History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedTop 100 Generals

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 122>
Author
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
Post Options Post Options   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Top 100 Generals
    Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 17:52
My other proposal - Jan Karol Chodkiewicz. His the most famous achivement is the battle of Kircholm 1605 (3700 Polish-Lithuanian soldiers vs 11 000 Swedes). But I think that the battle of Chocim 1621 should be esteemed higher than Kircholm. In this battle Chodkiwicz (and his 600 hussars) charged (and defeated) 10 000 Ottomans.
These are just 2 examples of his great achievements.
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5237
Post Options Post Options   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 17:57
Originally posted by DSMyers1

Peter the Great on            --      Still not sure on this.  I'm looking at tactics and strategy and innovation in those areas, not reforming the army.
 
use of field fortifications, massive use of artillery, effective utilization of dismoutned dragoons. but arguably the tactcial invoations should be attributed to others. but to have Charles XII in the list but not Peter the great just seems wrong to me...

you could remove Marchall Vauban for example.
Back to Top
DSMyers1 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Oklahoma
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
Post Options Post Options   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 18:02
Originally posted by Majkes

Could You describe American's generals on that list and what were their achievments?


Winfield Scott: Distinction in War of 1812, commanded invasion of Mexico in Mexican American War.  The campaign that took Mexico City was brilliantly conducted in the face of superior forces.  Civil War: he devised the Anaconda plan, the overall strategy eventually used to defeat the Confederacy.

Robert E. Lee: Commanded Confederate Army of Virginia.  Absolutely brilliant defense of Virginia for 3+ years, always in the face of superior forces with better equipment and supplies.  Tactical domince.  Probably should be higher.

George S. Patton:  Tank commander in World War II.  Involved in conquest of North Africa and Sicily, then of France.

U. S. Grant: Civil War.  Finally defeated Robert E. Lee.  Brilliant Vicksburg campaign, had a good grasp of modern mass warfare.

Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson: The Shenandoah Valley Campaign in the Civil War was one of the best campaigns ever.  With a small army, he completely baffled and discomfited several forces of superior size, eventually joining Robert E. Lee for the 7 Days Battles.  Had he lived through the Battle of Chancelorsville...the whole Federal Army may well have surrendered.

William Tecumseh Sherman: Another Civil War general of great skill.  Forward thinking leader, became head of army after the war.

George Washington:  Managed to hold an army together in the face of a great power...without his generalship, the United States may never have formed as we know it.  Not the greatest tactician, but understood strategy well.

Nathaniel Greene:  Revolutionary War commander in the South.  Excellent campaigns wearied the British.  Never risked decisive battles, but fought to tire the British.  His success led to the surrender at Yorktown.


Edited by DSMyers1 - 20-Jul-2006 at 19:32
The Top 100 Generals | Leaders



God is my Judge
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
Post Options Post Options   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 18:03
Originally posted by Temujin

at least remove Gustav Adolf from the top 5, that just seems wrong.
 
I agree with Temujin. Gustavus Adolphus should be placed much lower. I can't esteem too much a commander who having 7-9 numerical superiority, couldn't defeat Lithuanian army (at Riga 1621 and at Mitawa 1622). I can't esteem too much a commander who was defeated 2 times by the Poles, although Swedish army outnumbered Polish one (at Tczew 1627 and at Trzciana 1629).
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
Post Options Post Options   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 18:23
Originally posted by DSMyers1


Stanislaw Zolkiewski         --      Looks pretty good... but remember, top 100 means an elite level general.  I would have to take somebody off...  I guess he could go on, somewhere around 90.
 
IMHO, Żółkiewski wasn't as good as many Poles think. It's true that he defeated Russians (at Kłuszyn) who outnumbered his army 5:1 (BTW, a half of Polish army at Kłuszyn was composed of old Roman Rożyński's soldiers). But in fact it was the only one such great Żółkiewski's success. And one should remember that Żółkiewski lost (and was killed in) the battle of Cecora 1620.


Edited by ataman - 20-Jul-2006 at 18:24
Back to Top
DSMyers1 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Oklahoma
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
Post Options Post Options   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 18:30
Additional changes people want.

Please note: I esteem recommendations much more highly if they recommend generals that are not from their country.

Suvorov               --         Move up.  I don't know about that.  He's already the highest from the 18th century except Marlborough, Frederick the Great, and Eugene of Savoy.  Should he go above Prince Eugene?

Von Moltke           --         Move up.  I agree that he was by far the best of the 19th century after Napoleon.  But above Wellington?  That's pretty heady heights.  I could move him to 16th.

Roman Rożyński   --         I've never heard of him...

Nurhaci                --         Interesting.  I hadn't thought of the Manchu.  About where should he go?

Lĭ ShìMín               --         Was he really a general, or just a great ruler?

Jan Karol Chodkiewicz      Another Polish general of whom I was unaware.  I should study Polish history more.

Peter the Great    --         I'm still resistant to putting him on the list.  And you're right, maybe I should take Vauban off.  However, his siege skills were awesome...and I'm an engineer.  (Doesn't that count for anything?  Oh wait.  That's bias.)

Gustavus Adolphus         Much lower?  I don't think so.  A little lower, perhaps.  He will be below Frederick the Great in the next iteration of the list.  His conduction of the Thirty Years War was very good, and his tactical innovations, including mobile artillery, were VERY important.

Sometime tomorrow I'll put up the next iteration of the list.


Edited by DSMyers1 - 20-Jul-2006 at 19:32
The Top 100 Generals | Leaders



God is my Judge
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 18:55
Well if Karl XII is on the list then he should be equal to Peter the Great.
 
DSMyers: It is Suvorov. Suvorov's accomplishments could arguably equal to Frederick the Great's so I can't tell anything about him...
 
Anothers from antiquity: how have you missed them: Antiochus III (Ok, was beaten by Superb Romans but was pretty uber himself too) and Ramses II. You must have a pharao... equality...
 
Maybe you could have a battles won - lost rating? That would make things easier...


Edited by rider - 20-Jul-2006 at 18:58
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
BigL View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 817
Post Options Post Options   Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 19:37
Originally posted by DSMyers1




Nurhaci                --         Interesting.  I hadn't thought of the Manchu.  About where should he go?

Lĭ ShìMín               --         Was he really a general, or just a great ruler?

 
 
Li shi min is one of chinas greatest generals ever.Not to mention hes the greatest leader of all time.Cry
 
Nurhaci fought his way through 500 enemy with just him and his brother.A great warrirorClap
Back to Top
DSMyers1 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Oklahoma
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
Post Options Post Options   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 19:37
Originally posted by rider

Well if Karl XII is on the list then he should be equal to Peter the Great.
 
DSMyers: It is Suvorov. Suvorov's accomplishments could arguably equal to Frederick the Great's so I can't tell anything about him...
 
Anothers from antiquity: how have you missed them: Antiochus III (Ok, was beaten by Superb Romans but was pretty uber himself too) and Ramses II. You must have a pharao... equality...
 
Maybe you could have a battles won - lost rating? That would make things easier...


Karl XII was the general in the battles; Peter typically let his generals handle the battles.

Suvorov--sorry for the typo.  I still don't think he can move up much.

Antiochus III--I already have nearly as many ancient generals as more modern ones.  And he did lose.

Ramses II was not a great general.  His exploits are not as "great" as they are well publicized.  As for a Pharaoh--I have Thutmose III.
The Top 100 Generals | Leaders



God is my Judge
Back to Top
DSMyers1 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Oklahoma
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
Post Options Post Options   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 19:39
Originally posted by BigL

 
Li shi min is one of chinas greatest generals ever.Not to mention hes the greatest leader of all time.Cry
 
Nurhaci fought his way through 500 enemy with just him and his brother.A great warrirorClap


Could you get me to some more information about Li shi min's actual campaigns?

Nurhaci certainly sounds like a good warrior!!
The Top 100 Generals | Leaders



God is my Judge
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 19:56
Originally posted by DSMyers1

Originally posted by rider

Well if Karl XII is on the list then he should be equal to Peter the Great.
 


Karl XII was the general in the battles; Peter typically let his generals handle the battles.
 
So we could assume that Peter's Generals don't reflect his level and let Karl XII be better than him? Would fit for me.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
DSMyers1 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Oklahoma
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
Post Options Post Options   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 19:59
Originally posted by rider

So we could assume that Peter's Generals don't reflect his level and let Karl XII be better than him? Would fit for me.


Well, this is only a ranking of individual generals.  If it were ranking leaders, Peter would be far above Karl XII.  I've got to draw the line on who to rank somewhere.
The Top 100 Generals | Leaders



God is my Judge
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
Post Options Post Options   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 20:41
Originally posted by DSMyers1


Gustavus Adolphus         Much lower?  I don't think so.  A little lower, perhaps.  He will be below Frederick the Great in the next iteration of the list.  His conduction of the Thirty Years War was very good, and his tactical innovations, including mobile artillery, were VERY important.
 
Don't get me wrong. I don't claim that he was poor general, but I think that his achievements are exaggerated. I'll give you examples...
 
- Disproportion of forces
I know a lot of generals who are not on your list although they won battels where enemies outnumbered them 3 times (or more). Can you write any battle won by GA, where his enemies outnumbered him at least 3:1? I am not aware of any... But I know a battle where GA's army outnumbered the Poles 2:1 and lost (the battle of Trzciana 1629).
 
- Innovations
Well, first of all many GA's innovations weren't his innovations (for example many people think that the tactic of Swedish cavalry was something new. But it is mistake. It was a French tactic used tens years before GA introduced it to Swedish army).
Second of all, it is not so important what kind of innovations he introduced, but what these innovations gave his army. So, what did these innovations give? Not too much. GA usually avoided open field battles against the Poles and Lithuanians (I have already written examples).
 
- GA's conduction of the Thirty Years War
I agree with you. His conduction of the Thirty Years War was very good. But it is more political than military achievement.
 
I recognize GA as a great politician-leader and a good commander, but the 5th position on your list of 'top 100 generals' is too high. IMHO, he should be muuuuuuuch lower.
Back to Top
BigL View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 817
Post Options Post Options   Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 00:16
[/QUOTE]

Could you get me to some more information about Li shi min's actual campaigns?

Nurhaci certainly sounds like a good warrior!!
[/QUOTE]
 
Well he unified china with a series of stunning campaigns.i read a book medieval chinese warfare whcih was in detail i suggest u read this,or osprey Armies of Tang.It was often the Charge of the Tang cataphracts which was personally led by li shi min (like alexander) that decided the battle.
 
 
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 02:56
And now when I start to consider, why do we use the Latin form of Gustav Adolf??? Ununderstandable.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
Post Options Post Options   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 03:28
Originally posted by rider

And now when I start to consider, why do we use the Latin form of Gustav Adolf??? Ununderstandable.
 
Well, I am under the inluence of Brzezinski's Ospreys about GA Smile.


Edited by ataman - 21-Jul-2006 at 03:29
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1106
Post Options Post Options   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 03:48
Originally posted by DSMyers1

Roman Rożyński   --         I've never heard of him...
 
Don't worry Smile. Even Polish historians seems to forget about this great commander Unhappy. Why? Because he didn't command state army, but he commanded soldiers (private armies of Polish magnates) who fought for False Dimitriyes. I think that Russians remember him better than the Poles.

Originally posted by DSMyers1


Jan Karol Chodkiewicz      Another Polish general of whom I was unaware.  I should study Polish history more.
 
And here is a short info about Chodkiewicz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Karol_Chodkiewicz
 
I can also recommend you Brzezinski's Ospreys about Polish army. There are also a lot of pages in net (in English) which describe Polish military history.
 
 
Back to Top
Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Porphyrygenitus Augustii

Joined: 18-Jul-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1923
Post Options Post Options   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 11:26
How about some Hittites? They were very sucessful Generals, and i think that two that should be included are - Mursili I (1620-1595 BC) Who is credited with the Sack of Babylon and the Conquest of Syria and Perhaps most Famously, The Join wars on Egypt concluding with the Battle of Kadesh where the world's first peace treaty was signed- Suppiluliuma I and Mursili II. They split Ramses II's forces in two and almost won the battle. I am not claiming that they deserve high places, but i believe that the forcing of a nation such as Egypt under Ramses II to sign a peace treaty is definatly worth some credit. These three men deserve some kind of place
"Don't raise your voice - we all know how lovely it is!"
Triano, in "Mosterella" by Plautus! Read it...now!
Back to Top
DSMyers1 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Oklahoma
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
Post Options Post Options   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 11:46
Okay, here is the updated Top 100 Generals List

Ranking Name Born Died Country
1 Alexander the Great 356 323 Macedonia
2 Napoleon Bonaparte 1769 1821 France
3 Temujin (Genghis Khan) 1167 1227 Mongols
4 Hannibal Barca 241 183 Carthage
5 Frederick II of Prussia 1712 1786 Prussia
6 John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough) 1650 1722 England
7 Julius Caesar 100 BC 44 BC Rome
8 Gustavus II Adolphus 1594 1632 Sweden
9 Philip II of Macedon 382 BC 336 BC Macedonia
10 Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne 1611 1675 France
11 Belisarius 505 565 Byzantines
12 Heraclius 575 641 Byzantines
13 Gaius Marius 157 BC 86 BC Rome
14 Raimondo Montecuccoli 1608 1680 Austria
15 Scipio Africanus the Older 237 BC 183 BC Rome
16 Eugene of Savoy 1663 1736 Austria
17 Jan Žižka 1370 1424 Bohemia
18 Subotai   1248 Mongols
19 Sir Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington) 1769 1852 England
20 Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke 1800 1891 Prussia
21 Cyrus the Great 590 BC 529 BC Persia
22 Tamerlane 1336 1405 Mongols
23 Maurice comte de Saxe 1696 1750 France
24 Aleksandr Suvorov 1729 1800 Russia
25 Suleiman I 1494 1566 Ottomans
26 Louis Nicholas Davout 1770 1823 France
27 Erich von Manstein 1887 1973 Germany
28 Epaminondas 418 BC 362 BC Greece
29 Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba (El Gran Capitán) 1453 1515 Spain
30 Sebastien Le prestre de Vauban 1633 1707 France
31 Lucius Cornelius Sulla 138 BC  78 BC Rome
32 Thutmose III   ca 1540 BC Egypt
33 Heinz Wilhelm Guderian 1888 1954 Germany
34 Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de Condé 1621 1686 France
35 Leo III the Isaurian 685 741 Byzantines
36 Khalid ibn al-Walid 584 642 Arabs
37 Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck 1870 1964 Germany
38 Winfield Scott 1786 1866 United States
39 Albrecht Wallenstein 1583 1634 Austria
40 Takeda Shingen 1521 1573 Japan
41 Nadir Shah 1688 1747 Persia
42 Konstantin Rokossovsky 1896 1968 Russia
43 Alexius I Komnenos 1048 1118 Byzantines
44 Maurice of Nassau 1567 1625 Netherlands
45 Tiglath-Pileser III   727 BC Assyria
46 Janos Hunyadi 1387 1456 Hungary
47 Duke of Parma [Alessandro Farnese] 1545 1592 Spain
48 Toyotomi Hideyoshi 1536 1598 Japan
49 Narses 478 573 Byzantines
50 Qi Jiguang 1528 1588 China
51 Oda Nobunaga 1534 1582 Japan
52 Robert E. Lee 1807 1870 Confederate
53 Claude-Louis-Hector de Villars 1653 1734 France
54 William Joseph Slim 1891 1970 England
55 Charles XII 1682 1718 Sweden
56 Flavius Stilicho 359 408 Rome
57 Oliver Cromwell 1599 1658 England
58 Babur 1483 1530 Mughal
59 Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus) 214 275 Rome
60 Jan III Sobieski 1629 1696 Poland
61 Georgy Zhukov 1896 1974 Russia
62 André Masséna 1758 1817 France
63 Robert Guiscard 1015 1085 Normandy
64 Erwin Rommel 1891 1944 Germany
65 George S. Patton 1885 1945 United States
66 Emperor Taizong of Tang (Lĭ ShìMín) 599 649 China
67 Jean Lannes 1769 1809 France
68 Charlemagne 742 814 France
69 Selim I 1470 1520 Ottomans
70 Ulysses Simpson Grant 1822 1885 United States
71 Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson 1824 1863 Confederate
72 Kangxi 1654 1722 China
73 Johan t'Serclaes, Count of Tilly 1559 1632 Austria
74 Stanisław Koniecpolski 1590 1646 Poland
75 Lucius Septimius Severus 146 211 Rome
76 François Henri de Montmorency-Bouteville (Luxembourg) 1628 1695 France
77 David   965 BC Israel
78 Marcus Claudius Marcellus 268 BC 208 BC Rome
79 Constantine I  272 337 Rome
80 Sun Tzu 400 BC 330 BC China
81 Archduke Charles of Austria 1771 1847 Austria
82 Jebe   1225 Mongols
83 Pyotr Bagration 1765 1812 Russia
84 Shaka Zulu 1787 1828 Zulu
85 William T. Sherman 1820 1891 United States
86 Pyrrhus of Epirus 312 BC 272 BC Greece
87 Trajan 53 117 Rome
88 Scipio Africanus the Younger 185 BC 129 BC Rome
89 Edward I 1239 1307 England
90 Nathan B. Forrest 1821 1877 Confederate
91 Robert the Bruce 1274 1329 Scotland
92 William the Conqueror 1027 1087 Normandy
93 Ban Chao 32 102 China
94 George Washington 1732 1799 United States
95 Richard I 1157 1199 England
96 James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose 1612 1650 England
97 Nathanael Greene 1742 1786 United States
98 Chandragupta Maurya   298 BC India
99 Saladin  1138 1193 Arabs
100 Attila the Hun 406 453 Hun 

How does that look to everyone?
The Top 100 Generals | Leaders



God is my Judge
Back to Top
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2882
Post Options Post Options   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 11:55
Better, but Napoleon and Caesar should be the first two generals, not Alexander. Good job moving up Robert E. Lee and Jan Zizka. 

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 122>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.