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Forum LockedSiberian-Mongolian Heritage of the Americas

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Poll Question: It is there an Siberian-Mongolian heritage in Amerindian culture?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brasileiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 22:35
Thanks, those in the video look rather "pure" indeed. Nice video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 00:53
Indeed. Many natives throughout the Americas have a "siberian" look. I won't put Mapuches here because they have much admixture with Europeans these days, however this historical pictures of Yamanas of Patagonia, from the early 20th century, may convince people:
 
Today's descendents (most of them are mixed by now). In the picture below, some are Kawashkars (a people related to Yamanas)
 
Here, common Mapuche native people, who don't look much different from the rest of our population
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hukumari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 16:07

Brasileiro, thanks a lot for your valuable and excellent updated info in message 1.

Very interesting indeed even if a leading Russian geneticist, Ilya Zakharov, has claimed about ten years ago that he has taken a giant step toward identifying the precise origins of the Native Americans, based on his genetic studies of the Tuvan people in Siberia. 

http://www.fotuva.org/newsletters/fot20.html

Many Indian tribe and Tuvan Haplotype searches using YHRD and SMGF show that those theories have a solid background.

The greatest problem has been - at least to me – the origin of mtDNA-X of Yanomami.
The mtDNA-X2 of Ojibwa seems to lead us to Paleolithic Caucasus and Iran.

You mentioned:
The scientists also were able to detect genetic differences between northern and southern Chinese populations as well as variations within the Bedouin populations of the Middle East.

The Bedouins have nothing to do with the American indigenous people but I am personally interested about more details because that link doesn’t work on my computer.
Does the Bedouin investigation refer to Gebeliya tribe in South Sinai? I’ll bet the results lead us to the Attila Huns!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 17:27
What is odd is that they've found particular links with the most western living Siberians, as mentioned in the post Brasileiro and you wrote, not the most Eastern, and those only migrated into the easternmost areas relatively rencent. Mansi people are Uralic, Nenets are arctic Uralic, and Tuvan and Sakha/Yakut are sort of Turkic. That's only language, though.
Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hukumari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 19:30

Tuva has genetically and linguistically (?) many faces, especially during the interesting history after the Ice Age. The first migration wave happened surely before 10,000 years BC because Finno-Ugric Y-DNA-N3 cannot be seen among the Indigenous Tribes of America. N3 was still in North China before leaving to Volga-Ural area via Baikal and Altai.


I checked Tuvan 12 most common haplotypes by minimal haplotype search with the following results:
1. Haplotype:
Mostly in Europe, even among the Saami but some among Han-Chinese/Zhejiang, China, Singapore and Taiwan
2. Haplotype:
Most in Pakistan, Poland, Norway, Estonia, Finland, Saami, two among Han-Chinese etc.
3. Haplotype:
Strongly among American Indians Mapuche incl.
4. Haplotype:
China, Elista, Romania, Kazakhstan
5. Haplotype:
Poland, Belarus, Austria, Lithuania
6. Haplotype:
A lot in Elista (Kalmykian) and Kazahkstan
7. Haplotype:
Kalmykian
8. Haplotype:
Slovenia, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Japan, Lithuania, Germany etc.
9. Haplotype:
A lot in Finland, Zhejiang/China, Antioquia/Colombia….
10. Haplotype:
A lot among Ecuador (Waorani), Zhejiang/China, Argentina (Pilaga), Yamaguchi/Japan, Malaysia (Han Chinese)…
11. Haplotype (Y-DNA-N3a1, now ISOGG; N1c1a):
28 hits in Finland, 8 Estonia, 8 Sweden, 5 Norway…
12. Haplotype (Y-DNA-N3a1):
Germany, Finland, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Germany…



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hukumari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 21:42
Originally posted by Sarmat12 Sarmat12 wrote:

However, I wouldn't call it "Siberian-Mongolian heritage."
Siberia is a very vague term. Mongolian is a relatively new notion only about 1000 years old. I don't think there is any Mongolian heritage in America
 Perhaps it's better to say "proto Uralo-Siberian and Proto Altaic Heritage in Americas." It's just very likely that Ameridians, Uralo-Siberians and Altaics originate from the common ancestors.

Your expression "proto Uralo-Siberian” in reality means that the Siberian tribes couldn’t leave for the American Continent before 4000 BC.

Proto-Uralic is the hypothetical language ancestral to the Uralic language family, which includes Finno-Ugric and Samoyedic.
The language was originally spoken in a small area in about 4000 BCE, and expanded to give differentiated protolanguages. The exact location of the area or “Urheimat” is not known, but the Ural Mountains are usually assumed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Uralic

Anyway, IMO Ural Mountains is absolutely a wrong hypothesis for Proto-Uralic.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2008 at 20:38
Infonor homepage: http://infonor.dk/ RAIPON homepage: http://www.raipon.org/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2008 at 04:58
Great job! So there were some back migrations as well.
With respect to the coastal route early settler used to walk from Alaska to South America, it is too bad most of the path is today under sea level. That will make to find archaelogical evidence very hard.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 15:17
Comparing Macro-Altaic and Native American languages

www.aainst.co.kr/?module=file&act=procFileDownload&file_srl=311&sid=6cbfa02ade2aa6c6d46f99abaf08c700

The article describes there being some similarities between Altaic and Native American languages of the West coasts of North and the North of South America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whalebreath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 03:53
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

.....With respect to the coastal route early settler used to walk from Alaska to South America, it is too bad most of the path is today under sea level. That will make to find archaelogical evidence very hard.

My friend-they didn't walk they sailed or paddled, the coast of British Columbia is a very rough place with towering rock faces, beaches are few and far between much like Patagonia.

 As to finding traces of the earliest inhabitants work has been done here in the Queen Charlotte Islands, basically guessing where ancient villages would have been at now sunken river mouths.

Dredges have been sent down and brought up with artifacts identified as belonging to ancestors of today's Haida culture.Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2009 at 10:58
I vote for paddled at such early time in the development of civilization. And yes, it is very likely people paddled passing some of the obstacles there in North America. In South America, though, there is the conviction people came walking along the coast, because there are evidence early settlers were nomads that had a fishing lifestyle.
It is great what you tell us about the studies at Queen Charlotte Island. Do you have more detailed information?
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2009 at 12:21
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
 
The dominant theories say the ancestors of the Amerindians crossed from Siberia to Alaska some 15.000 years ago, and spread throughout the Americas.
 
Now, what it is interesting is that still today you can find cultural similarities between peoples at both sides of the Bering Strait. I have found similarities all over the Americas, particularly in shamanism and arts.
 
Totem Poles
 
Seattle:
 
 
Alaska: Tlingit
 
Ainu
 
 
 
 
 
Hi .. pinguin.
 
Another old interesting thread of yours !
 
There is a definite Siberian-connection between America's indigenous peoples & Asia's foremost northern region.China's Heilongjiang province ( 黑龍江 =  Amur River ) has some of world's best native totems.The proto-Siberian Tungusic people like the Manchu still practice rituals of shamanism today.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 03:31

Quite interesting. Do you have pictures of those totem poles?

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 04:33
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Quite interesting. Do you have pictures of those totem poles?

I, too, find this fascinating and after doing a little investigation on the Ainu (a native group from Sakhalin Island, part of the Japanese archipelago) there are many other apparent similarities. Even the dress is very similar to the native groups in BC/Alaska. I found some other Ainu totems:

I have no idea how 'authentic' these are or whether they have not been influenced by Haida totems, but they do have a unique style that is a little different. I think the middle one is probably an imitation of Haida styles, although it is not an exact imitation.

There is some of the bizarre Kennewick Man stuff here, but there are also some interesting observations here:

http://www.japanfocus.org/products/details/2589



Edited by edgewaters - 01-Mar-2009 at 04:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 05:03
A Mapuche totem Pole, Just in case you haven't chek them out in other threads:
 
Now, I can assure you these figures are authentic. They are the archetype of the man and the woman; part of the Mapuche cosmology. These poles are used to mark tumbs.
 
 
 


Edited by Northman - 05-Nov-2013 at 14:42
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 05:28

We have to be careful about assuming connections, though.

Totem poles are basically just stelae in wood, and could easily have been thought of by different peoples independantly. The Maori also carved totems:

There is even some thought that there may have been totem poles in ancient European cultures, most recently among pagan Poles and Lithuanians (called "Rodnidze"). The ancient Zimbabwean civilization may have used totems (called "mitupo") and we also know of "Asherah poles" from the Canaanite civilization of the ancient Middle East.



Edited by edgewaters - 01-Mar-2009 at 05:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2009 at 11:33
Interesting. That Maori totem pole looks like a Easter Island's moai.
 
 
 
 
Indeed. But the style of the totem poles made by East Asians like Ainus and by North-West Amerindians from Seattle to Alaska seem so similar to be just a coincidence.


Edited by pinguin - 01-Mar-2009 at 11:36
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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