
Wild Huckleberry
 
Garden Huckleberry
 
 
Billberry (blåbär) (Vaccinium myrtillus)
 
 
  Billberry  
 
 
 
Blueberry (nordamerikanskt blåbär) Vaccinium, sect. Cyanococcus
 
   Blueberry

 

Ather a luck thet we had Linné who created the binominal system so one can find out what species is what.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2009 at 01:05

 

[/QUOTE]

Ah, well, there are both (of a fashion), and neither of them introduced. There is the Wendigo, who resembles a vampire - a cannibal spirit of the forest, who is driven by an urge to eat human flesh and can infect others and cause them to become Wendigo as well.

There are also the "Little People", not unlike gnomes or elves, who have magical powers and are rarely seen. They are related to the myth of the Dark Dance among the Cherokee and Iroqouis:

htm

Neither of these are borrowed.

[/QUOTE]

Interesting!!

I found it interesting that on a certain ceremonial celebration the Hopi shut down the highway and other roads into the village and people are told to stay inside. The dead cannot come back to their village if living people are using the road but they come in cloud form and bring the rain. If you know how dry the Hopi reservation is then you will see how important it is for their ancestors to return during this celebration, they bring the rain. The celebration is for Masau' u so during the celebration white people or even none Hopi cannot take part in the ceremony so nothing is really known what takes place.

Edited by eaglecap - 07-Apr-2009 at 01:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2009 at 19:28
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am not expert in North American native mythology, but my instinct say me that if the myth resemble too much an European myth, then it was introduced. A vampire or a gnome would make me suspicious, for instance.
 

Ah, well, there are both (of a fashion), and neither of them introduced. There is the Wendigo, who resembles a vampire - a cannibal spirit of the forest, who is driven by an urge to eat human flesh and can infect others and cause them to become Wendigo as well.

There are also the "Little People", not unlike gnomes or elves, who have magical powers and are rarely seen. They are related to the myth of the Dark Dance among the Cherokee and Iroqouis:

http://www.kahonwes.com/iroquois/littlepe.htm

Neither of these are borrowed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 18:45
Pueblo Gods and myth by Hamilton Tyler -in this book it is interesting how he contrasts the Greek gods to the Hopi/Pueblo Indian gods. Like in the first chapter about their god of the underworld Masau' u the author contrasts this god with Hermes and gives numerous examples about how these gods compared. The next chapter he writes about the Hopi underworld and he is contrasting the Hopi/Pueblo god with Demeter. I have just started this chapter.

Sara Winnemucca in her book "Life Among the Paiutes" she talks about her tribe encountering a race of white men and of course there was conflict but I get the feeling this encounter is very old or prior the the Americans arriving- Spaniards- ???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 01:25
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

It is interesting how Hopi/Pueblo myth evolved after the contact with the whiteman. Did the arrival of Christianity impact native beliefs and how much did it affect their myths? I wonder if the horse altered their mtyhs since it was the whiteman who introduced the horse to them? ...
 
Interesting observation! Carl Sagan in Cosmos called me the attention to two similar situations, about ancient legends that were actually based in the first contacts with the White men. He shown a maya legend where the europeans were shown as gods, and also a legend about a North American group of the North West that described a contact with a French ship which is despicted as a giant sea monster.
 
I liked that approach to see legend as based in facts.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2009 at 22:27
It is interesting how Hopi/Pueblo myth evolved after the contact with the whiteman. Did the arrival of Christianity impact native beliefs and how much did it affect their myths? I wonder if the horse altered their mtyhs since it was the whiteman who introduced the horse to them?

Masau'u ....perhaps he was not always the god of fire but in the recent statement (1964) by Hermequaftewa,Chief of the Blue Bird clas at Shongopovi he is not. We came to his land only after recieving permission from our Great Spirit, Masau' u. He was living on this land with the keeper of fire, who is the Spider women...I Suspect, however, this arrangment is a late construct designed to preserve a place for Spider women and the War Twins in the place of rapidly developing monotheism.
Publo Gods and myth by Hamilton Tyler page 18


image of Masau'u a Hopi/Pueblo god


By jamesk7 on Flickr

Edited by eaglecap - 03-Apr-2009 at 00:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 19:25
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I wish someone would point that out to Cyrus over in the thread on the original inhabitants of England Smile



confused point out what????

Once when we were teenagers we held an attempted Seance in Havasupai Canyon, a part of the Grand Canyon,and a mist appeared and scared the tar out of my older brother and freinds. I had left prior to this so I did not see it.

Apparently, the reason why they had the seance was to contact the spirit of a Havasupai Indian women who according to legend commited suicide after her lover's death. Then,in the same area, there is Mooney Falls which is named after a drunk miner who fell off of them 200 feet to his death or according to legend. At night this area is creepy and it is the type of place where myths and legends can be spun.


Havasupai Falls near the Grand Canyon
By SsQuanta on Flickr


Mooney Falls
By david haggard on Flickr
The climb down to Mooney Falls is very steep and there are chains to hold on to and it passes through a few caves on the way down. I need to go back there sometime.
I am sure the Havasupai tribe has a ton of myths about the area but they are one of the few tribes still on their ancestral lands and the last place in the USA where mail is still delievered by horse- 14 miles to the village.

Edited by eaglecap - 26-Feb-2009 at 20:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 11:52
I wish someone would point that out to Cyrus over in the thread on the original inhabitants of England Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2009 at 00:03
The coyote myths and this Hopi/Pueblo myth are pre Columbian. The Coyote has always been seen as a trickster in varous west coast tribes such as the Salish, Chumash etc. I have never heard any native American say this idea was introduced by the Europeans. I think the trickster is common amongst a lot of mythology around the world such as Loke in Norse mythology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2009 at 23:57
Depends on Native American culture.
 
The concept of the tricker, for example, doesn't exist in Mapuche mythology.
Christian cosmology is relatively easy to detect when had influenced Native American cultures. The Popol Vuh written in the 17th century, by Hispanized Mayan Indians, and show some Christian influences; however, most of the book shows very accurately the Ancient Mayan beliefs, which are well documented today because the ancient mayan stelae has been read.
 
I am not expert in North American native mythology, but my instinct say me that if the myth resemble too much an European myth, then it was introduced. A vampire or a gnome would make me suspicious, for instance.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2009 at 23:01
I wonder how close Hohokham, Mogollon and Anasazi mythology is to more modern Hopi or Pueblo myth?

I know shift changers or being able to change form are common in a lot of Native American mythology- Does anyone have a good story about shape shifters?

How much has Native American mythology changed with the arrival of the Europeans and the horse, guns, food, disease, religion, or other inventions the Europeans brought in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2009 at 20:34
I started to read Hopi gods and myths and I find it very facinating because it compares Hopi myth to Greek. I once saw a show about things that happened that the government has silenced. The show talked about how some archaeologist found a room in the southwest and entered the threshold and then came to an interior door. They felt a strong breeze blow against them when they tried to enter but ignored it. ( I would have stopped) Once the first man entered he instantly died so they sent in a robot but some force would not allow it to go very far. A man of Hopi or Pueblo ancestry was allowed in and met some beautiful Hopi woman who allowed him to enter this mystical realm, he never returned. At the end the government blew up the entrance with dynamite. For me, it was entertaining and I did not take it serious, although, I believe in a realm we cannot see. Funny, Hopi gods and myth talks about a doorway that brought the Hopi into this world and takes them out upon death and it is only for Hopi. I am sure the script writer read about this but who knows- I am not totally closed minded to the other side. I wonder if there is anyone of Hopi or Pueblo ancestry here?   Did anyone else see this show broadcasted 3-4 years ago.

I was also reading about Masauwu or Skeleton Man who takes a similar role as Satan in Christian/ Jewish beliefs. His is also a trickster also like satan and the Coyote. The book talked about a professor who was at a Hopi village during a sacred cermony ( cannot recall the name now) but all roads are blocked so that a highway to the supernatural world can be bridged. If someone enters the village during this ceremony then this road to the heavens is cut off. The professor was not Hopi so he was asked to stay inside and out of sight duirng the ceremony so he complied. He was alone and suddenly saw a man by his side and asked how did you get in and this happened three times. The man said I want to entertain you but the proffessor replied, go away I am busy and suddenly the man disapeared but then reappeared with different faces. To sum it up the old professor suddenly realized that this was Masauwu the Hopi god of death and life. Of course, this is the Hopi version and according to the Professors version he left because of a small pox outbreak- who do you believe?

Masauwu was alternately described as a handsome, bejeweled man beneath his mask or as a bloody, fearsome creature – Like I said the old Proffessor saw different faces of this Hopi god, whether it really happened or not – well ?????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_mythology



Edited by eaglecap - 25-Feb-2009 at 20:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 18:48
thanks gcle2003 when I get a chance I will read those stories but it looks interesting. I still have to summarize the star story so maybe when I have time I will do that and post it here. I gather the moral of the star story is watch out what you wish for and be content with what you have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 11:51
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:


Has anyone heard of tales like this one?
 
There's a nice story about Blowing Rock in North Carolina. I was there a few years ago but didn't try out the miraculous powers.
 
 
Sometimes myths are true. I wonder if this will be dismissed as myth sometime in the future:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2009 at 21:11
Originally posted by red clay red clay wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You bet. American cotton is better than Old World's. They same is true with strawberries, whose American variety is the main contributor to the modern hybrids.
 

In the case of wine, though, I am afraid European grapes are better. Too bad.

 

Not an expert by any means, but I've had some Chilean wines that were outstanding.  The European export wines have gone up in price and down in quality.[That last statement was merely a statement of personal opinion. So chill.]

 

That friend I once mentioned, the doctor from Chile, turned us on to really fine Chilean wine.  


Wine from Walla Walla, Washington are excellent!!

I have a story, from a Pacific Northwest tribe, which I will have to summarize later about two Native American girl, joking around the campfire, made a regretfull wish. They saw all the beautiful stars in the midnight sky and one wished the white star would be her husband and the other wished the blue star to be her husband. You really should watch out what you wish for because the stars became men and came to their bedrooms and took them to another world. The white star turned out not only to be unattractive but a jerk but the blue star turned out to be handsome and kind. I will try and add more on this later. What is the moral of this tale- stay tuned!!
Has anyone heard of tales like this one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 18:08
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, just see it this way. There are thousand of researchers studying Greeks while in here you may have hitted virgin territory.
 


In my case, I haven't seen a full comparative study about the cristianization of the Americas from Alaska to the Land of Fire; that could be a monumental work. The study of the evolution of society from the Anazasis to modern Hopi and Pueblo may be another interesting line of research. Even such mundane work as to research Pueblo architecture is something amazing. In short, you have there a good opportunity.

 


That is so true and in the desert Southwest the archaeologist work hand in hand with the Native Americans. It is interesting at some of the museum events the archaeologist explians the history from his angle and then the Native American goes into the myths and folklore that relate to the finds. Some of the artifacts are being reclaimed because of the Repatriation Act. I wonder if this is why the Northwest Muesum of Art and culture put most of their large native collection out of sight and only for research-

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 00:18
Well, just see it this way. There are thousand of researchers studying Greeks while in here you may have hitted virgin territory.
 
In my case, I haven't seen a full comparative study about the cristianization of the Americas from Alaska to the Land of Fire; that could be a monumental work. The study of the evolution of society from the Anazasis to modern Hopi and Pueblo may be another interesting line of research. Even such mundane work as to research Pueblo architecture is something amazing. In short, you have there a good opportunity.
 


Edited by pinguin - 27-Jan-2009 at 00:19
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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