History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedThe Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 17>
Author
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)
    Posted: 04-Apr-2009 at 19:49
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

Though retrospectively criticised, it was the best policy at that time by a seasoned and experienced ruler. Its weakness is the lack of competent monitoring or enforcement of effective military duties by the cedee.
 
Yes, Michael VIII and Andronikos II made effective use of pronoia grants in the late period.  I honestly think this helped the Empire survive over the next two centuries. 
 
After the transfer of the imperial seat and administration back to Constantinople in 1261, the Byzantines basically had to start over because they no longer had a concentration of power in Asia Minor.  To think what could have been done if Michael VIII had stayed at Nicaea!
 
Back to Top
Nestorian View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 161
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 13:48
The pronaiar system is a curious system. Its a hybrid of different systems and principles.
 
It is part fuedal in that it was suppose to render military service to the ruling Emperor in return for land....and the land's financial (revenue base). In some cases, it was hereditary, throwing another dimension to it.
 
It is also an informal tax farming system in that the owner is able to extract revenue, that in former times would be collected by the cetnral government, but ceded to the holder.
 
But, alas, it was a system that reflected the exigencies of the time.
 
Though retrospectively criticised, it was the best policy at that time by a seasoned and experienced ruler. Its weakness is the lack of competent monitoring or enforcement of effective military duties by the cedee.
 
 
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 06:45
Originally posted by Sergeant113 Sergeant113 wrote:

Small pronoia (military fiefs) were occupied by stradiotai...
 
I would not call them "fiefs," because it brings to mind the hereditary land holdings of western medieval knights in the socio-economic phenomenon known as "feudalism."
 
The late Byzantine pronoia was not the same thing as a fief.  It was not part of something that was similar to or influenced by western feudalism.  Rather, it was a semi-institutional structure that was developed by the Komnenian and Palaiologan emperors to deal with the decline in resources and manpower from the 11th to 15th centuries.
 
It was not actual land that was owned and farmed by a lord and his peasants.  The Byzantine emperor granted the rights over tax or revenue collection of certain working peasants and buildings in return for some kind of service.  It was owned at all times by the State and was revocable by the emperor.  Also, it was only by a grant of subsequent privileges that the right became hereditary.
 
Originally posted by Sergeant113 Sergeant113 wrote:

My guess is the cavalry in the Total war and rise of nations series is based more on the later mercenary than the original stradiotai
 
Yes, the stradiotai in Rise of Nations do look rather odd in their plate armor and plumed helmets!
 
Back to Top
Sergeant113 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 18-Apr-2008
Location: Vietnam
Status: Offline
Points: 29
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sergeant113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 06:27
Small pronoia (military fiefs) were occupied by stradiotai, or soldier as Byzantine Emperor mentioned, who were citizens, mercenaries and even prisoners of war. The stradiotai were the main supply of the Byzzie's declining military force, and later, after the loss of Constantinople to the Ottoman, became mercenaries known as stradiotes in western Europe. Their first service was to Venice during the Veneto-Turkish war. Later, seeing the effectiveness of these stradiotes, other Italian city states either directly employed them or hired them for training their own light cavalry troops. 

My guess is the cavalry in the Total war and rise of nations series is based more on the later mercenary than the original stradiotai :)


Edited by Sergeant113 - 11-Dec-2008 at 06:30
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 19:35
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

I meant as in the cavalry
 
Can you be more specific?  Despite what the developers of Medieval Total War and Rise of Nations think, there was not a specific unit (discernible from the sources) called stratiotai in the late period.  In the latter part of the middle Byzantine period (8th-10th centuries), however, there were cavalry units financed from the revenues of state military lands called stratiotika ktemata.  This might be the origin of the late Byzantine method of remuneration called pronoia or oikonomia, in the opinion of the French scholar Paul Lemerle.
 
See John Haldon and Mark Bartusis for more information.  You can access parts of their books on the Byzantine army on Google Books.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 16-Nov-2008 at 19:40
Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 00:59
I meant as in the cavalry


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2008 at 23:45
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Can anyone tell me anything about the Stratiotai?
 
Yes, it is the Greek plural word for "soldiers."
Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2008 at 23:31
Can anyone tell me anything about the Stratiotai?


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2008 at 22:26
Originally posted by akritis akritis wrote:

I think that this chainmail at Byzantine Museum of Athens is Othoman or persian origin.
Late Byzantine period is a very importand and it is very nice that there is a forum about it.
 
Thanks Akritis and welcome to AE.  From what I have heard there are not many pieces extant of late Byzantine armor.  Unfortunately the archaeologists of classical Greece have destroyed much of it trying to get at the ancient materials below.  Is it a prevailing attitude in Greece that the artifacts from its classical heritage are more valuable than the Byzantine ones?
 
Back to Top
akritis View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 09-Sep-2008
Location: greece
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2008 at 14:52
I think that this chainmail at Byzantine Museum of Athens is Othoman or persian origin.
Late Byzantine period is a very importand and it is very nice that there is a forum about it.
 
Back to Top
Patrinos View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 05-Sep-2006
Location: Moreas
Status: Offline
Points: 443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2008 at 12:06
Nice to find you still here ByzEmp.!
And a real one:
It is exhibited in Byzantine and Christian Museum in Athens,and belongs to Ysterobyzantine(Late) period(13th to 15th c.,height 135cm).




Again Saint Theodoros of Terwn,in Byzantine Museum of Athens,15th century.





Edited by Patrinos - 15-Sep-2008 at 12:07
"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
Kolokotronis
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2008 at 23:06
Patrinos, it is good to see you back at the forum again!  Welcome.
 
The images you posted are really nice.  I have seen the frescoes of the the two Theodores before. 
 
The one of Saint George is interesting because of the small rounded shield he carries.  This strikes me as being a classicized representation of the shield.  By the fourteenth century it was not in use as a functional piece of defensive armor. 
 
Concerning the klibania, Theodore Stratelates' klibanion is an example of the fantastic stylization you see in the late period, with the lamellar pieces in a circular pattern.
 
I perused the site from which these came and happened upon this image of Saint Merkourios from the Holy Kosmosoteira Church in Ferres, Thrace:
 
 
The caption at the site says it was painted in 1152.  At any rate, although I could be mistaken, his dress look quite Westernized.  Not only does the long-sleeved tunic look this way, but his long curly hairstyle looks like something you would expect to see in England or France in illuminated manuscripts.
 
Back to Top
Patrinos View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 05-Sep-2006
Location: Moreas
Status: Offline
Points: 443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2008 at 22:36
Saint Theodoros TerwnSaint Theodoros o Stratelates
Saint Demetrius
These three icons were painted about 1290 in the temple of Prwtatos in Agio Oros(Mount Athos)


Saint Georgios,icon of 14th cen.,Athens,Byzantine Museum



Follow this link ( http://eib.xanthi.ilsp.gr/gr/icons.asp?cursort=iconTitle&selectFieldValue=&vpage=3 ),it has some interesting,high quality icons.


Edited by Patrinos - 14-Sep-2008 at 22:53
"Hellenes are crazy but they have a wise God"
Kolokotronis
Back to Top
Benedictus View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 24-Jul-2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benedictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 19:40
Originally posted by Ahenobarbus Ahenobarbus wrote:

From what I can tell, it appears to be rectangular, as it does not seem to taper towards the bottom.

I fully agree with this, as it even seems to look a bit like a Roman scutum, with the way it curves around the body. It seems to be a complex blending of the old and new ages with the addition of the mace (scepter?) and the breastplate (looks to be single piece with bronze banding). I, however, cannot tell simply from the black/white image who the image is depicting, and can offer no authoritative opinion on the matter.

If it is indeed St. Niketas, is this common in depictions of him? Also, which other saints hold similar descriptions/depictions and include a scepter and shield? Is this common of a "warrior-saint" or is this distinction not set aside from normal saints in Byzantine art history?


Edited by Benedictus - 01-Sep-2008 at 19:43
Back to Top
Ahenobarbus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 03-Nov-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahenobarbus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 15:05
From what I can tell, it appears to be rectangular, as it does not seem to taper towards the bottom.
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 03:09
Originally posted by HeorgltheMad HeorgltheMad wrote:

Which battle are we talking about? Which players were involved? From the picture shown above, indeed the walls of Trebizond were very tall. One can easily imagine their own head being shattered by an shell from an arqebusier's rifle. Is this warfare between the Turks and Seljuks?
 
If I am remembering, in this instance we were talking about the siege of Trebizond in 1461.  It is doubtful that the fragmentary sources we have in Georgian, Greek, and Latin say much about the ability of the city to defend itself.  The walls were indeed high and situated at the top of a hill.  Of course, the Ottoman army brought their heavy artillery along.  Supposedly the last Grand Komnenos David II ordered a sally out of the gates but was defeated.  Later an imperial administrator named George Amiroutzes betrayed the emperor and the city to Mehmet II by surrendering without David's approval.
 
Originally posted by HeorgltheMad HeorgltheMad wrote:

A comment was made about the numbers of troops being dramatically diminished in this time period. Was there a general population decline during this period?
Were more citizens and peasants required to continue the upkeep of a formal army?
Were there simply more armies instead of a mass force?
 
Well, after the Black Death of the mid 14th century, which hit Constantinople hard, there was a severe population decline in Byzantium and Europe.  Combine this with economic stagnation and territorial loss and you have the reasons for the decline of the size of the late Byzantine army.
 
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

Of course you can easily understand this is not 14th century but rather 15th-16th
 
Thanks for posting the pictures!  The black and white picture seems to show possibly Saint Niketas, who is sometimes depicted with a mace among other weapons.  The guilded shield is really interesting too.  It is hard to tell, but is it a kite shield or rectangular shaped?
 
The Frankish knight is fascinating.  I wonder what the prototype for the Byzantine painter was?
 
Back to Top
xristar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 05-Nov-2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 1028
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:41
I don't remember exactly, but I remember it was after the fall, thus either late 15th or 16th (more propably). I'm not estimating, it's an official dating.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 395
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 23:35
I would say 16th-17th.
Back to Top
xristar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 05-Nov-2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 1028
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 20:01
 
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

Originally posted by xristar

I was in the local public library of Veroia, searching for some villages of the region. In a book I found pictures of saints of a local byzantine church.

What was notable was that one saint held a mace. (This comment is for what you were discussing above that no saints are holding weapons like maces and axes)

Please show us if you can!  I would like to see pictures if you can get them.


Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

What details in the picture led you to think that the man was Frankish and was wearing plate armor?  Thanks xristar, this picture sounds quite fascinating.  Please post a photograph when you are able to take one!


Of course you can easily understand this is not 14th century but rather 15th-16th

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
Back to Top
HeorgltheMad View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HeorgltheMad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 18:42

Hello BE and all! I have finally returned after a long hiatus and I am pleased to find that discussion has not been lost without my presence ;).

What an interesting discussion on the Trapezuntine army and its dimensions! I am also frequently interested in discussions such as these. Although I do not have the resources available to me as often to look these up, I might add that I believe the numbers would have been greatly exaggerated.

History may have been written by many victors but I am curious:

Which battle are we talking about? Which players were involved? From the picture shown above, indeed the walls of Trebizond were very tall. One can easily imagine their own head being shattered by an shell from an arqebusier's rifle. Is this warfare between the Turks and Seljuks?
 
A comment was made about the numbers of troops being dramatically diminished in this time period. Was there a general population decline during this period?
Were more citizens and peasants required to continue the upkeep of a formal army?
Were there simply more armies instead of a mass force?
 
Any help on the topic would be appreciated.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 17>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.