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Forum LockedMinoan civilization originated in Anatolia!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Minoan civilization originated in Anatolia!
    Posted: 24-Jun-2009 at 20:27
Originally posted by Flipper

Yes, ofcourse.
I'm not against your theory or something. I'm rather excited that someone spends a lot of time for such an issue. Geographically as you said, i don't find it impossible at all. I mean IE speaking people and Caucasians are very close. Theoretically, once upon a time they lived side by side.

However, how does you look upon the fact that the research shows origins from Anatolia? I mean, Etruscans came from Anatolia as well but did not speak an anatolian language. How would you put this up? That they were Caucasian speakers that settled first in Anatolia (before the Hittites) and then moved to the Aegean?

I am sorry mate, but I am not involved in Etruscan (language study); also for good reason. As far I know, R. A. Brown wrote some 'crumbs' on Aegaean and Etruscan, like "abc [any word or aspect] found also in Etruscan"; without pretending a  links or  to formulate a theory.
I am  busy to find out a possible links between Hurro-Urartean, Pre-Greek and PNCauc.; I already set up some  regular rules among these languages, I think (if I am all right) is a good deal of.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2009 at 07:23
Yes, ofcourse.
I'm not against your theory or something. I'm rather excited that someone spends a lot of time for such an issue. Geographically as you said, i don't find it impossible at all. I mean IE speaking people and Caucasians are very close. Theoretically, once upon a time they lived side by side.

However, how does you look upon the fact that the research shows origins from Anatolia? I mean, Etruscans came from Anatolia as well but did not speak an anatolian language. How would you put this up? That they were Caucasian speakers that settled first in Anatolia (before the Hittites) and then moved to the Aegean?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2009 at 00:08
Well Flipper, as I red in DELG (dictionnaire Etymologique de la langue Grecque), also Beekes; there is not satisfactory etymologization for Greek arachne and Latin araneo [=spider].About "In IE languages the "phonological closeness" is such an easy task, so i don't understand why it should be so difficult to give similar examples in PNCauc." , I just cited Beekes:
"The word, limited to these two languages, is hardly IE (evt. *h2rh2-ek-). Connection with arkos is impossible if the word is IE, and for a substr. element also difficult. ".
In the way round, I agree with you about patima and more..... Mind ! IE (and Semitic) linguists sat on golden throne of 200 years of  internal and external reconstruction (mostly are IE themselves); meanwhile other languages and related families are in the dawn, with just half century or even less (of reconstruction), with  little or no documents. PNCaucasian is one of them. IF everything is all right, I would see a common root from Aegaean to Caspian sea through Anatolia plateau; at least, geographically,  it make sense. Do you ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2009 at 14:34
Originally posted by Pablito

Flipper, it is my (bad sense of ) humor, I just kidding.
Anyway, about your requested explanation, it is simple and easy. I connected αραχνη 'spider' with PNC (actually ProtoEasternCaucasian) verbal root *=irkhwVn]'to knit, to weave, to spin'; phonologically close each other, historic-semantically supported by  αραχνη tale.
The same semantic feature (but different root) is seen in Abkhazian denomination for 'spider', called 'the.tongue.net.weave'. In conclusion, the word 'spider' simply means 'the weaver (or similar than)'. It is also interesting that in Lat. araneo (*< aracneo) and Romance lang. , It. ragno, Esp. arana, Fr. araignee.
In synthesis:
1) Aeg-An & PNC(PEC) common root
Aegean-Anatolian                          PNCauc (PECauc)
'spider'                                         'to weave, knit, spin'


2) Abkhazian root (for Abkhazian only)
Abkhazian
the.tongue.net.weave = spider

That's why G.B. Hewitt e-mailing me with : nice story & nice equations !
Is it clear to you ?


What is clear is that the word spider in many languages is connected to "knit, spin" etc. Fine! However, there's no similarity to arachne and the PNCauc word. I mean i don't find it phonologically close, unless we go back 40000 years or something. In IE languages the "phonological closeness" is such an easy task, so i don't understand why it should be so difficult to give similar examples in PNCauc.

Why believe in the case of arachne that it is PNCauc while the PIE root is araKsn.

Edited by Flipper - 17-Jun-2009 at 14:38


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 16:53
Flipper, it is my (bad sense of ) humor, I just kidding.
Anyway, about your requested explanation, it is simple and easy. I connected αραχνη 'spider' with PNC (actually ProtoEasternCaucasian) verbal root *=irkhwVn]'to knit, to weave, to spin'; phonologically close each other, historic-semantically supported by  αραχνη tale.
The same semantic feature (but different root) is seen in Abkhazian denomination for 'spider', called 'the.tongue.net.weave'. In conclusion, the word 'spider' simply means 'the weaver (or similar than)'. It is also interesting that in Lat. araneo (*< aracneo) and Romance lang. , It. ragno, Esp. arana, Fr. araignee.
In synthesis:
1) Aeg-An & PNC(PEC) common root
Aegean-Anatolian                          PNCauc (PECauc)
'spider'                                         'to weave, knit, spin'


2) Abkhazian root (for Abkhazian only)
Abkhazian
the.tongue.net.weave = spider

That's why G.B. Hewitt e-mailing me with : nice story & nice equations !
Is it clear to you ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 16:33
Pablito, I have nothing against theories well-argued. Though I disagree in some small details, I largely accepted Beekes' paper as a starting point. Many of your hyptheses may be nice or attractive, my objection, however, is that they are not really proving the case.
 
And if you can make good points about pre-Greek language(s), Linear A language, etc. I certainly wouldn't want you to stop writing, on the contrary Wink
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 12:02
Pablito, there's no suspicion of blaming or so. Don't worry at all about that. Personally i'm not offended about anything here. It's just a discussion. Smile

Moreover, i don't think Chibuldios want to make you stop writing or so. His criticism is for a good cause not just to argue about anything or try to win a retoric battle.

Now, can you explain to me what is so obvious about arachne and and abyzkataha?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 11:44
Flipper, I do not blame you (also Chibuldios).
About Aegean-Anatolian civilization and possible link with Cauc. Languages, it particularly attracted me a PNCauc verbal root *=irx:wVn [read : *=irkhwVn]'to knit, to weave, to spin' and that it remind me the competition between (Madame or Lady) Athena and αραχνη, for full story cf. Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Mythica or any other source.
Phonologically, the reconstructed Cauc. root is partly metathized and it has *=i-, it shall be explained by grammar (toooooo looooooong for posting in this Forum); so, a common root in * rVkhn ~ * rkhVn is possible. Semantically it is very reliable.
When I shown to George B, Hewitt (Caucasologist at S.O.A.S University of London), his comment was : Nice story and nice equations!
You might be interested to know that 'spider' in Abkhaz is: a.byz.k'ata.ha = 'the.tongue.net.weave'.
Another hint is Linear A symbol for 'KU', as Beekes mentioned a Pre-Greek word in κυμινδις 'a type of bird'; so KU drawn as a bird it might be correspond to.
I now stopped to write in this Forum, otherwise Chibuldios write again " that will bring a bias".
P.S: V stands for Vowel(s)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 18:14
Pablito you are doing an honourable job, but i will agree with Chilbudios about more solid proof.

The fact that qasireu for example has no IE etymology doesn't mean pre-Greek is non-IE (And i'm not absolute on the thought that Minoans were speaking IE but could also speak something that cannot be attested). Some words are created from scratch localy. For example one of the most typical Greek words of our day "Malakas" LOL... in 2000-3000 years maybe, linguists won't be able to trace its root.

The same goes for qasireu...We know that both Phrygians and eteo-Cypriots used Wanax as a term, while none of those have been attested to use qasireu. What if that word was created because of the need to entitle the local leader, which was common amongst Greeks? What if that word has a lifetime of only 3500 years?

Another problem is the amount of words available in all IE languages. It is not easy to make parallels. It takes a lot of time. Some years ago i randomly read about the word "patima" (step) which was supposed to have no IE equivalent...Well just a month ago, while browsing some anatolian dictionaries i found out that "patas" means "foot" in Luwian, while "pato" in Greek means "I step" and "patas" means "you step". Meanwhile, some people probably still think "patima" is a pre-Greek word with no IE equivalent.

So there are other problematics that need to be tackled first. You saw the maps i posted. When so many pre-Greek toponyms are common/similar how would one dismiss the fact that Anatolian people are at least a part of the pre-Greek era?

Have you considered the possibility that in the Helladic area there might have been people living of different origins that could also include some Caucasian speakers or distant relatives of them?

I think that currently and with the data attested in our time, it would be very difficult to make an absolute statement that the Helladic area was inhabited only (or in majority) by Caucasian speakers. Meanwhile, it would be much more important to give reason to the possibility that there might have been as well such speakers living amongst the neolithic Helladic inhabitants.






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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 15:15
Pablito,
 
I think my main objection is one of methodology. You bring the example of IE family, but IE linguistic studies start from some relatively obvious and solid parallelisms. We know the word for "horse" in many IE languages and we trace it back to its presumed root and notice the sound changes. We know the words for "two" or "six", for "apple", for "mother" and "father", good semantic matches after thousands of years. The word forms in whatever IE language or reconstructed proto-language are usually explained in the smallest detail, and it's not only sounds, but also grammar, accents, anything linguistically conceivable. 
The early attestations are very important. The laryngeals were rather an exotic theoretical concept until they were confirmed by Anatolian languages. A large part of the current IE theoretical framework is supported by early attested IE languages such as Mycenaean Greek and Hittite.
 
Don't get me wrong, there are also words with notable semantic evolutions, whose meanings shifted a lot during thousands of years, but these latter words are studied based on some rules inferred from solid examples.
 
Coming back to your example, you have one Linear B word (qa-si-re-u) and a claim that the unetymologizable Greek words for which it's conceivable in an earlier stage of Greek an initial syllabe gwa-/gwe- have actually cognates in some Caucasian languages and thus pre-Greek and Caucasian languages have a common ancestor. This is not even remotely comparable with IE linguistics in terms of methodology, where some sound changes are attested by tens of secure words, sometimes with quasi-identical meanings (like exemplified above).
 
Glottochronology has little to do with your IE table which by the way is inaccurate (Pferd is no cognate, some forms/words are wrong). Anyway, generally the IE languages do not follow your "rule" of randomly switching between stops.
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 19-May-2009 at 15:38
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 07:47
Originally posted by Leonidas

Flipper didn't the southern Italian farmers come from Anatolia, i thought i read that in a  genetic paper somewhere.


I'm don't know about that. We know for sure that the cows that were probably transferred by the Etruscans to Italy are the same with some cows in Turkey. However, it's just that i'm not aware of what you said. I've heard that anatolians even reached Morocco.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 22:57
Sorry, Ancient Scripts (website)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 22:38

May it help you: go to Ancient Script (website) > A to Z > Linear B  (at the bottom end) > Minoan Writing Systems Homepage, with a Linear B glossary > (open the ) glossary, at p. 4 and that there is βασιλευς in original form, with several other words with same rules (as Chadwick explained).
Also, I am not surprised if γεφυρα belonging to the same "family". In both cases we have gw- > b, d (later on). Furthermore, both words has not IE-etymology (neither  Semitic ).
Even IE lang. follow up this rules; compare :
IE protoform                  Latin             Greek                 German   
* kwinkwe                      quinque        πεντα                 funf           'five'
* eqwo                          equus           ιππο                   Pfe-rde     'horse'
* qw                              qu          >    p               >      pf, f    
This is called 'basic concept in Glottochronology'.
Moreover, in ancient time, people did not wrote so often. In some cases, we have enough data (Modern greek < Byzantion < Classic Greek < Pre-classic); but, in most cases we are lack of some or even whole information(s). So, if γεφυρα is attested or not in Linear B, is not important; Mycenaean Greek did not wrote poems or something like that; in the other hand, Hesychius, Homer, and others give to us useful (etymologically  unexplained)  lexeme from Pre-Greek sources. Plus,  "The semantics are cheesy......" because may you expected for a perfect match even after 3-4.000 years.
Like
Lang. 1             Lang. 2                     Lang. 3                        Lang. 4
table               table                        table                           table
house             house                       house                          house
rabbit              rabbit, hare               rabbit                           rabbit
shoe                shoe                        shoe                              -
If you compare several languages, like IE family, you see the same word with light changes in meaning (also in pronunciation) due to historical development; a good example (despite dated) is C.D.Buck "A dictionary of selected synonyms in the principal Indo-European languages", very colourful (and is re-print every couple of years).
I think, we have more to understand how it was PNCauc. and Aegean-Anatolian common roots and how it worked out in phono- morpho- semantic changes.
P.S:For IPA transcription I rounded to the nearest sound, so * gwe:p'V , * e: is actually  a reconstructed long schwa by Starostin and V it stands for vowel.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 15:47
Originally posted by Pablito

Alleged ?
Beekes wrote on 5.6 (Velars/ labial/ dental: labio-velars. p. 18)"There is limited evidence for variation........". I pointed up to βεφυρα / γεφυρα / δεφυρα 'dyke, dam, mound' and I compared to PNCauc * gwe:p'V 'group, heap', it  clearly goes to a common protofrom  in * gwe(:)p'V, where *gw- >  β- / δ-; the same feature is seen in βασιλευς, found it in Mycenaean tablets as gwa-si-re-u, once again a Circassian form gwasa / gwasha 'princess' it  show to us that original forma in gw-; identical to Chadwick explanation (on Linear B inscr.):"

"The transcription ka, ke, ki, ko, ku is really a shorthand for any velar stop followed by this vowels Greek has three velar stops, k, kh and g (written Κ, Χ and Γ in the later Greek alphabet), and the reader has to choose for himself which value to give the sign in any word. Likewise pa, pe, pi, etc. can stand for p, ph or b. But the series ta, te, ti, etc. stands only for t- or th-, and there is a separate series da, de, di, etc. for d-.

The letter q in trascription must be understood as kw [..], khw [..] and gw [..]. All of these sounds were lost before the classical period, when they were replaced according to context by t or p, th or ph, and d or b ".

So, sinthetically we have:

Pre-Greek                                PNCauc

γεφυρα                          * gwe:p'V

gwa-si-re-u                     gwasa / gwasha (Circassian)

gw-                               gw-

Greek developed form in β- /δ-.

No offense, but I find this utterly unconvinging. The semantics are cheesy and the parallelism of the reconstructed forms even more so, the only certain thing I find in both these columns is the first syllabe (gwa-, gwe-). Moreover for the second term I see no evidence the oldest form has gwe- (no Linear B word for it).



Edited by Chilbudios - 19-May-2009 at 08:14
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 14:06
Chibuldios wrote: "Can you clarify these alleged parallels between pre-Greek and North-Caucasian languages?"
Alleged ?
Beekes wrote on 5.6 (Velars/ labial/ dental: labio-velars. p. 18)"There is limited evidence for variation........". I pointed up to βεφυρα / γεφυρα / δεφυρα 'dyke, dam, mound' and I compared to PNCauc * gwe:p'V 'group, heap', it  clearly goes to a common protofrom  in * gwe(:)p'V, where *gw- >  β- / δ-; the same feature is seen in βασιλευς, found it in Mycenaean tablets as gwa-si-re-u, once again a Circassian form gwasa / gwasha 'princess' it  show to us that original forma in gw-; identical to Chadwick explanation (on Linear B inscr.):" < ="-" ="text/; =utf-8"> < name="GENERATOR" ="Office.org 2.4 Linux"> < ="text/">

"The transcription ka, ke, ki, ko, ku is really a shorthand for any velar stop followed by this vowels Greek has three velar stops, k, kh and g (written Κ, Χ and Γ in the later Greek alphabet), and the reader has to choose for himself which value to give the sign in any word. Likewise pa, pe, pi, etc. can stand for p, ph or b. But the series ta, te, ti, etc. stands only for t- or th-, and there is a separate series da, de, di, etc. for d-.

The letter q in trascription must be understood as kw [..], khw [..] and gw [..]. All of these sounds were lost before the classical period, when they were replaced according to context by t or p, th or ph, and d or b ".

So, sinthetically we have:

Pre-Greek                                PNCauc

γεφυρα                          * gwe:p'V

gwa-si-re-u                     gwasa / gwasha (Circassian)

gw-                               gw-

Greek developed form in β- /δ-.

In Nokolaev-Starostin's PNCauc reconstruction, there is some doubt on  *kheri 'bark, skin' that " < ="-" ="text/; =utf-8"> < name="GENERATOR" ="Office.org 2.4 Linux"> < ="text/"> perhaps the Lak. form suggests rather something like * khewri, in which case the -i- reflex would be understandable), the correspondences are regular."; the Pre-Greek form κωρυκος '[leathern sack or] wallet for provisions, leathern sack hung up for punching’, leathern quiver, scrotum’ since the leather is made out of animals skin; in this case, Starostin's recostruction must be revised in * khwVrV ( or similar than), due to Pre-Greek evidence.

About palatal- labial- ization, Beekes at  B point (from p. 5 to 24) is not different from Martin Haspelamath (A grammar of Lezgian) < ="-" ="text/; =utf-8"> < name="GENERATOR" ="Office.org 2.4 Linux"> < ="text/">

“When the vowel of the final syllable of a word is not rounded, a distinctively labialized obstruent may occur in word-final position [..].

But contrary to what the spelling suggests, the labialization is not in fact preserved in the pronunciation of many speakers. However, the labialization is not simply lost, but rather metathesized and transferred to the syllable-initial consonant. Thus, ťekw is in fact pronounced

['w], cegw is in fact pronounced [tsweg], and tarkw is in fact pronounced [twarkh]. Some speakers even transfer the labialization to consonants that can not be phonemically labialized, so that regw is pronounced [weq], although there is no phoneme /rw/. Another common variant of the labialization of the vowel, so that reğw and ťekw are pronounced [roeq] and [t'oekh]. Since ther is no orthoepic norm, it is diffcult to distinguish between dialect differences, individual diffeerences, and spelling pronunciations.

There is one circumstance under which the methatesis of word-final labialization is reflected in the spelling: in syllables whose initial consonant is instinctively labialized as well [..]. Of course, the effect of the metathesis is only a delabialization of the final consonant here”.


Flipper; did you notice anything good in your maps? At a glance I saw that everything comes from East to West and only in MittelEurope it rounded to Danubian and Balkanian area. Plus, the beginning is from Caucasus-Anatolian-Levantine (Syria) area. exactly where Hurrian(and Urartian) and North Cauc. people lived. I also really appreciate your post ("As for your point of view it's definetely respected. It's not somekind of pseudoscience but a work worth many hours. "). In my research paper I found several common roots between PNCauc  and Pre-Greek pottery names.

I hope this brief make it more clear to.

< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8"> < name="GENERATOR" ="Office.org 2.4 Linux"> < ="text/">

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 12:59
Flipper didn't the southern Italian farmers come from Anatolia, i thought i read that in a  genetic paper somewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 00:22
Also, i saw the name Pitnissos...

Pytna is the cretan equivalent for "rock" or "stone" (Ιεράπυτνα was renamed to Ιεράπετρα meaning sacred rock) . I wonder if we have any anatolian word Pitn- attested with a meaning. Note that the variety of the word for "rock" in Greek is vast, e.g πέτρα, πύτνα, ερίπνα, λίθος, λευς, λάας, λαϊγξ, λύμαξ, βράχος, στίον, ψάφος, ψαφιγξ, ψιλάς, χέρμας and probably others i have missed...




Edited by Flipper - 18-May-2009 at 00:24


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 23:35
Sorry for being absent for a while. I will contribute with 2 maps you might find interesting.












First, have a look on the number of -ssos -ssa placenames in Anatolia. Obeserve that there are even two placenames called Larissa, just like in Thessaly. Parnassus (Luw. 'house') like Parnassos in central Greece, Lymessos like Lemessos in Cyprus, etc...

Furthermore, remember that even the Phrygians, that did not come in close contact with the prehistoric Helladic populations, have personal and place names endings in -ssos and -ssa (e.g Tekmissa, Premnessos).


A recent research about Strophilas, a neolithic settlement on Andros island, shows that a spreading of farming economy started first from Anatolia to Crete and Southern Greece. (Chr. A. TELEVANTOU, A Colloquium on the Prehistory of the Cyclades, 2004 University of Cambridge)



Edited by Flipper - 18-May-2009 at 00:07


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2009 at 20:04
Originally posted by Pablito

Now, Beekes does not explain some phonological feature of Pre-Greek and Nikolav-Starostin on PNCauc languages; ironically, Pre-Greek gave solution for PNCauc. languages and viceversa; e.g: if *-r- appear only in some North Cauc.,  languages, the ancient form is attested in Pre-Greek; conversely, if Beekes suspect about an original * qw in Pre-Greek, that is attested in North Cauc. Languages. (Is it clear to you ?).
Can you clarify these alleged parallels between pre-Greek and North-Caucasian languages?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2009 at 17:15
Chibuldios,  do not worry, we look at the same edition.
Palmer wrote about some phonological feature of Pre-Greek and, indeed, he was quite convinced on Luwian origin of that language. Let me in turn, if Pre-Greek was similar to Luwian, and Luwian itself was an Anatolian-IE language, that mean Pre Greek is an IE language; so, in this way, the problem is solved........I wash my hands and everything is finish !
Meanwhile "I found only a parallel, not a conclusion" is true, I take it Palmer's notation as a "young sprout; an idea".
Even Beekes did not make a comparison (In Beekes I found nothing about Caucasian languages ), but the PDF it was really helpful to me.
As we know, any language it shall be  studied from two point of view: synchronically and diachronically.
Beekes and Brown made a deep investigation into synchro-way; meanwhile my research paper is in diachro-way.
Now, Beekes does not explain some phonological feature of Pre-Greek and Nikolav-Starostin on PNCauc languages; ironically, Pre-Greek gave solution for PNCauc. languages and viceversa; e.g: if *-r- appear only in some North Cauc.,  languages, the ancient form is attested in Pre-Greek; conversely, if Beekes suspect about an original * qw in Pre-Greek, that is attested in North Cauc. Languages. (Is it clear to you ?).
Internal and external phono- morpho-logicaly and semantic evidence proven each other correct.
That's why I wrote "All we come along at the same conclusion". In somehow, I confirm what Brown and Beekes (and Palmer) wrote previously.
Also Hurro-Urartian (and probably Hattic) gave me some database and further evidence.
Mind ! I do not rush, I want to see all words does it fit properly in phono-morpho-semantic sense to perform a possible Linear A decipherment.
Last, but no least; my research paper is continuosly supervised from several Universities.


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