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Forum LockedScientific Evidence Sexuality is Pre-determined

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Scientific Evidence Sexuality is Pre-determined
    Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 04:28
More scientific evidence to show that, contrary to foreboding moralist ranting, sexuality is actually partially pre-determined in the womb rather than some insidious learned behaviour. This latest research adds to the growing volume of scientific fact which demonstrates that sexuality is naturally varied, especially in higher order mammals (of which we humans are one). Just as backwards thinking societies did one day have to come to term with their irrational bigotry and superstitions and put an end to witch burning, so they are today confronted with the awful truth that their centuries long persecution of a social minority is not only wholly unjustified but also an attack on the natural order.
 
The irony runs thick and fast as so-called "moral majority" advocates who have long condemned homosexual behaviour as unnatural, are now faced with a growing body of evidence demonstrating that it is a naturally occurring behaviour determined prior to birth. For years human rights advocates have argued hard that sexuality is not a choice, and this latest study provides validation to that. Now the way forward for the parts of the world where persecution is still practiced against homosexuals is to come to term with the morally reprehensible nature of their policies, and form a progressive outlook on the issue based on genuine compassion and respect for human beings whose sexual disposition is a normal product of nature.
 
 

Scans see 'gay brain differences'

The brains of gay men and women look like those found in straight people of the opposite sex, research suggests.

The Swedish study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences journal, compared the size of the brain's halves in 90 adults.

Gay men and straight women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and straight men.

A UK scientist said this was evidence sexual preference was set in the womb.

As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay
Dr Qazi Rahman
Queen Mary, University of London

Scientists have noticed for some time that homosexual people of both sexes have differences in certain cognitive abilities, suggesting there may be subtle differences in their brain structure.

This is the first time, however, that scientists have used brain scanners to try to look for the source of those differences.

A group of 90 healthy gay and straight adults, men and women, were scanned by the Karolinska Institute scientists to measure the volume of both sides, or hemispheres, of their brain.

When these results were collected, it was found that lesbian women and straight men shared a particular "asymmetry" in their hemisphere size, while straight women and gay men had no difference between the size of the different halves of their brain.

In other words, structurally, at least, gay men were more like straight women, and gay women more like straight men.

A further experiment found that in one particular area of the brain, the amygdala, there were other significant differences.

In heterosexual men and lesbian women, there were more nerve "connections" in the right side of the amygdala, compared with the left.

The reverse, with more neural connections in the left amygdala, was the case in homosexual men and straight women.

The Karolinska team said that these differences could not be mainly explained by "learned" effects, but needed another mechanism to set them, either before or after birth.

'Fight, flight or mate'

Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development.

"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.

The amygdala, he said, was important because of its role in "orientating", or directing, the rest of the brain in response to an emotional stimulus - be it during the "fight or flight" response, or the presence of a potential mate.

"In other words, the brain network which determines what sexual orientation actually 'orients' towards is similar between gay men and straight women, and between lesbian women and straight men.

"This makes sense given that gay men have a sexual preference which is like that of women in general, that is, preferring men, and vice versa for lesbian women."



Edited by Constantine XI - 17-Jun-2008 at 04:29
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 05:09
Certainly I think that this is often the case. That's not to say that this condition is permanent though, it probably develops, and can probably be corrected (if desired). It is probably affected by environment (what foods you eat/your mother eats and so on), but certainly a biological condition. I don't think anyone can say it is a coincidence gay men have a sterotype for being feminine, while lesbian women masculine.
 
That's not to say that all people who a homosexual have genuine biological reasons. I'm willing to bet a % just do it because its fashionable.
 
(Also being homosexual doesn't imply homosexual acts. Just as hetrosexuality doesn't imply sexual acts)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 05:26
Really this is excellent news, now we can do brain scans and abort all homosexual children that a way we can rid the world once and all of this disease.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 05:33
Originally posted by Omar

Certainly I think that this is often the case. That's not to say that this condition is permanent though, it probably develops, and can probably be corrected (if desired).
 
How exactly? The article provides evidence to show that natural brain functions are more pronounced based on sexuality. You could probably curb behaviours with intense psychological conditioning (i.e. the barbaric process of electro-shock therapy some countries have used), but how does that change the fact the the brains of these people are naturally developed pre utero neurologically?
 
Also the word "corrected" implies that there is something wrong with this natural disposition. While it may be the case that natural illnesses such as myopia need correcting, homosexuality would first have to be defined as harmful before being considered an illness and warrant anything in the way of correcting. A consideration of the phenomenon may just reveal that a population of non-breeding males with neurological inclinations to artistic and social innovation may just be of benefit to humanity as a whole; thus explaining its continued occurrance in such large numbers generation after generation.
 
I don't think anyone can say it is a coincidence gay men have a sterotype for being feminine, while lesbian women masculine.
 
I agree, there is probably a natural neurological pairing (or combination) of pronounced attributed in homosexuals in general. See the number of artists, performers etc through history to see a startlingly high prevalence of homosexuals.
 
That's not to say that all people who a homosexual have genuine biological reasons. I'm willing to bet a % just do it because its fashionable.
 
And risk all the associated homophobia and social exlcusion just for that? Not a chance. people don't have sex because its fashionable, they do it because they naturally want to have sex.
 
(Also being homosexual doesn't imply homosexual acts. Just as hetrosexuality doesn't imply sexual acts)
 
Sure, some people just don't have any luck.


Edited by Constantine XI - 17-Jun-2008 at 05:35
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 05:36
Originally posted by JanusRook

Really this is excellent news, now we can do brain scans and abort all homosexual children that a way we can rid the world once and all of this disease.

 
So this is what it takes to get a Catholic to approve abortion
Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 05:56

Originally posted by Constantine

How exactly? The article provides evidence to show that natural brain functions are more pronounced based on sexuality. You could probably curb behaviours with intense psychological conditioning (i.e. the barbaric process of electro-shock therapy some countries have used), but how does that change the fact the the brains of these people are naturally developed pre utero neurologically?

No idea. I'm just speculating. Even if it formed in the uterus and cannot be changed afterwards you may be able to influence the development of the child during pregnancy.

Also the word "corrected" implies that there is something wrong with this natural disposition. While it may be the case that natural illnesses such as myopia need correcting, homosexuality would first have to be defined as harmful before being considered an illness and warrant anything in the way of correcting. A consideration of the phenomenon may just reveal that a population of non-breeding males with neurological inclinations to artistic and social innovation may just be of benefit to humanity as a whole; thus explaining its continued occurrance in such large numbers generation after generation.

Your right that is why I added "(if desired)". As in, I couldn't figure out a way to say it without that implication. What I mean is, just as the probability of a disabled baby can be affected before birth (by say not smoking) and the severity can be adjusted after birth (eating properly etc) so probably could other biological mutations be affected.
-I'm not implying homosexual people are unwanted in the same way as a disabled person (ie, rather not be), I'm just searching for a comparision with another biological mutation and can't think of any words which are implication neutral-
And risk all the associated homophobia and social exlcusion just for that? Not a chance. people don't have sex because its fashionable, they do it because they naturally want to have sex.

Don't you believe it mate. People do have sex because it is fashionable (or more of it). I bet you could compare the celibacy rates over the last 100 years to show that. Some people I am sure would even do it for the homophobia - for a feeling of being different, and lets face this category of people probably change their minds later in life anyway.
But this is only some people.
So this is what it takes to get a Catholic to approve abortion

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Post Options Post Options   Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 08:16

Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development.

"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.

Herein lies the falsifiability test : Take the scans of thousands of foetus today, from different parts of the world, and use the theory to identify the supposed sexual orientation.
 
Check against the results 20 to 30 years later.  Of course, no other contact must be made with the test subjects whatsoever to otherwise influence their choices.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 09:17

Interesting study. Definatly needs more research with a far higher sample. What it dose not need is to be used as a political tool, either way.

If true than the genetics of the last 150 years is off.  Under the classical theory ,if it is a biologocal trait, then it can only be inherited. If it is a trait that leads to homosexuality, then very obviously there is a greatly reducedchance of it being passed down, so it should dissapear or be reduced immesly over generations, especially since this is a trait that adversely affects reproduction. It dose not make reproduction impossible, like say infertility dose, but less likely. Thus it should reduce every generation.
 
 Clearly this has not happened. Dr Rehman needs to reread his books.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 18:00
This is what I have believed for as far as I can remember anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 07:18
So this is what it takes to get a Catholic to approve abortion
Big%20smile


What can I say I was channeling my inner Paul. It's fun to do every so often.

Besides I thought Kinsey determined that there is no such thing as true homosexuality or true heterosexuality but that we all have certain attractions that are a combination of natural instincts, personal experiences and inherent human curiosity. Whether your whatever-sexual or not really depends on how much kink you enjoy in your life. Kink being defined as sexual practices that go against the mores of your cultural group.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 10:20
Bingo!
 
If I, a man, fall in love with a person I thought was a woman, but turns out to be a man in disguise, what does that make me?
 
If I stop loving the person, does that mean I really loved the person before?
 
Or if I do not stop loving the person, should I really be considered a homosexual since I thought the person was a woman at the time of falling in love?
 
Do we love the person or the gender the person belongs to?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote WÅ‚adysÅ‚aw Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 13:08
If we believed in all scientific news that are comming out almost each day....This is another "research" payed by gay organisations.Sexual diseases,such as homosexuality,necrophylia,pedophylia and so on are developed in early childhood.THat's what i think,but even if i'm not right and they are genetic it doesn't change the fact thay are bad and must not be "advertised" on gay pride parades or in the TV.
 
BTW. In one hour there will be a gay pride parade here in Sofia,and in half an hour there is a gathering of all,who want to stop this (christians,nazis,skinheads,nationalists,patriots and so on...).I go shave myself and than to beat some gays. Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 15:48
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

I go shave myself and than to beat some gays. Big%20smile


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Post Options Post Options   Quote WÅ‚adysÅ‚aw Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 19:50
The F* police arrested me and all other few hundred anti-gay activists.They held me for 3 hours in the police departament.Atleast i was in the same cage with the leader of the bulgarian nationalist organisation "Guard" and could speak with him.The gays however were surrounded by hundrets of policemen and menaged to do their gay parade. Censored
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Post Options Post Options   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 01:43
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

The F* police arrested me and all other few hundred anti-gay activists.They held me for 3 hours in the police departament.Atleast i was in the same cage with the leader of the bulgarian nationalist organisation "Guard" and could speak with him.The gays however were surrounded by hundrets of policemen and menaged to do their gay parade. Censored


You are actually proud of undermining other people's right
s?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 04:02
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

The F* police arrested me and all other few hundred anti-gay activists.They held me for 3 hours in the police departament.Atleast i was in the same cage with the leader of the bulgarian nationalist organisation "Guard" and could speak with him.The gays however were surrounded by hundrets of policemen and menaged to do their gay parade. Censored
the only people that are angry at gay people are the ones that fear a little movemnet downstairs when they get those thoughts
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cuauhtemoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 13:19
Originally posted by Constantine XI

The Karolinska team said that these differences could not be mainly explained by "learned" effects, but needed another mechanism to set them, either before or after birth.
This article is given more credibility then it should have in regards to saying a component of homosexuality is determined before birth. The article itself is not clear as to when these changes or the mechanism that set the changes occurred. First, adults were examined and for the article it is important because it says, it "needed another mechanism to set them off." However that mechanism may have occurred after birth. 2nd, the article itself when closely analyzed also says the change is "either before or after birth." This is not stating with any certainty at all, that this was determined in the womb. It seems it wants to lean in that direction, but when all is said and done, it does not.

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development.

"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.

Even this "authority," apparently basing his conclusions on this study seems to be cautious. Cautious because of the terminology he uses, in spite of the fact, he seems to want to place a very positive endorsement, he phrases it in such a way, that does not express confidence. Caution that does not allow much faith in the conclusions drawn by the study. Notice he says "he believed" and "as far as I'm concerned." With such statements as that he is only giving his personal opinion. This article cannot be cited as an endorsement that homosexuality is determined before birth because of the language used by this authority. Nor can this article be used as a statement of fact that homosexuality is determined in the womb when the article itself says it does not know when these changes occurred, "either before or after birth." It is one thing to say it was, "evidence sexual preference was set in the womb" and quite another thing to say the opposite, or leave the possibility, as it says, later in the article, these changes are "either before or after birth." Some no doubt will cite this article as an endorsement of homosexual development in the womb, but the article itself does not say that, as we can see. The best that can be said, according to the article is the "mechanism" is not known and that changes may have happened in the womb or after.



Edited by Cuauhtemoc - 29-Jun-2008 at 16:51
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Post Options Post Options   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 17:05
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

The F* police arrested me and all other few hundred anti-gay activists.They held me for 3 hours in the police departament.Atleast i was in the same cage with the leader of the bulgarian nationalist organisation "Guard" and could speak with him.The gays however were surrounded by hundrets of policemen and menaged to do their gay parade. Censored
the only people that are angry at gay people are the ones that fear a little movemnet downstairs when they get those thoughts




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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 03:48
Originally posted by Omar

Your right that is why I added "(if desired)". As in, I couldn't figure out a way to say it without that implication. What I mean is, just as the probability of a disabled baby can be affected before birth (by say not smoking) and the severity can be adjusted after birth (eating properly etc) so probably could other biological mutations be affected.
-I'm not implying homosexual people are unwanted in the same way as a disabled person (ie, rather not be), I'm just searching for a comparision with another biological mutation and can't think of any words which are implication neutral-
 
Ah now I see what you mean. Come to think of it an alternative to "corrected" is hard to think of. "Altered" might be a candidate?
 
Originally posted by Omar

Don't you believe it mate. People do have sex because it is fashionable (or more of it). I bet you could compare the celibacy rates over the last 100 years to show that. Some people I am sure would even do it for the homophobia - for a feeling of being different, and lets face this category of people probably change their minds later in life anyway.
But this is only some people.
 
Sorry mate but after this many years out and about in the gay community I have never once met anyone who acted "gay" when there was no kernal of sexual attraction to members of their own gender. Maybe you are equating metrosexuals with homosexuals? I see plenty of metrosexual guys these days, who are fashion conscious and well groomed - but that's just to attract the ladies.
 
Who knows, maybe in the whole of our country there are a couple of dozen guys who like the gay venues and cultural features enough to pretend they are something they are not - but I would say that the number is so small that it is statistically insignificant and not worth addressing when viewing the bigger picture.
 
I don't think celibacy and sexuality should really be equated either. Being celibate was ironically once a tool of sexual attraction (a girl would marry better if she wasn't considered a slut *excuse the language*). It wasn't that she suddenly became more sexually stimulated with the passage of decades, society just made celibacy less of an advantage for women. The desire was always there, it just is not so much repressed these days.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 03:50
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

The F* police arrested me and all other few hundred anti-gay activists.They held me for 3 hours in the police departament.Atleast i was in the same cage with the leader of the bulgarian nationalist organisation "Guard" and could speak with him.The gays however were surrounded by hundrets of policemen and menaged to do their gay parade. Censored
the only people that are angry at gay people are the ones that fear a little movemnet downstairs when they get those thoughts
 
Spot on Leonidas, and your insights are backed up by empirical research also:
 
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