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    Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 19:50
By the way this battle was the battle of Kerestes(Haçova)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 19:49
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Beylerbeyi wrote:

Thanks for the useful info, Evrenos.

Quote As we can see the number increased in years , maybe the rising number also could demonstrate the falling quality but I am not so sure.

I think after the wars with Austria (ended in 1606) total number of cavalry in the army was reduced greatly, so the number of the timarli went down and infantry went up, janissaries and other gunpowder infantry as the Ottomans adapted to the new Western warfare. Probably the household cavalry increased along with the Janisarries. The quality naturally went down. 

Also after 1600,  the country became less centralised, which means that local lords gained power and incorporated individual timars.
In 1596 Ottomans occupied Eger and when they were returning home their way was cut down by Habsburgs. Two army set against and wait for to fight. The first 2 days were clashs between the vanguard and in the 3rd day the ottoman army start to lost its cohesion and the imperial army started to penetrate through the encampment. The sipahis were one of the first who flee from the field. While the habsburgs were ravaging the ottoman camp Cağaloglu Sinan Pasa(The Cigalla`s from Genoa) attacked the habsburgs and win the war for the ottomans. Cağaloğlu Sinan Pasa disbanded a lot of sipahi after this battle and they were the major population who consisted the Celalis. This was the first splitting of sipahis from the state and their official decrease of importance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 16:45
Thanks for the useful info, Evrenos.

Quote As we can see the number increased in years , maybe the rising number also could demonstrate the falling quality but I am not so sure.

I think after the wars with Austria (ended in 1606) total number of cavalry in the army was reduced greatly, so the number of the timarli went down and infantry went up, janissaries and other gunpowder infantry as the Ottomans adapted to the new Western warfare. Probably the household cavalry increased along with the Janisarries. The quality naturally went down. 

Also after 1600,  the country became less centralised, which means that local lords gained power and incorporated individual timars.
Always try to be as radical as reality itself. - Lenin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 19:02
The provincial sipahis were different in their origin. The other name was tımarlı Sipahi they were the backbone of the army. They formed the wings of the army.They were grouped as Anatolian and Rumelia. The Anatolian corps were mainly previous fief holders and they had managed to keep it. They were accepted to the ottoman army. With the imperial domination kapıkulus had tımars also, even noncombatant multezims were tımar holders. Initially Rumeli sipahis were mainly natives . Constantine Dejanovic and Marko Kraljevic were tımar holders at Rumelia and they died in 1395 for ottomans in Wallachia. Approximately the christian sipahis consisted 30% of sipahis at Rumelia in the mid 15th century. However most of them accepted Islam and with the 16th century no christian sipahi were left. The total sipahi numbers at a campaign in the mid 16th century was between 30-40000. The most of them were equipped with pistols through the late 16th century. Their number and importance were decreased in the 17th century, infantry were know the primary forces  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 18:46
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

 
I agree BTW who said that silk is better than Plate? (Let me at him I'll tear him a new one)  
 
 
Originally posted by gezgin gezgin wrote:

Sipahis got dressed heavy silk armours.Silk armour is stronger than metal armours.Also silk gives confort activity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 17:23
Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:

 
My point is that silk armour wasn't better than metal one. I've mentioned winged hussars only to show you experience of battles, which prove my opinion.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I agree BTW who said that silk is better than Plate? (Let me at him I'll tear him a new one)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 10:23
Hello Ataman
 
You are right. There were unarmored sipahis. Probably they were the provincial ones. As I mentioned before there were sipahi retainers(cebellü), they were raw recruits, all provincial sipahis were obligated to bring this retainers to the army. The number of these retainers were paralel with the extent of the timar.The total number of these provincial soldiers exceeded 100000 and most of their equipment must be inadequate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 07:38
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

BTW this thread is about Spahis not Hussars
 
My point is that silk armour wasn't better than metal one. I've mentioned winged hussars only to show you experience of battles, which prove my opinion.
 
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi Evrenosgazi wrote:

As we can see the number increased in years , maybe the rising number also could demonstrate the falling quality but I am not so sure. 
 
It is possible. Anyway, describing the battle of Chocim Potocki many times states that Ottomans (spahis) don't wear armours. There are also desriptions of 'duels' between hussars and spahis. Hussars always wore armours, while spahis didn't use any metal armor.


Edited by ataman - 11-Jan-2009 at 07:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 23:02
The sipahis differs in quality. The kapıkulu sipahis(altı bölük halkı) had 6 titles: Silahdar(Arm bearers), Sipahi oğlanları(Sipahi sons), left and right garips(poor foreigners), left and right ulufeci(salaried men). The silahdars were prior sultan bodyguards than sipahi sons were in charge to protect sultans. As I mentioned before they were elite soldiers and their prestige were higher than jannisaries.
 
Their equipments were afforded by the state so their armaments were better than the provincial troops. When we look to the numbers;
 
1527   total number 5088
1574   total number 5957
1597   total number 17000
1609   total number 20869
1679   total number 14070(From Rhoads Murphey "Ottoman Warfare"
 
As we can see the number increased in years , maybe the rising number also could demonstrate the falling quality but I am not so sure. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 16:19
The point of the lance was to break up the formation a twenty four foot lance isn't much use 1-on-1 that is why hussars carried back up weapons
 
BTW this thread is about Spahis not Hussars
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 16:18
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi Evrenosgazi wrote:

This is more accurate but again let us think the lance penetrated to a man, how could the rider use its lance when it is inside the body of a man?(even let us think it is out of the body)
 
Lancer couldn't use his lance more than once. When the lance was in enemy's body, lancer couldn't change direction of the lance. The lance either pierced everything in front of its tip or it broke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 11:48
Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:

Originally posted by Evrenosgazi Evrenosgazi wrote:

İt really seems unbelieveable, because with the impact of the lance ,the lancer will also loose its stability with the first clash(momentum: speed*weight, single arm power against the clash).But with the powerful clash the formation of their opponents would crack. Maybe 2 soldier at once could be but 3-4 is impossible
 
Here is the secret of the hussar manner of wielding the lance:
Look at the second picture in the article. It is not the hussar's arm which has to endure the impact. It is the hussar's saddle where the impact is transfered.
There are even accouts that hussar lances were able to pierce an armour in this way.
 
When hussars attacked unarmoured cavalrymen, they aimed enemy navels. Potocki describes that hussar lances at Chocim 1621 struck livers. This part of the body is very easy to penetrate.
This is more accurate but again let us think the lance penetrated to a man, how could the rider use its lance when it is inside the body of a man?(even let us think it is out of the body)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2009 at 08:45
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi Evrenosgazi wrote:

İt really seems unbelieveable, because with the impact of the lance ,the lancer will also loose its stability with the first clash(momentum: speed*weight, single arm power against the clash).But with the powerful clash the formation of their opponents would crack. Maybe 2 soldier at once could be but 3-4 is impossible
 
Here is the secret of the hussar manner of wielding the lance:
Look at the second picture in the article. It is not the hussar's arm which has to endure the impact. It is the hussar's saddle where the impact is transfered.
There are even accouts that hussar lances were able to pierce an armour in this way.
 
When hussars attacked unarmoured cavalrymen, they aimed enemy navels. Potocki describes that hussar lances at Chocim 1621 struck livers. This part of the body is very easy to penetrate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 23:13
Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:

Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

those are only four sources
 
5 sources from 4 battles
 
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

and from a time period of 60 years, you said you had "too many" and from "different times"...
 
62 years between the battle of Vienna and the battle of Chocim is 'the same time' in your opinion?
I've given you primary sources written by members of the battles, by commanders of hussars and commander of an army. Is it not enough? Ok, so look at the list of sources only to the battle of Chocim 1621:
1. Potocki (3 Ottomans pierced at once)
2. Auxent (3 - 4 Ottomans pierced at once)
3. Rudomina (3 - 4 Ottomans pierced at once)
4. Marchocki (2 Ottomans pierced at once)
5. Sobieski (3 Ottomans pierced at once)
6. Lubomirski (2-3 Ottomans pierced at once)
İt really seems unbelieveable, because with the impact of the lance ,the lancer will also loose its stability with the first clash(momentum: speed*weight, single arm power against the clash).But with the powerful clash the formation of their opponents would crack. Maybe 2 soldier at once could be but 3-4 is impossible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 19:59
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

those are only four sources
 
5 sources from 4 battles
 
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

and from a time period of 60 years, you said you had "too many" and from "different times"...
 
62 years between the battle of Vienna and the battle of Chocim is 'the same time' in your opinion?
I've given you primary sources written by members of the battles, by commanders of hussars and commander of an army. Is it not enough? Ok, so look at the list of sources only to the battle of Chocim 1621:
1. Potocki (3 Ottomans pierced at once)
2. Auxent (3 - 4 Ottomans pierced at once)
3. Rudomina (3 - 4 Ottomans pierced at once)
4. Marchocki (2 Ottomans pierced at once)
5. Sobieski (3 Ottomans pierced at once)
6. Lubomirski (2-3 Ottomans pierced at once)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 19:42
those are only four sources and from a time period of 60 years, you said you had "too many" and from "different times"...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 19:26
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

i have read a lot of such primary sourcesabout the use of the lance in ww1 (which doesn't break) and so far there was only one mention where one body was completely impaled and most of the time the lance did but only light wounds despite many stabs.
 
There is one huge difference between WW1 and 17th c. The manner of using long hussar lance in 17th c. was different than the manner of using short lance in 20th c. 
 
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

those modern soruces are by far more reliable.
 
Because...?
 
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

but if you think you have so many sources that proove the contrary then give me those sources.
 
Ok, just a couple of examples:
1. The battle of Chocim 1621 - relation of hussar rotemaster (I hope it's a good translation :)) Rudomina. Rudomina commanded his unit in this charge. Auxent (the eyewitness of this battle). They both wrote about 3-4 Ottomans pierced by single blows of hussar lances.
2. The battle of Połonka 1660 (vs Russians) - grand Lithuanian hetman (the main commander) Sapieha. He commanded Lithuanian army in this battle. He wrote to the king about 6 Russian infantrymen pierced by hussar lance.
3. The battle of Cudnów 1660 (vs Russians and Cossakcs) - colonel of Polish cavalry and member of the battle Leszczyński (5 Russians pierced by hussar lance)
4. The battle of Vienna 1683 - hussar comrade Kochowski (2-3 Ottomans pierced by hussar lances)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 19:09
i have read a lot of such primary sourcesabout the use of the lance in ww1 (which doesn't break) and so far there was only one mention where one body was completely impaled and most of the time the lance did but only light wounds despite many stabs. those modern soruces are by far more reliable. but if you think you have so many sources that proove the contrary then give me those sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 19:06
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

the lance used by the Polish Hussaria was hollow wood, so it would break on impact, otherwise it would unhorse the Hussar because of the velocity of the impact. so i cannot seriously believe this at all for the reasons stated.
 
Human body, unprotected by metal armor is like a butter for a lance.
Anyway, there are too many sources, written by too many soldiers and eyewitness, from different times and different battles to ignore all of them.


Edited by ataman - 08-Jan-2009 at 19:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 19:00
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Beylerbeyi wrote:

You can't change the heading of the lance anymore.
 
I agree
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Beylerbeyi wrote:

So you'd have to impale everyone in one strike. Now, if you are charging onto infantry in close formation, it may be possible to impale a few people.
 
I agree
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Beylerbeyi wrote:

On the other hand, if you are charging cavalry, they must be unarmoured, practically touching each other, and you should charge them perfectly from the side,
 
And it could have happened at Chocim, because hussars charged the wing of Ottoman cavalry.
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Beylerbeyi wrote:

and even then the horses take much more space than men. In a stretch, I can believe two horsemen getting impaled, but four? I don't think so. 
 
If spahis rode knee to knee it was possible. 4 cavalrymen occupied about 4 m side by side, while hussar lances were even 21 feet long in that time.


Edited by ataman - 08-Jan-2009 at 19:09
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