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    Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 11:36
Due to our desire to highlight history as our main focus at AE, overtly religious topics may become closed if a significant revelance to Islamic empires is not established. Let's keep personal religious beliefs to a minimum at this forum. Instead, religious discussions are the domain of the Intellectual forum and such discussions can take place there as long as a historical context is maintained. Thanks!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 14:27
Good point, I agree
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oTToMAn_TurK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 04:53

i understand that AE's main focus is to highlight history and beleive me i havent become a member here for any other reason, but to increase my knowledge in history. you may see that in my participation in other forum topics. but this islamic topic was a very good way for muslims to debate with each other about the historical development of Islam. through this i dont see any problem with some religious topics to be left to discussion.

As i love all the AE forum topics in general, the Islamic threads was something else for me becouse it is a great way for muslims all over the world to discuss there views and personal beliefs about the religion. i dont understand the need to limit these discussions. how great for muslims from turkey, arabia, iraq, UAE, iran, malaysia, bosnia, albania, etc to debate on there views and put there opinions in. This can not be done in the "Intellectual forum". plz understand that.

Sure we should talk about Islamic empires, but the more important thing is brotherhood and the muslims hav a slighter advantage then others wen having a convosation with someone from another nation becouse we share same (if not exactly, similar) belief.

just to give an example, if there is a conflict going between a turk and arab about history and i try to calm them down (knowing there both muslim ofcourse) by posting a religious quote from kuran or hadis, what happens? it wud be a huge shame to be warned or even banned becouse of that, as i feel i have alot more to learn about history in AE.

thanks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 04:59

Perhaps if there was a space for religious discusion along with the intelectual discusion. Not just for Islamic but for all religions. This would eliminate the need for many wanting to post suchh opnions but with no designasted place to post them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 20:21
Quote As i love all the AE forum topics in general, the Islamic threads was something else for me becouse it is a great way for muslims all over the world to discuss there views and personal beliefs about the religion. i dont understand the need to limit these discussions. how great for muslims from turkey, arabia, iraq, UAE, iran, malaysia, bosnia, albania, etc to debate on there views and put there opinions in. This can not be done in the "Intellectual forum". plz understand that.


First of all, about the focus of our forum...

We understand that history, especially pure history, is not of great audience on the internet. We understand that if this were a forum about politics and world affairs, it would probably be twice as big; that if this forum were about computer gaming or pop culture, it would probably be 10 times as big; that if this forum were about warez, it would probably be 50 times as big.  But we are not going after popularity and shear size of our membership; - we are a history forum and thats what we've chosen to become.

In practice, we do not eliminate every non-history topic from our forums. If we did, then this forum would become very stale. But as you can see, our focus is on history and not religion and current politics, especially in the "history" section of this forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 22:55
I think having an AE Tavern section is enough to keep the forum from growing stale.

As for the sub-forums, I'm sure the mods have noticed I'm having some trouble finding the right forums for my posts - I'd estimate at least half of mine have been moved from, say, Greek History to AE Tavern; from Historical photos to Post-Classical Near East; from Intelligent Discussion to Current Affairs, etc. But that's fine - it doesn't hurt anyone and seeing what gets moved where makes the rules easier to understand.

As for trying to weed out threads devoted to religion as opposed to history, I think it's fine to let a thread or two slip by - but looking at the main page of this sub-form, with a solid 1/3 of the threads closed - it's clear the religious discussion was becoming too much of a focus. And there's really nothing in this word you can't talk about in a historical sense, including religion. Every one of the threads that were closed could easily be re-opened and discussed in a historical sense without changing much about their nature or the points that were made.

I've come here from a forum where the administration and moderation really left a lot to be desired so AE's style seems immeasurably excellent to me, by comparrison. I really love how moderators here seem to weigh intentions. Two people could make identical posts in different contexts, with one doing it in a hurtful way, and the other innocently joking and not expecting anyone to be offended - and moderators take this into consideration.

The forum has a great atmosphere. That's one thing was lacking at places I've been in the past - the atmosphere was one of conflict and aggression, here everyone gets along for the most part and when there is a conflict it seems out of place, not normal. That's something that doesn't come easily, and should be protected.

Anyhow, haven't kissed much ass since I signed up - so there we go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote çok geç Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 23:06

Ottoman Turk and Osmanli both bring a good point about the exclusiveness and speciality of Islamic era in history and the Muslim forumers here.

However, I think changing to Post classical near east will offer an advantage that is enough by itself to justify that change. At least we don't have to deal with every topic being turned into a religious flame war and we have wintessed already many many topics that start with a historical discussion and somehow turns at the end as a pure theologian discussion!! (example: Anti-Arab Agenda to turns into a discussion of Quranic and Hadith verses and Letter of Omar to Yazdagard II to turns into a debate about everything including women rights in Islam )

Regarding having a section of theology and religions, I don't mind that though I don't know where that can fit under AE? maybe theologian history?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 23:12

cok gec stated:

At least we don't have to deal with every topic being turned into a religious flame war and we have wintessed already many many topics that start with a historical discussion and somehow turns at the end as a pure theologian discussion!! (example: Anti-Arab Agenda to turns into a discussion of Quranic and Hadith verses and Letter of Omar to Yazdagard II to turns into a debate about everything including women rights in Islam )

I am agree with that...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 14:09

I personally agree, yes we should keep AE as a historic website.

However a problem occurs due to the fact that much of history has been greatly influenced by religion. Thus it becomes hard esp. for Islamists to back up the decisions of their hisoric heroes and empires due to the fact that when they try to explain the decisions or reasons for certain things which historical reason was due to the Islamic influence. So sometime verses from the Qur'an or Hadith are necesary to show these influences in history with hard evidence. Also when a member is speaking ill of Islam or is giving incorrect information about Islam then again the Islamist feels it to be their duty to put things straight.

When all of a sudden the rules became firmer, many Islamists found this as a personal attack on them. This i knw for a fact from my private discussions, to be honest i too initialy saw this in this view too. Now that i have had time to think things through it is clear that this is not the case.

My advise to the AE mods would be this if ever you think a topic is going out of context or the guidelines of AE please do not simply close the topic, but inform or help to divert the topic into a historic context. One of the good things about AE is how many nations and peoples of diffrent ideollgies can in a mature manner discuss various issues. So please inform and direct, not just simply close topics.



Edited by OSMANLI

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 15:08
Thanks for all the responses. In reality we are trying to maintain an even keel with regards to all of the AE topics. Religion has historical roots no doubt. Much of religious doctrine can be traced back to numerous time frames. This is not an easy venture, promoting history at the cost of current values and issues. I will keep an open mind when it comes to topic closure. Let's all keep our focus back to the historical perspective as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 15:35
Thanks for everyone's replies.

I have a question to raise: How come in the rest of the forum sections, you don't topics about Protestant vs. Catholicism vs. Orthodox, even though Christian religion was as important to "Christian" civilization as Islam was to Islamic civilizations? I don't want to ask this to offend Muslims, but what I'm getting at is that the reason why religion is so prevalent in this forum section is because of Islam's role in modern politics (thus a greater role in ethnic identification, etc..), not necessarily because of its influence in history. Islam and Christianity played equal roles in history, but in modern politics, Islam has a much greater role than Christianity.

I make no further statement about the role of politics in this forum - there are large disagreements in the moderator/admin staff about what type of history we should promote. However, I should say pure history should not include modern-day politics, as opposed to the field of "international studies."




Edited by Imperator Invictus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote çok geç Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 15:59

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus Imperator Invictus wrote:

I have a question to raise: How come in the rest of the forum sections, you don't topics about Protestant vs. Catholicism vs. Orthodox, even though Christian religion was as important to "Christian" civilization as Islam was to Islamic civilizations?

Well If i'm going to answer this from from my prospective, Islamic history is destinctive in its nature than Christian history. First, Early years of Christianity, it didn't start with a political or military development. Also, in later centuries, Christian history is a history of a pure belief (theologian history). However, Islam had a prophet who started a nation, was prosecuted and fought back, expanded, and herefore it is a history of a religion and state. Second, Islamic history is interwind with the Islamic conquests. Third, Islamic history is more unified than Christian history, Islam had once an empire that stretches from the Indus river to the Atlantic Ocean all based on Islam as the stone foundation, so no wonder too that PBS will produce a documentary movie about Islam named "Islam: Empire of Faith". Simply put, the Faith was a decisive factor for much of the Islamic history.

Finally, don't forget that Islam still influence many countries today in their jurisdiction, laws, politics, as oppose to Christian countries who are mainly and purely secular, thus it is hard to connect their actions to religious bases.



Edited by çok geç
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 16:31
I agree with what you wrote. Islam's history is distinct from Christianity in history. However, the previous argument made by Osmali was that religion had a large influence in history (and hence should naturally justfify its prevalence in this history discussions in the forum).

Christianity's role in history was different from Islam's role, but its influence is comparable. (the term "influence" refers back to Osmanli's assertion).

Quote Finally, don't forget that Islam still influence many countries today in their jurisdiction, laws, politics, as oppose to Christian countries who are mainly and purely secular, thus it is hard to connect their actions to religious bases.


Yes, the secular vs. religious aspect of the modern world is basically what I was referring to - that this is the main reason for the presence of religion on this forum, not necessarily because of Islam's influence in history.

Some may disagree, but I do encourage everyone to limit their religious side in looking at history, which I think should be an objective topic in its pure form.


Edited by Imperator Invictus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote çok geç Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 16:58

I agree that religion should not be brought into discussion of pure history, and that is why i supported the change of the title of this forum. However I think you had the wrong impression that we raise religious issues when the issue is about pure history. If you refer back to latest closed topics, you will see the opposite. Pure historical discussions will end up with accusations and religious discussions. I won't go over each incident because I believe Seko has already witnessed and in fact closed some of those topics.

The reason non-Muslim forumers turn the discussion about Islam is that they themselves cannot distinguish what is part of a history only and what is party of religion. For instance, if you have a topic like "Omar letter to Yazdagard II" and you come to claim that Muslim armies massacred and prosecuted the conquered people, you of course show that it is impossible because: 1- you bring evidance that disclaim that, 2- those armies who fought for religious purposes had a religious code that prohibit that. So by now, religion entered the discussion if it wasn't already there. Furthermore, the debator will go on with false accusations of the Prophet's instructing to prosecute and the Quran teaching to kill. It is just out of control mainly because the fact that Islam history is nothing but a history of Islam. Few people are those who ignite or purposely push the religious side of the discussion, and those shall be stopped early and directed.

Regarding modern history, it won't differ that much from that pattern. Someone for example will say the law of whipping those who committed adultery in Saudi Arabia. Well, you would say criticizing this law is a state law, but it is a religious law. How can you avoid discussing religion here?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2006 at 10:57

Due to the abundance of threads on Islam lately, I would like to remind members to keep posts pertinent to a topic at hand. In AE, historical interests should take precedence over theocracy. If, for various reasons, a thread turns into an analysis of religion while members are confronting eachother contrary to AE codes of conduct, the thread may become closed. When intricacies of religion are discussed please do so in a mature and respectfull manner. This way we can tackle serious questions without insulting eachother.

Religion shall not be the guarded domain of its adherents. Analysis would shine some light on various issues.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 06:04

Hi I got multiple queries about, and while I usually diverted the askers attention to this thread, I have re-read it and come to the conculsion that I have to add a bit here, to ease confusion, to say nothing of sparing myself from having to answer the same questions in PM's over and over again.

 
1) The scope of this forum is and will remain (until further notice), the Middle East from the arrival of Islam, until around 1900 AD. Anything in this region before that era, will be moved to another section, as for after 1900 AD, well we are a bit more flexible there and we have currently active threads about the Arab Revolt and the Yom Kippur/ Ramadan War. I would say that the lattar is the maximum cut off point and anything after that certianly belongs in Modern History or in case of Iraq War, the Current Affairs!
 
2) The Geographic scope of the "Middle East" is another bone of contention. It is an imprecise defination, though the classic defination is from Egypt to Iran,  both Pakistan and Turkey are often included, indeed that is the G-8's defination. All the forums have a little overlap, this one has more than most, as a result people have asked whether or not a certain topic might not fit elsewhere. I don't like drawing lines in the sand, but; I feel that you can safely post many of the overlap areas here if they fall within the time frame and are reasonably in areas which are the Mid East in one or another commonly accepted defination. Thus, if there is a topic on anything between the Nile and the Indus, and South of the Oxus, inclusive of the modern day Geo-political entities where these rivers are, that will not be moved.
 
3) The arrival of Islam as geo political force is the start date of this forum, that dose not mean that you have to discuss exclusivly about Islam or its empires.; 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jack_gvr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 04:09
Originally posted by �ok ge� �ok ge� wrote:

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus Imperator Invictus wrote:

I have a question to raise: How come in the rest of the forum sections, you don't topics about Protestant vs. Catholicism vs. Orthodox, even though Christian religion was as important to "Christian" civilization as Islam was to Islamic civilizations?

... First, Early years of Christianity, it didn't start with a political or military development. Also, in later centuries, Christian history is a history of a pure belief (theologian history).

Finally, don't forget that Islam still influence many countries today in their jurisdiction, laws, politics, as oppose to Christian countries who are mainly and purely secular, thus it is hard to connect their actions to religious bases.



There is a strong argument for Christianity as we know it having begun as a political act by the emperor Constantine, attempting to consolidate the imperial hold on a disintegrating empire by unifying it under a new religion designed to replace the no-longer-credible old Roman religion. This phase of Christian development is solidly documented, whereas the semi-historical accounts of Jesus' life and works are somewhat weaker, although generally accepted as genuine except in atheist circles. (The Vatican had been already in use by the old Roman religion for quite a few centuries before Constantine's conversion.)

Furthermore, the church as represented by the Pope and the Vatican was a major political power in Europe for a minimum of 1,000 years following Constantine's conversion, up until the reformation and definitely including the career of Henry VIII of England. 

The institution of the practice of confession appears from a certain point of view to be a genius-level masterstroke of political intelligence gathering, quite aside from its spiritual benefits.

Furthermore, in order to state that "Christian countries who are mainly and purely secular, thus it is hard to connect their actions to religious bases" you have to ignore the political realities of the modern United States of America, the politics of which are as strongly influenced nowadays by Christian thought and political action as many Muslim countries are by Islam.

This comment on political and historical realities should not be taken as an attempt to discredit Christian theology or beliefs, which are of course outside the scope of this discussion.

-- Jack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mercury_Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2008 at 07:52
So, topics like the Medieval Jewish tribes of the Maghrib, Medieval Ethiopia, Vandals after the Islamic conquest that include heavy dosages of pre-islamic references, and discussions of Sudanic tribes that were barely Islamic for centuries, and Medieval Coptic history (including the subjugation of the church under the Catholic church for a while), or the Egypto-British invasion of Sudan or Spain against Morocco, the Arab Slave trade, the rise and exodus of the Bathis, Persia in general, Akbar the great and his unislamic ways.......do these have a place in this forum, or do they belong elsewhere? I would like a moderator's input on this, plan on talking about them soon, among other subjects. I thought this would be the place, but if Egypt is the western and southern most point, I might be out of a place to post them. It kinda feels like it should be here.
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