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Forum LockedSteppe Empires and their relation with Ch

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    Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 14:52
Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

To my best knowledge, none of them were Han ethnicity.

Zhou: Western barbarians
Qin: ChiDi (Red di)
Wei: Tuoba Xianpei
Sui: Tuoba Xianpei
Yuan: Mongol
Ching: Manchu

    
 
the name Han is simply a generalization of all Chinese in Han dynasty time, since Zhou and Qin are both before Han, none of them should be considered as "barbarians". there is no specific origin of han Chinese, even if there is, you can't find any pure Han chinese.
 
I notice something interesting in Shi Ji, in the chapter on Liu Bang, the founder of Han Dynasty, there is a short description of his appearance that mentioned he have huge nose and that is quiet uncommon for Chinese at the time. there is a good chance he might belong to a  ethnic group ouside Chin empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GR3Y077 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 03:09
The Toba Wei people were originally Turkic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 16:36
Originally posted by MING-LOYALIST MING-LOYALIST wrote:

China's border has a lot to do with Qing dynasty, as for mongol or manchu uniting china, it may not have been their purpose initially but that was the result.

Yes, I agree with you on point that uniting the China wasn't there purpose initially. Even their conquest of China strenghtened China so that later Chinese own dynasties  had strong fundaments to establish their empire. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MING-LOYALIST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2006 at 02:28

China's border has a lot to do with Qing dynasty, as for mongol or manchu uniting china, it may not have been their purpose initially but that was the result.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2006 at 14:08

 


"Despite their nomadic backgrounds, without them China as we know it today would never exist."
---------------------

This kind of statement is base on nothing but assumption. How do you know that is the case? And how do you prove it?

 

"Mandarin or Putonghua was developed later in the Qing dynasty, this language is till today the official language of the PRC."
---------------------

'Mandarin', for whatever reason the westerners nowadays call this the official language of china as 'Mandarin', indeed, it has not much to do with the Manchu people. "Mandarin" is a local dialect of beijingers, where the majority of Beijing people of Ming period were coming from the south, the surrounding area of Beijing and mingle with the local people.

 

"The Mongols and Manchu’s united China”
---------------------

The Mongols conquer China eventually, is not for the purpose of united China, but for their land and material ambition, for a selfish purpose only, same as for the Manchu people take over China.


'Defined the borders of present day PRC, which is a subset of their
Respective empires'
---------------------

Foe the border issue, Mongols or Manchus, take the land is their land, also for their own beneficiaries only. Border is their border, their 'China's border, since China is their China.

In history, every dynasty changes in China, new border of China, size of the land the the new dynasty is able to control or rule, it depends on the military power of the new dynasty, and the ambition of the new dynasty.

For the contemporary history, actually, this kind land, military power, border, and ambition relationship, it apples to evry country and the whole world.

Manchu-Ching once ruled outer Mongolia, and a large area of northern Heilongjiang. When in the turns of last century, Manchu-Ching collapsed, Chinese people were so week at that time. New the china was in civil war, no regime or power was able to fight against the strong Russia, so Russia was manage to make outer Mongolia independent, and took a very big chunk of northern lands of Heilongjiang.

So, new China's new borer, is define by new China's own strength, in relatively to the out side power. But it is not define or set by Mongols dynasty or Manchu dynasty.



Edited by jjack - 08-Dec-2006 at 14:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MING-LOYALIST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 20:25
China is more then just Han ethnicity.
 
Also only Yuan and Qing were non-han the others were Han. The Wei is the Jin dynasty of Sima Yan not the Northern Wei which never united anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 11:58

I know the sinization process for some of these nomadic groups. Sinization itself shows the fact that they were originally not part of Sino group or culture. Moreover not all of the decendants of these groups sinizied, there are still groups with distinct culture and ethnicities from these groups who are not Han ethnicity.

Han Chinese concept is nothing like American concept no matter how many times you multiply. One is ethnic term, while the other is statehood. So you have Han Chinese, Hui Chinese etc, just as African American, Hispanic American etc.

Either make a history or become a history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sasori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 12:28
Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

To my best knowledge, none of them were Han ethnicity.

Zhou: Western barbarians
Qin: ChiDi (Red di)
Wei: Tuoba Xianpei
Sui: Tuoba Xianpei
Yuan: Mongol
Ching: Manchu

    
 
There is no Han Chinese concept during the Zhou and the Qin, not even until very recently. The Wei that was mentioned is actually Jin as Sima family usurped power from Wei and united the 3 kingdoms under Western Jin. They are what you may call the Han Chinese. The Sui are part Han part Xianbei(from the mother side) if you can call it that. In time, all Xianbei have been Sinicized or mixed with other minority groups(which later may become the Mongols) or disappear in history like the XiongNu.
 
Here is translation of Xiao Wendi from Northern Wei period in 490 AD from CHF forum by General Zhaoyun:
Translation:

The wearing of "hu" clothings was banned for all Xianbei. The speaking of Xianbei language was banned in the imperial court. It was encouraged to change the surname of the Xianbei to that of han. Mix marriage between han and Xianbei was encouraged. In 495 AD, it was decree that Xianbei and other northern languages were not to be spoken in the court, anyone who violate it would not be able to stay in court.. "to eliminate northern language, make Han language official. All above 30 years old are pardoned . For those below 30 years old, anyone who met the officials must speak the han langauge, if violated will be sacked form their position. Xiao Wendi also encouraged the wearing of the han clothing.

Translation:

Besides the language, Xiao Wendi also ordered the change of Xianbei surname to that of Han. The 'Tuoba" (a Xianbei surname), according to "the book of Wei", was a descendent from the Yellow Emperor. The Tuoba surname was changed to that of Yuan, in order to make their rule and staying in China deemed appropriate. All the aristocracy surnames had to be changed. This is to ensure the Xianbei's political position and the integration with the han family. In addition, mix marriage is encouraged between han and xianbei. With the han's blood being part of them, this would support Northern Wei's regime.
 
 
The Qing(Manchu) didn't unite China as they stormed the capital after being let in by a traitor during the Ming's weakest period. Liu Bang put more effort in founding the Han dynasty but he's not credited as uniting China. As of now, many Manchus have also been Sinicized and counted as Han Chinese although many others are counted as ethnic Manchu.
 
Han Chinese concept is like being an American concept multiply 10x older, be careful when using them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 08:43
To my best knowledge, none of them were Han ethnicity.

Zhou: Western barbarians
Qin: ChiDi (Red di)
Wei: Tuoba Xianpei
Sui: Tuoba Xianpei
Yuan: Mongol
Ching: Manchu

    

Edited by barbar - 22-Oct-2006 at 08:43
Either make a history or become a history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 19:58
Originally posted by cliveersknell cliveersknell wrote:

The facts speak for themselves, the mongols and manchus
1. united China
2. Defined the borders of present day PRC, which is a subset of their
respective empires
3. Made Beijing the capitol .
4. Mandarin or putonghua was developed later in the Qing dynasty, this language is till today the official language of the PRC.
Despite their nomadic backgrounds, without them China as we know it today would never exist.
 
Zhou,Qin,Wei,Sui,Yuan,Qing empires all united chinaWink only two are non han ethnicity.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 17:28

Shinai

Let me remind you that Ck and his successors forged a war machine the likes of which were never seen before. They would have overrun any dynasty or empire, including the roman empire.
r's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 17:26
The facts speak for themselves, the mongols and manchus
1. united China
2. Defined the borders of present day PRC, which is a subset of their
respective empires
3. Made Beijing the capitol .
4. Mandarin or putonghua was developed later in the Qing dynasty, this language is till today the official language of the PRC.
Despite their nomadic backgrounds, without them China as we know it today would never exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 15:45
It does not mean they were special race , they were staying at  their steps and waiting for a right time to attack, for example all their attacks to Iran failed during the Persian and Sasanian empires, but they found a right time when the country was in trouble and their organized army took the lands, and exactly after sfavies took the power no namd were able to enter to Iran.
This is the case of Huns and Roman empire, during the pick day of roman empire none of nomads would dare to enetr to roman lands.
The nomad used to say that they are like the wolves and wolves only attack to old and sick animals
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 00:05
Hi Tolui
Thanks for your enlightening reply about Beijing. Khubilai's palace was actually in Beihai park, and one of the white dagoba's is a living relic of the Dadu.
Regarding the Manchus, true, Nurhaci proclaimed the revival of the Jin state .
However, Hongtaiji, changed all that and proclaimed the
"Qing" dynasty, he not only included Nuzhens but also
Mongols ( Horcins, Kharachins, Khalkhas, etc.. primarily
eastern mongols), Koreans, and Hans.
Hongtaiji also married Buumbutai, or Xiaozhuang, who was a
Horcin princess, and a descendant of CK. Hongtaiji's son
and succeeding Manchu emperors carried down the seed of
CK.
After the defeat of Galdan, and the return of the Torguts
all Mongols from east to west recognized the Qing emperor
as their Khakhan.
The Manchu language itself was a derivate of the mongol
script and was completely different than the old Nuzhen
script. The Manchu peoples themselves may not be totally
Nuzhen, remember, when Ck destroyed the Jin empire, he
reinstated the Liao kingdom in Liaoning, henceforth many
Qidans resettled in their ancestral homeland. The Nuzhens
on the other hand were scattered to the 4 winds. From this
I would logically guess that the Manchu people had more
Qidan in them than Nuzhen. Henceforth this makes them even
closer to the Mongols.
r's
CLive
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toluy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 12:59
Originally posted by cliveersknell cliveersknell wrote:

2 nomadic peoples truly united China and defined her present day borders with her capitol in Beijing
1. Mongols- built Beijing ; brought Xinjiang, Tibet, Heilongjiang, Yunnan into the empire
2. Manchus - Were a legacy of the Mongols, and ruled China with it's present boundaries with the addition of Mongolia and Buryat Mongolia.
r's
Clive
 
The forbidden city of Beijing was built by Zhudi, the second emperor of Ming dynasty. What the Mongols built is Yuan Dadu(the capital of Yuan), which is near with forbidden city, but they are two different cities in ancient and both them lies in Beijing nowadays. As far as I know, the earlier city which lies in Beijing is Nan Jing of Liao dynasty(founded by Khitan/Qidan). Nan Jing means the southern captial, for this city is the southest capital of Liao dynasty, whcih had five capitals in its heyday. So I think Nan Jing of Liao dynasty is the earliest capital lied in Beijing. Also as Barbar said Xiangjiang was annexed by Manchus, and I think so is Tibet, for it is not dominated by Yuan emperor directly but a vassa of Yuan dynasty.
Furthermore, Manchus are not a legacy of Mongols but N鼁hens/Nuchens indeed, who were the foes of Genghiskhan Mongols. Because the Jin dynasty founded by Nuchens killed forefathers of Genghiskhan's and imposed crueling oppression on other tribes of the northen steppe including Genghiskhan's. After the defeat from Mongols, Nuchens retreated to Manchuria(present Heilongjiang) and became strong again until Ming dynasty, hundreds years later, and at last developed into Manchus.


Edited by Toluy - 11-Oct-2006 at 13:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 09:17
What about the migration of the Torgut from the Volga to Xinjiang in 1771(?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 08:30
Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

Originally posted by Tobodai Tobodai wrote:

Aside from military campaigns, is there any instance where a people migrated west to east along the steppe?

    
When they were deafeated, there were cases that they moved to the east, for examle, Donghu migration to the east after defeated by Huns. Someone also mentioned some Uyghur migration to the east to become part of Qitans. I have no doubt there were many other these type of cases.






Not that I acn think of..

We have a sequence of peoples emerging from the forests of Northern Manchuria and fanning out onto the Liao-Xia steppe and the Mongolian plateau and we have others coming out of the Russian forests onto the Volga steppe.  There are also people moving North from Tibet.

There is a European perception of Barbarians from the East because of incursions from the Volga and Pontic steppes.  The quivelant Chinese perception is of the Barbarians sweeping down from the North.
rgds.

      Tom..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 06:06
Originally posted by cliveersknell cliveersknell wrote:

2 nomadic peoples truly united China and defined her present day borders with her capitol in Beijing
1. Mongols- built Beijing ; brought Xinjiang, Tibet, Heilongjiang, Yunnan into the empire
2. Manchus - Were a legacy of the Mongols, and ruled China with it's present boundaries with the addition of Mongolia and Buryat Mongolia.
r's
Clive


It was Manchu who annexed Xinjiang. Yuan, if considered to be a Chinese dynasty, didn't brought Xinjiang to her land. Chaghatai were ruling this region.


    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 06:04
Originally posted by Tobodai Tobodai wrote:

Aside from military campaigns, is there any instance where a people migrated west to east along the steppe?

    
When they were deafeated, there were cases that they moved to the east, for examle, Donghu migration to the east after defeated by Huns. Someone also mentioned some Uyghur migration to the east to become part of Qitans. I have no doubt there were many other these type of cases.




Either make a history or become a history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 02:24
Manchus never reached to Buryat Mongol. Buryat Mongol came under Russia at that time.
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