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Forum LockedThe corruption of the Church.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The corruption of the Church.
    Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 16:50
It is well known that the Catholic Church uin Medieval Europe was one of the most corrup organizations in history. their power rivaled that of many of the kings. They would demand payments to ensure that people would have passage to heaven....

The controlled the masses.

Marx once said..."Religion is the opiate of the masses."

This was definitely true in medieval Europe in my opinion.

what do you think?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 17:05
I think its an over-exaggeration, but right now, I haven't the time to enter any specifics.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 15:00
well all the recovering catholics I know still have that indoctrinated opinion that the church saw Europe through the dark ages, even though you could make just as effective of an argument that the church was the biggest problem of the dark ages...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 16:47
That is why my people branched away.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 18:20

Originally posted by Illuminati

It is well known that the Catholic Church uin Medieval Europe was one of the most corrup organizations in history. their power rivaled that of many of the kings. They would demand payments to ensure that people would have passage to heaven....

The controlled the masses.

Marx once said..."Religion is the opiate of the masses."

This was definitely true in medieval Europe in my opinion.

what do you think?

That is exaggerated, and I don't see why the Catholic Church should be singled out here.  I'd go ahead and make this statement: the Catholic Church did have elements of corruption, but wasn't particularly so.

One thing we need to keep in mind is that history is always studied from hindsight.  In the Renaissance, Europeans went through classical revivals.  The idea that the Middle Ages were the "Dark Ages" was an idea of this time -- it was an effort to galvanize classical revivalist movements and to posit an opposite ideal against which the classicists strived.  Subsequent centuries of European histories saw similar trends of characterizing the past to justify the present.  Protestantism, nationalism, and capitalism led to a rethinking of the Medieval past, which was then interpreted as backward and corrupt in order to highlight the successes of modernity.

The thing regarding indulgences: the Catholic Church never issued the sales of indulgences.  It was the incorrect practices of some clergies (many of them probably weren't trying to overtly get money.  they were probably giving penances in forms of donations to the Church.)  When the issue of the sale of indulgences came up, the Church banned their sales.  (Penances in forms of donations were also banned I think.)  In keeping with an incident recorded in the Bible, where St. Peter condemned Simon the Magician for offering the Apostles money in exchange for having the powers of the Holy Spirit conferred upon him, the Catholic Church has never allowed sales of anything sacred -- everything from a blessed holy image to indulgences.  The idea of indulgence isn't "tickets to Heaven;" the idea was that every sin entails some temporary consequences that must be expiated, and those who died without expiation of venial sins and temporary consequences of sins, but nonetheless died in the state of grace and without mortal sin, would stay in purgatory temporary for expiation, upon the completion of which one would be released from Purgatory and goes to Heaven (contrary to some misunderstanding, Purgatory isn't a middle ground for the "not so good, not so bad" people.  It's a temporary station prior to Heaven for those who are saved.)  Hence indulgences (usually in forms of prayers) were granted to the faithful for expiation in order to lesson time spent in Purgatory.  (In other words, an indulgence might be granted by the pope that one prays a number of prayers, and by doing so one gains full or some expiation, depending on whether the person meets several requirements.)  Whether or not we agree with Catholic Theology is one thing -- we need to be clear that indulgences are not what many people mistaken them to be.

Peace,

Michael

12-8-2004



Edited by MengTzu
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 18:26

That is why my people branched away.

If your Orthodox, you never branched away, because you were there since the beginning.

Also the Orthodox clergy were just as pious and just as corrupt as any Catholic clergy.

*Everyone else replace Orthodox with whatever faith you choose to believe in.*

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 23:09
beauracracy alone euqals corruption, this is why if you want a sucessful faith remove large established power structures from it.  The recent sucess of protastantism for example.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote THemOngolians Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 01:02
pretty much everything i hear about the church at that time was catholic and very very bad ... the power-hungry preists words were now gods, very scary
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 11:04

To every situation there is the extreme views. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. This is no exception. The medieval Church did many things that by todays standards and even by the standards of the day where bad and curuped. They also did much good. 

Although as MengTzu said the church never sactuioned the sale of  indulgences that didn't mean that in practice it wasn't done. The church today doesn't saction many things that goes on either. And how is the sale of   indulgences all that differant than the common practices in roman era of selling preisthoods and offerings to the gods?

Perhaps it is better to stop judging the situation and try and figure out why it was happening.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ShadowedRealm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 16:54

Perhaps it is better to stop judging the situation and try and figure out why it was happening.

I agree with Dawn.

pretty much everything i hear about the church at that time was catholic and very very bad

I'm curious what exactly you've heard about that was so bad? Are you referring to the inquisitions?

the power-hungry preists words were now gods, very scary

What are you trying to say here? I'm not bringing this up to be judgmental or to defend what the Catholic Church was doing, but I'm trying to get a better idea of what you thought the church did.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 17:24
Originally posted by Dawn

To every situation there is the extreme views. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. This is no exception. The medieval Church did many things that by todays standards and even by the standards of the day where bad and curuped. They also did much good. 


Completely true. The Church was for example the only organization that took care of the lowest and very poorest, starting and financing hospitals and poor-houses. Though they did change lots of things in peoples lives, like institutionalizing and divinificating marriage, changing the view on sex from being something natural to something sinful and removing all pagan festivals (well, not all, and rather changing them a little to become "Christian", but anyway) they also did get rid of some more dubious things, like human sacrifice (which admitedly wasn't all to common - yet again I say "but anyway"). They also spread technology, the monks were the only people who could be called 'scientists' or researchers, and basicly all doctors were schooled in the monasteries.

Edited by Styrbiorn
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AssyrianGuy7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 14:02

This week in school i am learning about the Catholic church.  The catholic church gave a bad name to all of christianity.  They killed and torched non believers. They were like the muslims of today.  The cathlolic church also hurt many other christian churches.  The Assyrian Church was hurt by the Catholic Church.  Who ever the Assyrians Church converted the catholic church would come and convert them right after to catholic. My proof is in india. All of the christians in india followed the Assyrian Church.  A couple years later the Catholic church came and forced many to convert to catholic.

"Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 17:05

Assyrian the Catholic church should not be blamed for those conversions of the past. The church has never done anything wrong, merely some of the people who claimed to be catholics have caused problems in the world.

Like those conversions in India, they were caused by the portuguese nobility who wanted the population to be allied with the roman church, so they could be allied to the portuguese government.

Besides the assyrians turned to the Catholic church for guidance when Patriarch Mar Shimun IV established nepotism in the eastern church. Then after that there was a whole slew of confusing political alliegences that had some patriarchs accepting catholiscism while others denied it. Until we have the current forms today.

Besides the church does not wish to harm other churches, they merely want to bring others into the fold. This doesn't mean losing identity because many uniate churches are free to worship as they always have.

BTW I'm quite curious as to what you are being taught about the Catholic church, please PM me about it. Also, do you go to a parochial school or a public school? Or are you in a university?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 01:29

Originally posted by Tobodai

beauracracy alone euqals corruption, this is why if you want a sucessful faith remove large established power structures from it.  The recent sucess of protastantism for example.

I don't follow.  You are implying the equivalence of two things here: lack of corruption and success.  Here's what your argument sounds like:

1) bureacracy = corruption

2) Protestantism lacks bureacracy

3) Protestantism was therefore successful

    Are you saying that Protestant churches are less corrupt?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 14:00
Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by Tobodai

beauracracy alone euqals corruption, this is why if you want a sucessful faith remove large established power structures from it.  The recent sucess of protastantism for example.

I don't follow.  You are implying the equivalence of two things here: lack of corruption and success.  Here's what your argument sounds like:

1) bureacracy = corruption

2) Protestantism lacks bureacracy

3) Protestantism was therefore successful

    Are you saying that Protestant churches are less corrupt?

 

Careful there. This could be taken as bashing nonprotestants. I think the success of protestants is that if you look at the protestant countries Germany, Scandinavia, US, etc... people associate protestants as being very well off so they think that protestanism will bring prosperity which is not the case. There other factors that will change the socioeconomic situation.

Without burecracy there would be no organization. The benefits of bureacracy vs the downside of corruption. The former far outweights the latter.

 

EDIT if you look at the regions that protestantism was successful. They tend to be far from Rome and the culture is different from mediterranean. The north is cold and germanic vs the warmer mediterranean and latinized. This definitely has to play into this.



Edited by mongke
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 17:50
Originally posted by mongke

Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by Tobodai

beauracracy alone euqals corruption, this is why if you want a sucessful faith remove large established power structures from it.  The recent sucess of protastantism for example.

I don't follow.  You are implying the equivalence of two things here: lack of corruption and success.  Here's what your argument sounds like:

1) bureacracy = corruption

2) Protestantism lacks bureacracy

3) Protestantism was therefore successful

    Are you saying that Protestant churches are less corrupt?

 

Careful there. This could be taken as bashing nonprotestants. I think the success of protestants is that if you look at the protestant countries Germany, Scandinavia, US, etc... people associate protestants as being very well off so they think that protestanism will bring prosperity which is not the case. There other factors that will change the socioeconomic situation.

Without burecracy there would be no organization. The benefits of bureacracy vs the downside of corruption. The former far outweights the latter.

 

EDIT if you look at the regions that protestantism was successful. They tend to be far from Rome and the culture is different from mediterranean. The north is cold and germanic vs the warmer mediterranean and latinized. This definitely has to play into this.

Um, shouldn't you be addressing Tobodai instead of me then?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 19:24

Lets bring this back into a medieval perspective.

 

The following linkcontains an article that talks about the protasant reform movement http://www.the-orb.net/non_spec/missteps/ch11.html

Do you agree or disagree?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ptolemy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 00:38

I agree with Dawn and Styrbiorn, the truth is somewhere in the middle. While corruption did occur throughout the Church's history, the church also looked after the poor and passe don knowledge.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 00:57



The Catholic Church was not more corrupt than any other organization leaded by men.

The Anglican Church was created because refuse to give the divorce to the King Henry, right ?

Every other major christian church or branch commited not less prosecutions of jews, moors and others.
Didn't Russia had progroms ? Didn't the lutherans and calvinist prosecuted also witches and devil worshipers ?

However, the Catholic Church was the great educator of Europe and America.

What was the first book ever printed ? The Bible.

In America, the Catholic Church commited crimes agaisnt the local cultures by forbiden and demonizing the local believes and impossing the christianity to the natives. However, it was an institution that created the first hospitals, Orphanatories and the first formal Universities in the Americas ( Mexico and Peru ).

Plus, at least in Mexico, many priestes as Tata Vasco, Bartolome De Las Casas and some others, protected to the natives agaisnt the abuses of the Encomenderos. Not all of them were like Torquemada.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 07:08
Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer


  Didn't the lutherans and calvinist prosecuted also witches and devil worshipers ?


Calvinist rule in Geneva was so harsh, that on a certain moment women were tried as well if they were raped, because for some reason the calvinists thought they'd enjoyed it somehow.
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