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Forum LockedGun Control/Gun Ownership

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    Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 14:28
What is your stance on gun control and gun ownership?



As an American, I view guns as my right. As long as somebody is properly trained and is not a criminal they have the right to own a gun. Furthermore, in the wake of the recent shooting I feel that if several students or teachers had carried a handgun they could have stopped the killers rampage and saved many of the victims lives. This is true for any place where somebody snaps and goes on a rampage: people will have  chance to fight back and defend themselves. Also, if everybody had a gun, people would think twice before trying to do criminal acts such as robbery, rape, breaking and entering, etc.

What do you think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 14:43
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

What is your stance on gun control and gun ownership?



As an American, I view guns as my right. As long as somebody is properly trained and is not a criminal they have the right to own a gun. Furthermore, in the wake of the recent shooting I feel that if several students or teachers had carried a handgun they could have stopped the killers rampage and saved many of the victims lives. This is true for any place where somebody snaps and goes on a rampage: people will have  chance to fight back and defend themselves. Also, if everybody had a gun, people would think twice before trying to do criminal acts such as robbery, rape, breaking and entering, etc.

What do you think?
 
So, please help me, why don't you do the next step. Place a pershing II in your garden. Might be your neighbor will cut some of your trees unauthorized. Give him an example , he will never do it again.
 
What a logic. More weapons will bring us more peace.Ouch

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 14:47
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten ulrich von hutten wrote:

Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:



What do you think?
 
So, please help me, why don't you do the next step. Place a pershing II in your garden. Might be your neighbor will cut some of your trees unauthorized. Give him an example , he will never do it again.
 
What a logic. More weapons will bring us more peace.Ouch


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 14:53
My stance is simple.
 
Citizens with special licence such as farmers (rifles/shotguns) - OK
Citizens without a REAL and practical purpose other than bravado: hell no.
 
This Korean fellow, he had no criminal convictions, went out and exercised his right to own a gun and look what happened.  If guns were not so readily available in the US then this tragedy would never have come to pass, or at least not on such a horrendous scale - simple as that. 
 
No private citizen should have the right to wield such lethal force at their whim.
 
What is the rationale behind the constitutional right to bear arms? 
 
 


Edited by Zagros - 19-Apr-2007 at 14:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 14:54
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

Originally posted by ulrich von hutten ulrich von hutten wrote:

Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:



What do you think?
 
So, please help me, why don't you do the next step. Place a pershing II in your garden. Might be your neighbor will cut some of your trees unauthorized. Give him an example , he will never do it again.
 
What a logic. More weapons will bring us more peace.Ouch


If you want peace, prepare for war.
 
No one is prepared for peace.If you want peace, is war a conceivable poor alternative


Edited by ulrich von hutten - 19-Apr-2007 at 14:55

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 14:55
Questions:
  1. How do you make sure that the owner of a gun is "properly trained and is not a criminal"? I'm not an US citizen, but I did have a thorough teaching about using firearms. If I get to US would you hand me a gun?
  2. If there were more individuals carrying guns, would they have the ability to select the right "target"? I mean, if you see two people firing at eachother how do you know who's the "good guy" and who's the "bad guy"? They're not wearing labels or uniforms.
  3. A person carrying a gun has, indeed, the ability to get hold of the upper hand when threathened. Bu he/she also has the ability to threat "non wielding gun" people. Which is more dangerous to society:
    • the possibility to all (almost) to legally get a gun
    • the restriction of arms owning to a set of very drastic rules
    • free arms shopping! there would be so many weapons around that noone would dare to make use of his own?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 14:56
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

Originally posted by ulrich von hutten ulrich von hutten wrote:

Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:



What do you think?
 
So, please help me, why don't you do the next step. Place a pershing II in your garden. Might be your neighbor will cut some of your trees unauthorized. Give him an example , he will never do it again.
 
What a logic. More weapons will bring us more peace.Ouch


If you want peace, prepare for war.
 
The appalling rate of gun crime in America is testiment to the validity of that statement.  'nuff said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 15:05
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

Originally posted by ulrich von hutten ulrich von hutten wrote:

Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:



What do you think?
 
So, please help me, why don't you do the next step. Place a pershing II in your garden. Might be your neighbor will cut some of your trees unauthorized. Give him an example , he will never do it again.
 
What a logic. More weapons will bring us more peace.Ouch


If you want peace, prepare for war.
 
The appalling rate of gun crime in America is testiment to the validity of that statement.  'nuff said.
 
that nothing else but a declaration of bankruptcy for a society.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 15:27
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten ulrich von hutten wrote:

[QUOTE=Zagros][QUOTE=Adalwolf] [QUOTE=ulrich von hutten][QUOTE=Adalwolf]


 
that nothing else but a declaration of bankruptcy for a society.


What? what type of bankruptcy? Financial, moral?

Oh, and gun crime in the US has actual gone down consistently for years.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 15:34
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:


 
that nothing else but a declaration of bankruptcy for a society.


What? what type of bankruptcy? Financial, moral?

Oh, and gun crime in the US has actual gone down consistently for years.

[/QUOTE]
 
whether it's a financial i can't judge but that it is a  declaration of moral bankruptcy is as certain as the sun rises in the East.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 15:59
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:


If you want peace, prepare for war.
 
More accurately, the US position on guns is "If you want war, prepare for war."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 16:10
I'm for some gun control, if you want to own a firearm you should go through a thorough background check and have to take a certified training course.
 
Some weapons should be totally prohibited, like high capacity handguns and semi-auto assault rifles.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 16:29
Ask yourself a question: could this fellow have gone on a rampage and killed 30 people armed with a knife, or a bat? The posession of a gun makes it much easier for this type of people to kill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 17:09
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:


If you want peace, prepare for war.
 
More accurately, the US position on guns is "If you want war, prepare for war."


Possibly. But history has shown that those without the capibility to defend themselves often fall prey to aggressors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 17:21
Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Adalwolf Adalwolf wrote:


If you want peace, prepare for war.
 
More accurately, the US position on guns is "If you want war, prepare for war."


Possibly. But history has shown that those without the capibility to defend themselves often fall prey to aggressors.
 
And those that give into the folly of overdependence on arms often get into situations that the use of force cannot get them out of.
 
My grandfather was a miner and a prospector in rural Idaho and often carried a 9mm Luger on his hip to protect against two and four legged predators. He only had to use it once when he got in between a black bear sow and its cub, and had to shoot the bear when it charged. His rules on the use of firearms were very simple and sobering:
 
1. If you draw your gun be prepared to shoot.
 
2. If you shoot, you shoot to kill.
 
If you carry a gun you have to be prepared to use it and accept the fact that once the bullet leaves your gun there's no calling it back. Even police that are trained in the use of deadly force make mistakes. Having a whole lot of untrained, heavily armed people out there is going to lead to more tragedy in the long run, not less.


Edited by DukeC - 19-Apr-2007 at 17:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 17:24
Originally posted by Decebal Decebal wrote:

Ask yourself a question: could this fellow have gone on a rampage and killed 30 people armed with a knife, or a bat? The posession of a gun makes it much easier for this type of people to kill.
 
I live in that area and I can tell you that I am no more than 3 phone calls away from a bag of marijuana or any other drug I want, and probably only a few more away from anything else I could desire.  If this guy really wanted guns to kill my classmates, he would have found a way to get them.  And indeed, legalized guns does make it easier for criminals to get guns, but they will regardless.  The law abiding citizens who are victims of those people are the ones who will be disarmed to the greatest extent by banning guns.
 
I also think it's not applicable to say that because Europe has less guns and less crime than the USA, if the USA had less guns they too would have less crime.  That totally ignores the other factors at play.  Within the United States those states which have tight gun control generally have higher crime.  Such as the District of Columbia, where private citizens were forbidden from owning handguns until recently, and they had the most appalling crime rate in the entire Union, and the criminals seemed to be well-armed despite all their laws.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 17:26
Originally posted by Decebal Decebal wrote:

Ask yourself a question: could this fellow have gone on a rampage and killed 30 people armed with a knife, or a bat? The posession of a gun makes it much easier for this type of people to kill.
 
 
No, but he could have gone to any one of several hundred internet sites, procured a shopping list and gone to the grocery, hardware store and a garden center and in 4-5 hours have a bomb capable of wiping out 10 times that many people,  and for a tenth of the cost of 2-3 handguns.
If someone is determined to undertake an act of violence such as this one, firearms being unavailable won't deter them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 17:30
Originally posted by Genghis Genghis wrote:

 
I live in that area and I can tell you that I am no more than 3 phone calls away from a bag of marijuana or any other drug I want, and probably only a few more away from anything else I could desire.  
 
I could also get pretty much any drug with as many phone calls, but a firearm? no.
 
Quote I also think it's not applicable to say that because Europe has less guns and less crime than the USA, if the USA had less guns they too would have less crime.  That totally ignores the other factors at play.  Within the United States those states which have tight gun control generally have higher crime.  Such as the District of Columbia, where private citizens were forbidden from owning handguns until recently, and they had the most appalling crime rate in the entire Union, and the criminals seemed to be well-armed despite all their laws.
 
Gun control would have to be universal otherwise it's ineffectual (a criminal in DC could easily hop over to Md or Va and arm himself to the teeth in that situation) and can easily exacerbate the situation as you described since criminals may be emboldened with the knowledge that law abiding citizens will not be armed.
 


Edited by Zagros - 19-Apr-2007 at 17:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 17:43
Some observed facts:

1) Legalizing guns favours black market (of fireweapons). If you ban mister X to own a gun but put no restriction for his kid brother to need one, there's no point. Similarly, where's the point of having the district of Columbia banning guns if driving 10 min you can buy one somewhere else.

2) There is control and control, I think that one of the most problematic is that a student is able to buy it. I mean has the gun cost $5,000, he may not have bought it. Had he needed 3 month between the purchase and the actual reception of the weapon…

3) Gun do encorage violence. See for instance the policemen in London rarely carry guns (10% of them). And they have the lowest death rate in all the police forces in the ODCE. In that sense violence does feed violence.

4) There is indeed things one cannot control (eg at the end of the war in ex-Yougoslavia, you could find Kalachnkov for $100 in Paris), nations have different cultures (eg the same washing machine washes twice longer in Italy than in the US… why?). Banning weapons won't change it all instantly.

One thing for sure to end with: asking for more guns in colleges is idiotic. I personally wouldn't send my children to a school like that. Would you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 17:53
Gun control in the US is much more complex than it would be elsewhere.  Your dealing with one of the cornerstones of American culture.  The right to carry arms is provided for in the Constitution and there is a substantial percentage of the population that will not allow that to be messed with.  I am not talking about Chuck Heston and his boys either.  Consider this statistic from the early 90's,  The State of Pennsylvania alone had more registered firearms than the US Army owns.  Notice I said registered, in an anonymous survey 40% of the legal gunowners in that state stated they owned more than one unregistered firearm.  And this isn't even the "from my cold dead hands" heartland.
 
 
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