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Forum LockedOghuz Turkic in Diwan-ul Lughat-ul Turk

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    Posted: 18-May-2009 at 20:04
A small note:
This book is written for arabians.
The writer(Kaşgarlı Mahmut-Mahmut from Kashgar)  has wanted to taught theTurkish language to Arabians.Because of this,Originial title of book is dictionary ( Turkish to Arabian Language).
TENGRİ TEG TENGRİDE BOLMIŞ TÜRK BİLGE KAĞAN-
TURK WISE KHAN WHO BECAME IN SKY LIKE SKY-GOD
---
tengir ordo(people of Tengri-God-)                 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 07:06
So, could you please explain where in this book, Kashghari talks about Oghuz tribes locations "from Southern Kazakistan to the borders of todays Turkey"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 13:40
Quote Gok_Toruk
You said, in your previous post, " The Oghuz Turkish being referred to could not of been referring to Turkic used in Byzantine lands as the Oghuz had not fully established themselves in the region yet. "; but now you're saying "he locates most of them from Southern Kazakistan to the borders of todays Turkey."
 
This doesn't change the point that the Oghuz Turks had not fully established themselves in the Byzantine realm. The Seljuks had a policy of moving the most unruly Oghuz tribes to the Byzantine frontier were they would raid and cause unrest for the Byzantines instead of the Seljuks.
 
Quote Gok_Toruk
First of all, according to Kashghari, Turkmen Oghuzes had 22 tribes - not 24. What's more, he didn't talked about them being close to Modern Turkey. Could you please give references for your sentence " he locates most of them from Southern Kazakistan to the borders of todays Turkey"? Thanks.
 
Your correct, it was Rashid al-din who wrote that Oghuz had 24 tribes.
The locations is based on those regions being were Oghuz Turks were dominating during that period.
 
Quote Gok_Toruk
Anyhow, wether Turkmen Oghuzes were 22 or 24 (we are 9 "core tribes" now, each one having sub-tribes), wether if we believe ALL Turkmen tribes moved to Turkey or only a small population of Turkmens settled in Anatolia,... I'm just talking about 2 different Turkic dialects under the same GENERAL name "Oghuz", in Kashghari's books.
 
I don't think all Turkmen tribes migrated, however, some were moved to the frontier borders by the Seljuks and after they conquered Anatolia took advantage of the power vacum, other migrated during the Mongol and Timurid eras.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 09:39
Not to change the topic, but does anyone know who was the Khan/Khaghan of Turkistan contemporary to Makhmud Kashghari?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 09:35

You said, in your previous post, " The Oghuz Turkish being referred to could not of been referring to Turkic used in Byzantine lands as the Oghuz had not fully established themselves in the region yet. "; but now you're saying "he locates most of them from Southern Kazakistan to the borders of todays Turkey.

First of all, according to Kashghari, Turkmen Oghuzes had 22 tribes - not 24. What's more, he didn't talked about them being close to Modern Turkey. Could you please give references for your sentence " he locates most of them from Southern Kazakistan to the borders of todays Turkey"? Thanks.

Anyhow, wether Turkmen Oghuzes were 22 or 24 (we are 9 "core tribes" now, each one having sub-tribes), wether if we believe ALL Turkmen tribes moved to Turkey or only a small population of Turkmens settled in Anatolia,... I'm just talking about 2 different Turkic dialects under the same GENERAL name "Oghuz", in Kashghari's books.



Edited by gok_toruk - 22-Jul-2008 at 09:49
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Quote Gok_Toruk
-So, that's a problem! In the first category, Kashghari names some neighbor tribes (Turkmens, at that time, lived in present-day Kazakstan) such as Qyrqizes, Oghuzes, Tokhsi as speakers of PURE Turkic.
 
The Kinik Oguz who founded the Seljuks and the Kayi were also located around modern-day southern Kazakistan. The 24 Oghuz is listed by Kashgari and he locates most of them from Southern Kazakistan to the borders of todays Turkey.
 
Turkic of Turkmenistan must be the closest to the Oghuz Turkic of that era, the Anatolian/Azerbaycan/Iran Turkic has more foreign lexical borrowings, in Kashgari's era these regional Oghuz dialects may have not existed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2008 at 20:10

-So, that's a problem! In the first category, Kashghari names some neighbor tribes (Turkmens, at that time, lived in present-day Kazakstan) such as Qyrqizes, Oghuzes, Tokhsi as speakers of PURE Turkic. Here, Kashghari says "they have a UNITED language". But then, in the second classification, Oghuzes are classified as "people, close to Rome, who speak a broken Turkic dialect". Two Oghuzes with differnet dialects in two different locations? This is contadictory, isnt' it? Unless if these 2 Oghuzes were different geographical groups under the same general name "Oghuz".

-About "ben": yes, Eastern Anatolians use "men"; but still "ben" is exclusive to Turkish. And I don't think it's a "recent change" as you call it; but rather an old word, brought in use again. In fact, Proto-Turkic form for "I" is "be-(n)".

-Turkmen doesn't say "gahraman"; "gahraman" is Azeri-style. That would be "ghahraman" in Turkmen. Anyhow, again, like the case above, this shift exists only in Turkish and Azeri. 

- The exact sentence: “Oghuzes, when speaking of doing something, use ‘etty’ “. For sure, "et-mek" is used in Turkish and Azeri too - since it's a common Turkic verb. "Teshekkür et-mek" is "the act of thanking someone". But when talking about "accomplishing something", Turkish people use "yapti", unlike Turkmen "etti". Although it's meaningful to say "bunu etmen lazim" ("you should do this") in Turkish, but you don't say so (or "böyle et" = "act so; do so"), do you?

-About "Alyq": I think I haven't explained this section well. I mean, although "alV" has been preserved as "al-chaq" in both Turkmen and Turkish, but "al-yq" (of the same stem) which Kashghari says it's Oghuz, exists only in Turkmen. Turkish and Azeri don't have such a word. So, the Oghuz dialect mentioned here, would be Turkmen.



Edited by gok_toruk - 21-Jul-2008 at 05:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2008 at 13:51
Quote GokToruk

3- “Qyrqiz, Qipchaq, Oghuz, Tokhsi, Yaghma, Chygyl, Ughraq, Charuq speak the pure Turkic and have a united language… in Turkic languages, people of Suvar and Bulghar, to Pechenek in Rome country, after breaking the words and abbreviations, have the same language. The easiest (most broken) dialect is for Oghuzes and the most correct form is Yaghma and Tokhsi. “

Note: Here, first, Oghuz Turkic has been classified as the pure Turkic, and then, after introducing Turkic languages of Byzantine, it has been classified as the slightest Turkic. 


Turkish and Azeri are, unlike Turkmen, the slightest and easiest Turkic languages. What’s more, Yaghma which has been mentioned by Kashghari as (one of) the most correct Turkic dialects, was a sub-tribe of 9 Oghuzes.
 
I find alot of your posts really interesting, especially the way you share your investigations with us however, regarding this interpretation I have a few questions.
 
The book was written in 1072, however, the Sultanate of the Rum was established in 1077, the Oghuz Turkish being referred to could not of been referring to Turkic used in Byzantine lands as the Oghuz had not fully established themselves in the region yet. Byzantine-Turkic interactions had been between Khazars, Huns, Pechenegs ie mainly non-muslim Turks until that era.
 
The reason why he refers to Oghuz Turkic as the easiest/broken form to learn is for the Arabs the book was intended for. The Oghuz Turks being in the closest contact with the Arabs and Persians had adopted more words from them. Mahmud Qashqari also writes that the Oghuz Turks will dominate the whole Near and Middle East so the Arab elite should start learning Turkic.
 
The listed 24 Oghuz clans also referred to as Turkmens lived around the Turkmenistan/Iran region during that period and had started expanding further into the middle east and surrounding areas.
 
Quote Gok_Toruk

Note: “Ben” is exclusive to Turkish. Turkmen uses “men” (I).

Official Turkish uses "Ben", however, in Anatolia its common to here "Men", all folk poems, songs, ballads use "Men", Turkmens in Syria and Iraq use Men, in Azerbaycan and Iran also Men is used.
 
Only Istanbul Turkish uses Ben and this is a recent change.
 
Quote Gok_Toruk
Note: This is usual of Turkish and Azeri. Turkmen “qara” (black) is “kara” in Turkish and “gara” in Azeri.
 
However, we must remember that these are modern modifications as a century ago all were using the Arabic/Ottoman Arabic script, the differences are due to the script changes and the real difference is only written. In Turkish it is written "Kara" however, colloquially can be pronounced gara. For example, officially written "Kahraman", across Anatolia colloquially you can hear it pronounced "Gahrimen/Gahriman" like in Turkmenistan.
 
 
Quote Gok_Toruk
12- Under the entry “etty”: “Oghuzes, when speaking of doing something, use ‘etty’ “

Note: Unlike Turkish “yapti” (did) and Azeri “eladi” (did), Turkmen uses “etty” (did).
 
How about, Tesekkur etti?
 
 
Quote Gok_Toruk

The Proto-Turkic form for this word was “alV” (“al”+ a consonant) which has been preserved as “al-cha-q” in both Turkmen and Turkish. But “al+yq” is exclusive to Turkmen; so, here, Kasghari meant (mother) Turkmen language – not Turkish or Azeri. 

Do you mean Turkish/Azeri's mother language is official Turkmen which has due to regional influences incorporated more foreign words and some alternate meanings for same words?

 
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Conclusion:

About nouns and verbs mentioned by Kashghari, we should note that the Altaic stems have been preserved in ALL Turkic languages. The difference is only in the way one dialect expands the word (based on prefixes, suffixes, etc.). And THIS is what distinguishes, let’s say, Turkmen and Kazak, or Turkmen (at one side) and Turkish & Azeri (at the other side). For example:


In Diwan-ul Lughat-ul Turk, under the entry “alyq”, it says: “in Oghuz and Qipchaq Turkic, mean and low of something”. 

The Proto-Turkic form for this word was “alV” (“al”+ a consonant) which has been preserved as “al-cha-q” in both Turkmen and Turkish. But “al+yq” is exclusive to Turkmen; so, here, Kasghari meant (mother) Turkmen language – not Turkish or Azeri. 


And, as we know, at the time of this book, there was no names “Anatolian Turkish” or “Azeri” and Kashghari’s words (in my idea) is about the mother form of these languages:

1- The mother Turkmen language (which has been mentioned, along with several others, as a form of pure Turkic)

2- The mother Anatolian and Azeri language (which are the lightest and easiest Turkic dialects)


Edited by gok_toruk - 20-Jul-2008 at 07:51
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17- Under the entry “kündy”: “mean; low (Oghuz Turkic)”

Note: “Künty” - as we say – exists in Turkmen only.



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16- Under the entry “tawar”: “live or dead animal; Oghuzes and their similar clans pronounce it with ‘v’ and say ‘tavar’ “

Note: “Tavar” and its lightened form ‘davar’ is exclusive to Turkish and Azeri. Turkmen pronounce this word with ‘w’. 

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15- “Turks call a grey thing ‘köp kök’ and Oghuzes say ‘köm kök’… “

Note: This change is also exclusive to Turkmen. 



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14- Under the entry “öndürdy”: “… Oghuzes don’t know this”

Note: “Öndür”, with the structure “(the stem) ön+ (relative) dür” (“ön”, meaning “to grow; to sprout) exists in Turkmen only.



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13- Under the entry “ayitty”: “… and Oghuzes say: ‘men angar söz ayittym’, meaning ‘I talked to him’ “

Note: The verb “ayt-maq”, among Oghuz dialects, is exclusive to Turkmen. Turkish and Azeri don’t have such a stem. 





Edited by gok_toruk - 20-Jul-2008 at 07:48
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12- Under the entry “etty”: “Oghuzes, when speaking of doing something, use ‘etty’ “

Note: Unlike Turkish “yapti” (did) and Azeri “eladi” (did), Turkmen uses “etty” (did).
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11- “The writer of this book, Makhmud, says that people called our fathers “Khamir” (Xamir); because Oghuzes can’t pronounce “Amir”. 

Note: Shifts from ‘a’ in the initial position to “kh” (x) is exclusive to Turkmen; but not Turkish or Azeri. 



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10- Under the entry “emür”: “in Oghuz Turkic, fog, mist”

Note: “Ümür” (as we say) exists only in Turkmen; but not in Turkish or Azeri.



Edited by gok_toruk - 20-Jul-2008 at 07:45
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9- Under the entry “öl”: “wet, moist; Oghuzes don’t know this”

Note: “Öl” exists in Turkmen - but not in Turkish or Azeri - and is differentiated from “öl” (to die) by vowel length: “öl” (to die) & “ö:l” (wet, moist).

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8- Under the entry “uch” (problem; difficulty): “They say in Oghuz Turkic: ‘...boyda ne uch bar?’ (...what’s the difficulty among the tribe?) “

Note: According to Kashghari, and as we know about reducing the initial Turkic ‘b’ into ‘v’ in Turkish and Azeri, so ‘boyda ne uch bar’ is Turkmen. Turkish and Azeri say “var” instead of “bar”.



Edited by gok_toruk - 19-Jul-2008 at 20:30
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7- Under the entry “ang”: “meaning ‘no; is not’ in Oghuz Turkic. “

Note: This Altaic root is preserved ONLY in Turkmen and does not exist in any other Turkic dialect. 



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