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    Posted: 11-May-2007 at 09:42
Today, persia is officialy known as Iran, which in persian means 'land of aryans". its known that in ancient times persians had typical aryan complexion (and here i am assuming that typical aryan complexion is one of blond hair and blue eyes, and fair skin). today, however, irans population have a much different complexion. dark hair, light brown skin, and brown eyes.
 
my question is this: while we know the complexion of the persian people has changed over the last 2000-3000 years, is this because of evolution or because of different ethnicities migrating and mixing with persian people? are the persians of today genetically arabic/turkic with persian culture?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2007 at 10:03
While there are and probably always have been people of light complexion in Iran, the overall complexion has not changed dramatically.  Ancient Roman and Greek sources confirm this, as do well preserved Sassanid mosaics and various Greco Roman artworks. 

Edited by Zagros - 11-May-2007 at 10:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2007 at 16:09
I admire your patience.
Arrrgh!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2007 at 19:13
I admire Zagros' patience too, not only in this thread but in many other threads which were obviously started with some provocative intentions.

Any way,
Iran has always been called ''Iran'' by the Iranians.
Considering that Iranics originated in the North of the Caspian sea (Andronovo culture) , and that the first ''Iran '' was located between the Caspian sea and the Aral sea, It is easy to see that the original Iranic peoples must have been Caucasoids of generally lighter complexion than the present day citizens of Iran. When the Iranics came to the Iranian plateau, It must not have been empty and there must have been various local peoples (many of whom probably Semitic) who mixed with the coming Iranics, hence the first mixing and adoption (of Iranic languages and cultures) must have happened long before the Persians became prominent and built an Empire.
Also geographically, the Iranian plateau is a crossroad of peoples and cultures. Numerous invasions, migrations or mixing with other peoples have happened throughout history such as the Arabs' invasion/the spread of Islam , Mongoloid admixtures due to the Turkic migrations/Mongolian invasions, Trading with the Indian subcontinent and East Africa.....etc. These have all affected the gene pool of the present day citizens of Iran in which you can easily find Blonde or red haired people and very dark Indian or African looking people even within the members of a same family.


Edited by omshanti - 12-May-2007 at 01:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2007 at 22:08
Is there any recorded Slavic migrations to Iran ?

I dont think there is, but if there is a Nordic element in the Iranians it may have come that way. I dont think Iranians were ever a bunch of Swedes because i think the amount of Blondism in Europeans came from more Northern Nordic tribes moving South an then South again..

Ive seen Iranians with Blue an Green eyes, perhaps the Blues n Greens could have been more common in the past but as for Blonde hair Blue eyed Nordics naahhh i dont reckon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2007 at 22:23
Originally posted by think think wrote:

Is there any recorded Slavic migrations to Iran ?

I dont think there is, but if there is a Nordic element in the Iranians it may have come that way. I dont think Iranians were ever a bunch of Swedes because i think the amount of Blondism in Europeans came from more Northern Nordic tribes moving South an then South again..

Ive seen Iranians with Blue an Green eyes, perhaps the Blues n Greens could have been more common in the past but as for Blonde hair Blue eyed Nordics naahhh i dont reckon.
since when does the nordic types become the source for fair complexions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2007 at 22:51
I have seen a picture from my cousin's music class, where he learned to play the tonbak like a pro - about half of the kids in the picture had flaxen blond hair, there were about ten of them.  And I also bought some pirate CDs in the mountains from a Kurdish smuggler and his brother both of whom had blond hair and blue eyes. One of my other cousin's (I have about 40) wife has red hair and my mother's mother had blonde hair.  I also have one uncle who shares both paternal and maternal features with his siblings whose skin is very dark, his siblings used to tease him that their mother had found him in a sack of charcoal. Which was not very nice.
 
Anyway, we Iranians are fully aware of the fallacies and deliberate misinterpretation of our history and lineage, something we see little importance in, at least most of us.


Edited by Zagros - 11-May-2007 at 22:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 02:16
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I have seen a picture from my cousin's music class, where he learned to play the tonbak like a pro - about half of the kids in the picture had flaxen blond hair, there were about ten of them.  And I also bought some pirate CDs in the mountains from a Kurdish smuggler and his brother both of whom had blond hair and blue eyes. One of my other cousin's (I have about 40) wife has red hair and my mother's mother had blonde hair.  I also have one uncle who shares both paternal and maternal features with his siblings whose skin is very dark, his siblings used to tease him that their mother had found him in a sack of charcoal. Which was not very nice.

My Iranian Father had red hair and green eyes. In fact when ever I show his pictures to my Irish wife, she always says that he could easily pass as an Irish. Also my Japanese mother used to say that at first when she met my father, she thought that he was Russian.
Two of my father's brothers and his mother had the same coluoring as him and one of his sisters was blonde. On the other hand one of the brothers was really dark like an Indian person and they allways called him ''siyah sukhteh (black and burned)''.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Anyway, we Iranians are fully aware of the fallacies and deliberate misinterpretation of our history and lineage, something we see little importance in, at least most of us.
I completely agree, although being half Japanese and not having lived in Iran for so long, I am not sure if I can consider myself Iranian enough to be included in the ''we Iranians'' part, which reminds me of that you tube videoclip about the Albino South African girl that Khoisan-kid posted in his ''true origin'' thread. The clip was about the internal conflicts that the girl had for being an Albino. She could not feel ''black enough'' nor ''white enough'' and always considered herself as an outsider. It was sad that the clip about internal racial conflicts was used in that way by the poster. Any way sorry for going off-topic.

Edited by omshanti - 12-May-2007 at 05:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 06:07
Originally posted by omshanti omshanti wrote:

I admire Zagros' patience too, not only in this thread but in many other threads which were obviously started with some provocative intentions.

 
there are NO provocative intentions in this thread. if you have interpreted it that way then you are wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 06:16
I wouldn't say its provocative, just lame and bloody tedious.

If the search function worked, you'd see a million threads of the "Did the ancient Persian Aryans eat saurkraut" variety.
Arrrgh!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 07:24
It's annoying and tedious, why does it even matter enough to merit a thread?  It's like having your identity and heritage questioned and denied; oh the ancient Persians/Iranians were Nordic but modern ones are not therefore your history r belong to us because we look more like what we make your ancestors out to be.  At least that's the impression I get, and in answer to such nonsense I suggest reading Xenophon's Cyropaedia and the writings of Ammanus Marcellinus for descriptions of Persians that would still be applicable today to a large amount, if not the majority, of the population.
 
One can also examine the depiction, which I posted the other day in another thread, of the battle of Issus created some 13 years after the event, it shows Persians being pursued by Alexander.  None resemble Northern Europeans in terms of complexion.
 
My guess is that the original Persian tribes which arrived in Iran did resemble more what you would describe as Europeans but they arrived onto a plateau already inhabited by highly civilised people of regional appearance such as the Elamites and Hurrians, neither of whom were semitic btw and that mixing undoubtedly occured with these people came under Iranic dominion.  But again, this is only MY opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 08:21
the reason i started this thread was because i was having an argument with a non-persian friend of mine who believes that the fact the persian complexion has changed since ancient times(though it seems here that it isnt) is due to evolution. i doubted him because i thought evolution could not take place so quickly and we entered an argument over it which we have not since resolved. so i entered the topic into this forum to find out.
i am a turk of turkey, and i frequently come accross claims that turks of turkey are more related to greeks then turks, so i am sure i am the last person who would question the heritage of a poulation.
 
i really didnt mean to offend or annoy anyone, i was just curious as to the reason behind this. so far as i am concerned, if one culturally and politically identifies them as a persian/turk/greek etc. and behaves as such then they are one. but thats not an element of this thread, i just wanted to deduce the reason behind the supposed change in appearance.
 
by the way, what do tajiks look like?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 08:57
hi kurt I believe your intention was good, its just this is one of those recycled themes and being new you might not know how many times we have seen this raised. This and blue eyed indians.

Originally posted by kurt kurt wrote:

the reason i started this thread was because i was having an argument with a non-persian friend of mine who believes that the fact the persian complexion has changed since ancient times(though it seems here that it isnt) is due to evolution. i doubted him because i thought evolution could not take place so quickly and we entered an argument over it which we have not since resolved. so i entered the topic into this forum to find out.
well I think your right, another urban myth is that Greeks were once blonds and since the turks we have become darker. Its all rubbish, we, the Iranians and yourselves haven't actually changed, have diversity in our look, and genetically are related. Our identities and cultures do change over time but physically there isn't much in it nor much point dwelling on it. One long gone member Maju,was big into genetics, first thing I learnt from him is that our biggest contributors to our make up are pre-historic. Greeks, turks , Iranians are the same as the people that existed there long before our language or identity ever made it mark. Mixing from any conquering groups has minimal impact to our blood and i would assume our look.
 
Originally posted by kurt kurt wrote:

by the way, what do tajiks look like?
Like other Iranians, Caucasian with varying complexion. Ive studied with one in a Indian history class at Uni. she was dark with blue eyes. quite a stunning girl who wouldn't date me because i wasn't a muslim....




Edited by Leonidas - 12-May-2007 at 09:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 09:00
Amen Leo.
 
NB: Tajiks love Iranians.  All Tajiks I have met looked like regular Iranians but I have seen some in pictures and music videos who looked more like Central Asian Turks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 10:25
I guess I should apologize for writing that your thread is provocative, Kurt. Sorry about that. Thanks for explaining why you started this thread.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

My guess is that the original Persian tribes which arrived in Iran did resemble more what you would describe as Europeans but they arrived onto a plateau already inhabited by highly civilised people of regional appearance such as the Elamites and Hurrians, neither of whom were semitic btw and that mixing undoubtedly occured with these people came under Iranic dominion.  But again, this is only MY opinion.
I agree with your opinion Zagros.
There must have been numerous peoples (many of whom probably extinct and unknown) in the plateau before the Iranics.
Considering that there were Babylonians, Akkadians/Assyrians ..etc just around the corner, I think that there were many Semitic peoples/tribes in the plateau as well.

Edited by omshanti - 12-May-2007 at 10:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 11:54

This all starts going wrong when someone says something like "i am assuming that typical aryan complexion is one of blond hair and blue eyes, and fair skin" as Kurt did here.

There's absolutely no reason, unless you're a Hitler freak, to make that assumption at all. The typical Aryan, insofar as there is one, looks like an Iranian or north-west Iindian of today, and probably always did. 

But there is not really any such thing as a typical Aryan physically, they come in all shapes and sizes and a fair range of colours. Except they don't have Mongolian hair, or eye folds, or frizzy ringletted hair. Never did and don't now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 22:41
I hope you two do not mind me pointing out few things.

Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

One long gone member Maju,was big into genetics, first thing I learnt from him is that our biggest contributors to our make up are pre-historic. Greeks, turks , Iranians are the same as the people that existed there long before our language or identity ever made it mark.
The problem with this statement in the context of this thread is, By ''Iranians'' are we talking about the Iranics who originated in the Russian steppes or the ancient/modern peoples of the Plateau/Mesopotamia?

Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

Mixing from any conquering groups has minimal impact to our blood and i would assume our look.
Greeks ,Turks and Iranians have all had different geographical/historical situations, which in my opinion means that we have to look at them separately in terms of racial intermixing throughout history.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

This all starts going wrong when someone says something like "i am assuming that typical aryan complexion is one of blond hair and blue eyes, and fair skin" as Kurt did here.


There's absolutely no reason, unless you're a Hitler freak, to make that assumption at all.

Perhaps using words such as ''typical'' ''blonde'' and ''blue eyes'' with the word ''Aryan'' might have been too extreme since they seem to only remind people of ''Nordic'' ''Germanic'' and ''Hitler'' (which they have nothing to do with), but personally I don't think it is that far-fetched. As I wrote before, considering that their homeland was in the Russian steppes north of the Caspian sea, It is easy to see that they must have been Caucasoids of generally lighter complexion than the modern day citizens of Iran (please note that I am in no way saying that they were nordic , Scandinavian..etc). Also this folk belief of ''Aryan''= light complexion has been there in the minds of Indian people long (millennia?) before Hitler came, which means it has nothing to do with Hitler. Perhaps as the saying says ''no smoke without fire'' , there is some truth/origin to this folk belief.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

The typical Aryan, insofar as there is one, looks like an Iranian or north-west Iindian of today, and probably always did. 
This would be the equivalent of saying that the ancient Turkics who migrated out of the Altai/Mongolia region must have looked like the Anatolian turks of today, or the ancient Romans must have looked like the Brazilians of today.
Iranics were the most widely spread branch of the Indo-European peoples, their range having been from central Europe to western China ,Mesopotamia , Caucasus and Indus valley. In my opinion you can't simply use those two regions who happened to remain Indo-Iranian today as the only standard regarding how the ancient Iranics/Aryans looked like. We have to consider their homeland, the people they might have mixed with, their history....etc all of those things in order to guess.
Not to mention that modern day Iran and north India have been crossroads of peoples and cultures throughout history.

Edited by omshanti - 13-May-2007 at 06:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2007 at 08:06
I agree with Omshanti, except going by the genographic migration map, I would say that blondism first evovled in Central Asia and spread from there with people into Europe among other places, well before IE languages became prolific. That is the route of R1b M343 some 20,000 years ago. And with this theory it can be assumed that there were people of fair complexion even before the Iranics arrived on the plateau.  I think the most significant impact on the appearance of Iranians came first with the Mongols and then with Timur's Turks. Mostly the latter, both slaughtered millions of Iranians but the latter came with Turkic tribes who settled in Iran (Azarbaijan, in fact this is when it was Turkicised, I believe) and also into Turkey - this pushed original Azaris who weren't assimilated or slaughtered into the mountains and into Turkey. I believe this is the origin of Zazaki people, whose language is very similar to Iranian Talysh and both are related to Parthian Pahlavi which was the preTurkic language of Azerbaijan.  These people are generally of light complexion and many Azaris today are clearly descended from them whilst others can be clearly seen to be descended from the invaders.
 
Many other people in iran can be seen with these features also, although they are not Turcophonic, but Persophonic - their ancestors were Persianised, this did not happen in Azarbaijan because a large % of the population was ethnically cleansed and replaced.
 
These are my own personal theories based on my own observations and what I have read.


Edited by Zagros - 13-May-2007 at 08:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2007 at 09:04
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

There's absolutely no reason, unless you're a Hitler freak, to make that assumption at all.

 
dont push it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2007 at 09:09
 
Originally posted by omshanti omshanti wrote:


Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

This all starts going wrong when someone says something like "i am assuming that typical aryan complexion is one of blond hair and blue eyes, and fair skin" as Kurt did here.


There's absolutely no reason, unless you're a Hitler freak, to make that assumption at all.

 Perhaps using words such as ''typical'' ''blonde'' and ''blue eyes'' with the word ''Aryan'' might have been too extreme since they seem to only remind people of ''Nordic'' ''Germanic'' and ''Hitler'' (which they have nothing to do with), but personally I don't think it is that far-fetched. As I wrote before, considering that their homeland was in the Russian steppes north of the Caspian sea, It is easy to see that they must have been Caucasoids of generally lighter complexion than the modern day citizens of Iran (please note that I am in no way saying that they were nordic , Scandinavian..etc).
What I was objecting to was 'blonde hair, blue eyes'. That is worlds different from 'generally lighter complexion'.
Quote
 
Also this folk belief of ''Aryan''= light complexion has been there in the minds of Indian people long (millennia?) before Hitler came, which means it has nothing to do with Hitler.
Same point. 'Light complexion' is not 'blonde hair, blue eyes'. It is about as obvious as anything that the Aryans (narrow definition or broad) were (are for that matter) lighter than the peoples now represented mainly in southern India. They also don't and probably didn't have curly hair. But none of that is any indication they were any more blonde and blue-eyed than, say, Rajiv Ghandi.
 
Who, incidentally, was not unlike François Mitterand in that respect.
Quote
 
 Perhaps as the saying says ''no smoke without fire'' , there is some truth/origin to this folk belief.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

The typical Aryan, insofar as there is one, looks like an Iranian or north-west Iindian of today, and probably always did. 
This would be the equivalent of saying that the ancient Turkics who migrated out of the Altai/Mongolia region must have looked like the Anatolian turks of today, or the ancient Romans must have looked like the Brazilians of today.
I deliberately wrote '...typical Aryan, insofar as there is one...' to indicate I didn't think much of the suggestion. However it is true that most of the members of Aryan populations today have brown hair, brown eyes and generally kind of mid-colour skin.
 
(I repeat 'most', not 'all'.)
 
I don't see any reason to believe it was any different several millenia ago, unless there is some evidence to suggest it was.
 
Quote

Iranics were the most widely spread branch of the Indo-European peoples, their range having been from central Europe to western China ,Mesopotamia , Caucasus and Indus valley. In my opinion you can't simply use those two regions who happened to remain Indo-Iranian today as the only standard regarding how the ancient Iranics/Aryans looked like. We have to consider their homeland, the people they might have mixed with, their history....etc all of those things in order to guess.
Not to mention that modern day Iran and north India have been crossroads of peoples and cultures throughout history.
 
That last is true. I am not saying that the original Aryan speaking peoples could not possibly have been blonde and blue-eyed. It's just that without evidence there is no reason to suppose they were much different before than they are now.
 
Without specific evidence for a change, you have to assume there wasn't one.
 
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